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  1. #121
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    ^ Hassli did great. We did not on that play. We had a solid game. Hassli for my money is one of my favourite strikers in the MLS.

    I am sorry, I did not want to make a big issue of it, I did not expect the reaction to the comment, I understand how it happens, at full speed, Morgan marks his player tight and follows him across, nobody takes up his position, and Henry is following the play, but fails to pick up the striker, who ghost into the open space. It happens. I do not think it is the end of the world. But the more we cut down these mistakes the further we go.

  2. #122
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    Your guys knowledge and passion of the game deserves a tip of the hat. You can learn more about the sport on here than most places. It is important to note that all comments, reactions, anger and joy displayed on here is all for one cause and one purpose, TFC Glory!

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by trane View Post
    ^ Hassli did great. We did not on that play. We had a solid game. Hassli for my money is one of my favourite strikers in the MLS.

    I am sorry, I did not want to make a big issue of it, I did not expect the reaction to the comment, I understand how it happens, at full speed, Morgan marks his player tight and follows him across, nobody takes up his position, and Henry is following the play, but fails to pick up the striker, who ghost into the open space. It happens. I do not think it is the end of the world. But the more we cut down these mistakes the further we go.
    You can only call it a "mistake" in the context of a better league, like Serie A. In MLS, very few players could do what Hassli did without a second touch, and the marking would have been sufficient. I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying about positioning in a better league, I'm just saying that in MLS, close marking a guy as far out as Hassli normally would not be a good idea, as 99% of the time, the guy on the wing will either (1) play it directly in front of the net, (2) fail to make the pass, or (3) the striker will chest it down or take two touches. It's wise to plan strategy around the 99% probability, not the 1% probability. How many goals like Hassli's have we seen in MLS this year (or even ever)? Yet in Europe, you see those kinds of goals much more commonly.

    This kind of marking is actually pretty common in MLS. For example, you'd often see, say Soolsma out on the wing receive a pass with a defender giving about the same space to him that Henry gave to Hassli, but before he could get a shot away, there is already a defender or two on him.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 05-17-2012 at 09:57 PM.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by trane View Post
    ^ I agree, about my second post. But it gets frustrating.
    You shouldn't have to apologize when someone insults you for being right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    You can only call it a "mistake" in the context of a better league, like Serie A.
    No, it was a mistake in my mens league. Your 99%/1% dichotomy is nonsense.

    Zonal marking or not 100% of the time you shouldn't give attackers that much space in the penalty area. To date, in the history of soccer, space has still never scored a goal.

    There's a lot of other ways that play could have ended in a goal that don't involve a wonder strike. Henry is in no position to challenge for a header if Rochat puts the ball in higher towards the back post. If Hassli does take a good first touch Henry's need to close the large amount of space between him and Hassli at speed would have given Hassli the opportunity to check back inside him onto his left foot and curl a shot to the back post. Finally, Hassli could have used his first touch to take himself away from Henry shielding him off with his plant foot in the process and hitting a hard low right footed shot. It'd be from a slightly wider angle but that's probably the more high percentage play in that situation. Just because Hassli went with the lower percentage play but executed it spectacularly doesn't mean it couldn't have been defended better. Again: you don't give that much space to attackers in your own penalty box. Cutting out a high ball into your own box is the food and drink of a centreback who reads the game well.

    And trane's not wrong about the team's shape either. There's all sorts of problems that lead to that goal and left Henry without a man up situation at the back. Don't be blinded by the quality of the finish.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by BHTC Mike View Post
    You shouldn't have to apologize when someone insults you for being right.


    No, it was a mistake in my mens league. Your 99%/1% dichotomy is nonsense.

    Zonal marking or not 100% of the time you shouldn't give attackers that much space in the penalty area. To date, in the history of soccer, space has still never scored a goal.

    There's a lot of other ways that play could have ended in a goal that don't involve a wonder strike. Henry is in no position to challenge for a header if Rochat puts the ball in higher towards the back post. If Hassli does take a good first touch Henry's need to close the large amount of space between him and Hassli at speed would have given Hassli the opportunity to check back inside him onto his left foot and curl a shot to the back post. Finally, Hassli could have used his first touch to take himself away from Henry shielding him off with his plant foot in the process and hitting a hard low right footed shot. It'd be from a slightly wider angle but that's probably the more high percentage play in that situation. Just because Hassli went with the lower percentage play but executed it spectacularly doesn't mean it couldn't have been defended better. Again: you don't give that much space to attackers in your own penalty box. Cutting out a high ball into your own box is the food and drink of a centreback who reads the game well.

    And trane's not wrong about the team's shape either. There's all sorts of problems that lead to that goal and left Henry without a man up situation at the back. Don't be blinded by the quality of the finish.
    It wasn't a mistake of shape.

    It's not blind to give Henry a break on this, really, because he's 19 -- but also because he didn't give Hassli too much space, he was suckered by Hassli drifting centrally, as he was marking him tight. Then Hassli pulled off his back shoulder towards the back post -- and it was a set play, so the cross was timed with the move and Henry had almost no time to adjust. 9/10 the striker tries to bring that down and, if you watch the replay, he still only got the shot off by a step.

    The commentators even said Hassli had been practicing it the day before the game with a surprisingly high success quotient.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    It wasn't a mistake of shape.
    The team's shape is all at sea after De Guzman's half tackle. The play's behind him at that point and Rochat's on an unobstructed run towards the box. That pulls Hall in from RB which gave Rochat the option of going back to his left to a, by that point, completely unmarked player. Meanwhile a good run from what looks like Le Toux has pulled Morgan too central and left a ton of space for Hassli to drift into to the left of Henry. Rochat sees Hassli in space and instead of leading Le Toux - which Henry had moved more central to prevent - picks him out with a good diagonal ball. There was danger from any of three passes Rochat could have picked and we only had men in position to defend one of them. To me that sounds like a team who acted like the game was over and switched off at a vital moment. Yes, it's good runs, a good ball, and a ridiculous finish; Vancouver executely nearly perfectly from the restart. It's not the sort of calamitous defending we're used to where we feel like we've practically scored for them. But it's not some indefensible supergoal either.

    And, contrary to Oldtimer's assertion, I bet if you give Hassli that chance 10 times, with that much space, he keeps it on net half the time and scores two or three times. He might never hit it quite that sweetly and manage to slice it upper near corner with so much velocity that the keeper just watches but executing a shot like that and keeping it on target isn't outside the range of his capabilities. These guys aren't scrubs. They're pro footballers who, like you acknowledge, train at this stuff every day. Hell, Chad Barrett once hit a beautiful turning volley at BMO Field and he's not half the talent Hassli is.

    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    It's not blind to give Henry a break on this, really, because he's 19
    It's blind to suggest that goal was indefensible. The strike was unstoppable but the goal could have been prevented.

    And who's not giving Henry a break? He's a kid doing a job, where he should just be an understudy at this point, better than most of the other senior pros we've tried there. Doesn't mean that he couldn't have done better on that play and won't expect to in the future. Doesn't mean his (more senior) team mates should have left him in that position without a man up in defense, if not more, with a 1-0 lead away in injury time in the first place.
    Last edited by BHTC Mike; 05-18-2012 at 06:50 AM.

  7. #127
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    Not sure if Morgan was man marking someon there, Le Toux, but Henry didn't seem put out by Morgan moving. Henry was too far off of Hassli, and didn't give the shot enough respect. His close down seemed a bit weak. Maybe he was tired. I'm going to chalk this one up to inexperience on his part. Which, while not fine, is bearable, he's what 19-20 now?? Bottom line as a defender, assume the worst. Henry played like he believed nothing could come from that cross and he got burned as a result. Tough break for a young talented player, I'm sure he'll learn from it. Sucks 'cause from what I hear he had a great game (only caught the last 20 myself) Is it just me, or has the D been better since Cann came back from injury? He always seemed to be a bit of a boss back there to me.

  8. #128
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    Add up the career minutes of either Morgan or Henry, or combine them if you like and then compare them to the experience of Hassli. Mistakes, or simply getting beat, are going to happen when you have an inexperienced roster. It's not rocket science. If you want to see fewer mistakes or players getting beat, demand more experienced and/or the best players available for each position. With the MLS's youngest average starting roster, we have neither.

    That said, a mistake or getting beat doesn't take away from the solid effort and positive result from the game.

  9. #129
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    I see what you guys are saying about Morgan, he was out of position, and that did create space where there shouldn't have been. In many cases that wouldn't have conceded a goal, but in this case it did. I still don't fault Henry, he was positioned as well as he could have been given the positioning of the rest of defense.

    BHTC Mike, you made a good point about Rochat's run, his ability to make that cross was crucial. The goal was as much about Rochat as it was about Hassli.

    I've seen a lot of MLS games where those kind of errors didn't result in a goal. Unfortunately, in this case it did. The defense wasn't shambolic, but it wasn't perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    That said, a mistake or getting beat doesn't take away from the solid effort and positive result from the game.
    That's how I feel. the defense is improving.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 05-18-2012 at 07:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I see what you guys are saying about Morgan, he was out of position, and that did create space where there shouldn't have been. In many cases that wouldn't have conceded a goal, but in this case it did. I still don't fault Henry, he was positioned as well as he could have been given the positioning of the rest of defense.

    That's how I feel. the defense is improving.
    i think he was giving him so much space because he was expecting hassli to play it off the chest and boot it low. even with the volley, if you were him and had to choose, there was a 90% chance he was going far post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I see what you guys are saying about Morgan, he was out of position, and that did create space where there shouldn't have been. In many cases that wouldn't have conceded a goal, but in this case it did. I still don't fault Henry, he was positioned as well as he could have been given the positioning of the rest of defense.

    BHTC Mike, you made a good point about Rochat's run, his ability to make that cross was crucial. The goal was as much about Rochat as it was about Hassli.

    I've seen a lot of MLS games where those kind of errors didn't result in a goal. Unfortunately, in this case it did. The defense wasn't shambolic, but it wasn't perfect.



    That's how I feel. the defense is improving.
    Obviously I agree with BHTC Mike, but I love both Morgan and Henry, and I believe that they have done great and will only improve. So much of being a good defender is mental, and you never stop learning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    With morgan's crosses, I have to say no points awarded for robotic whifs into the box without a target. Passes work when there are people on the end of them. I know u have to probe space at times but you need to feel out the game and know when to do things. Guys should be runnint harder off the ball as well though.
    This is a good point, and I have certainly noticed Morgan do what you have described. There have been times in other games where Morgan has done a good job of drawing the defender closer to him into the corner only to waste the opportunity by automatically sending a cross into the box. Morgan needs to improve upon recognizing his available options. Sometimes Morgan has failed to observe a teammate who moved into the area just vacated by Morgan and the player marking him. Sometimes you have to lead a teammate into the space created with a pass. Such awareness is a step up in skill level and it's obvious that Morgan will have to build towards gaining it. All that being said, some of Morgan's crosses in previous matches were particularly poor. Erratic or errant balls going out of touch or directly to the opposition. There was some definite improvement in the trajectory of Morgan's crosses in the game against VWFC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BHTC Mike View Post
    The team's shape is all at sea after De Guzman's half tackle. The play's behind him at that point and Rochat's on an unobstructed run towards the box. That pulls Hall in from RB which gave Rochat the option of going back to his left to a, by that point, completely unmarked player. Meanwhile a good run from what looks like Le Toux has pulled Morgan too central and left a ton of space for Hassli to drift into to the left of Henry. Rochat sees Hassli in space and instead of leading Le Toux - which Henry had moved more central to prevent - picks him out with a good diagonal ball. There was danger from any of three passes Rochat could have picked and we only had men in position to defend one of them. To me that sounds like a team who acted like the game was over and switched off at a vital moment. Yes, it's good runs, a good ball, and a ridiculous finish; Vancouver executely nearly perfectly from the restart. It's not the sort of calamitous defending we're used to where we feel like we've practically scored for them. But it's not some indefensible supergoal either.

    And, contrary to Oldtimer's assertion, I bet if you give Hassli that chance 10 times, with that much space, he keeps it on net half the time and scores two or three times. He might never hit it quite that sweetly and manage to slice it upper near corner with so much velocity that the keeper just watches but executing a shot like that and keeping it on target isn't outside the range of his capabilities. These guys aren't scrubs. They're pro footballers who, like you acknowledge, train at this stuff every day. Hell, Chad Barrett once hit a beautiful turning volley at BMO Field and he's not half the talent Hassli is.

    It's blind to suggest that goal was indefensible. The strike was unstoppable but the goal could have been prevented.

    And who's not giving Henry a break? He's a kid doing a job, where he should just be an understudy at this point, better than most of the other senior pros we've tried there. Doesn't mean that he couldn't have done better on that play and won't expect to in the future. Doesn't mean his (more senior) team mates should have left him in that position without a man up in defense, if not more, with a 1-0 lead away in injury time in the first place.
    good commentary mike, and trane too ... we did switch off in one sense or another in the last couple minutes of that game ... how many fouls did we commit in the last few minutes? in our defensive third? the caps took that last one quickly, rochat had lots of room and options, and we had (if i recall correctly) only 5 or 6 players behind the ball at that time ... recipe for disaster ... and we've seen this too many times before in injury time, it's like we collectively don't have the mental toughness to finish 90+ minutes.

    yes hassli's volley was amazing, but it really could have been prevented, we just looked tired, half the team not in a position to defend, waiting for the whistle
    Last edited by lobo; 05-18-2012 at 12:23 PM.

  14. #134
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    ^ I agree that this was an example of us letting our guard down late.


    I was going to mention it but I did not want to be too negative after a solid defensive game.

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    Only now is my jaw back off the floor from that Hassli goal. Great to get 1-1 draw there, but that finish was incredible. I'm partial to sweet volleys, but even so this was the best goal I've seen this side of the pond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DangerRed View Post
    Only now is my jaw back off the floor from that Hassli goal. Great to get 1-1 draw there, but that finish was incredible. I'm partial to sweet volleys, but even so this was the best goal I've seen this side of the pond.
    Hassli's goal vs Seattle was better IMO.
    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yohan View Post
    Hassli's goal vs Seattle was better IMO.
    Assuing you're talking about last June, yeah, no question that was a peach too, but soooooo lucky. I tough the way he finished this week was so unstoppable more than anything.

  18. #138
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    We did good to get the away goal, but giving up the late goal was a shame. A great strike, but Hassli was clearly way too open. These mistakes are habitual with TFC, and inexperienced or not Henry is a pro with a job to do. He had a great game until that point, unfortunately the WHOLE game counts. Looking forward to Wednesday.

 

 

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