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  1. #301
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    Hey Guys, theres a photo of the damage done.. :




    Got it from Kurtis Larson's twitter.

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    * The players suggested pressuring higher up the pitch, saying half-field pressure (which we played in every game except Santos, L.A. and Seattle) is gonna get you slaughtered in a league where you need to make the other team make mistakes. DeKlerk and Winter accepted this.
    I'd've thought that if anything it would be the coaches advocating the full-field pressing game, but the players being reluctant to buy in.

    Typically the 4-3-3, 3-4-3 plus the method of play that Winter is espousing is played as a full-field tactic, so it seems odd that he'd coach only doing it for half the pitch.
    a ha ha heh he hoo.. ha

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    welp.. good to know that their fans went home with something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BHTC Mike View Post
    Six years in, an 0-0-8 record, no playoffs in the past or on the horizon and there's still people who act like MLS, the league we play in, is below us? Some things never change I guess.

    The Club World Cup is a week long, 8 game, 6 club tournament played half way around the world from us and out of season for half the teams participating. It's a fun little diversion that exists to make sponsors happy and give FIFA some direct role in the club game. Maybe one day it'll grow into something more serious - it would do well to reach the level of seriousness the Confederations Cup has achieved! - but no one is rearranging their life because of it. And just participating isn't going to suddenly put TFC on the map globally. Quick, without wiking it, who were all six clubs who participated in the 2010 version? What was the final score of the final?

    The CONCACAF Champions League will never be the UEFA Champions League. CONCACAF is a weak confederation mostly made up of very poor countries. Outside of the Mexicans and a few clubs from Central America there are no big scalps to be had. Even then, the success in the competition will not resonate globally because the Mexicans don't have to prove themselves against rigourous competition to win; to do that they go to Copa Libertadores. Ironically, much of the serious competition we face in the tournament and the only long term threat to Mexican dominance comes from other MLS clubs: the very same clubs that you claim playing against doesn't hold much appeal.

    TFC will never be a credible club until they start challenging for honours in the league they play in. That's the way it is every where else in the world. No club would ever get away with giving anything less than full commitment to league success: the league makes up the majority of any team's schedule and is where most people watch their team play. It doesn't matter that MLS is an American league and TFC is a Canadian club; MLS is OUR league. From the beginning of the Canadian Championship to the end of the Club World Cup it would take TFC 13 games to be crowned World Champions under the current formats: 4 ACC, 10 CCL, 3 CWC. Notwithstanding that such a run is incredibly improbable and that focusing on that at the expense of a 34 game (plus playoffs) league season is both delusional and deeply insulting to season ticket holders (who paid in advance for a league season) can you actually imagine what it'd be like to lose 34 games in one season? We'd be more famous globally for being the team that "never won" than we could ever achieve with one million Voyageurs Cup wins. We'd be an international laughing stock not just an MLS one.

    Enjoy last night. Celebrate it. Laugh at Montreal for 12 more months. But writing off the league we play in as if it's not just as serious a competition as any other domestic league in the world is doing MLS a distinct disservice and the sort of self-loathing crap, in this case masquerading as Canadian nationalism, that confirms for me that there'll always be a group of people for whom TFC can never be good enough.
    You're jumping to conclusions infering I have no respect or interest in the league. I do. But like other leagues it's a stepping stone to a regional tournament. Which is a stepping stone to a worldwide tournament.

    That's a fact. How much respect each level of competition has is up to each and every one of us. My stressing regional and world tournament here is because the league is accepted as what we watch anyway regardless of talent level or popularity widespread.

    No need to demean tournaments that will serve as bigger platforms in future if the game develops as it should. The elitism goes both ways here. Many demean our young league to compare it to foreign leagues so it stands to reason even some who follow our young league would demean our regions tournament and compare it to other tournaments.

    Others take offense at our method of qualification. That method may change but regardless I'll support the tournament for the growth of the game here.

    I don't ignore the MLS season but I prefer a bigger tournament that spans more countries and helps the regions growth regardless how much $$$ it makes or how attended it is.
    FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER

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    FYRC - what I see as the biggest factor in growth for TFC and thus the sport in our area is success in the league. It will keep the fan base entrenched - keep the kids interested at a young age (so they dream of playing for TFC instead of the Leafs).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    You're jumping to conclusions infering I have no respect or interest in the league. I do. But like other leagues it's a stepping stone to a regional tournament. Which is a stepping stone to a worldwide tournament.

    That's a fact. How much respect each level of competition has is up to each and every one of us. My stressing regional and world tournament here is because the league is accepted as what we watch anyway regardless of talent level or popularity widespread.

    No need to demean tournaments that will serve as bigger platforms in future if the game develops as it should. The elitism goes both ways here. Many demean our young league to compare it to foreign leagues so it stands to reason even some who follow our young league would demean our regions tournament and compare it to other tournaments.

    Others take offense at our method of qualification. That method may change but regardless I'll support the tournament for the growth of the game here.

    I don't ignore the MLS season but I prefer a bigger tournament that spans more countries and helps the regions growth regardless how much $$$ it makes or how attended it is.
    I definitely don't understand some people's preference to the cup games. The TFC season is 95% league games and 5% cup games - wouldn't you prefer to see your team do well in the majority of games, not the minority? I personally don't care about the cup games - I think they are a sideshow to the main entertainment during a season. I'd MUCH prefer TFC to win the league rather than the CCL. I'd equally much prefer to see TFC win most league games. A cup run is fun, but its not the bread and butter of the season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by king dave View Post
    Here is what I observed @ the game Wed. night.
    First TFC game @ BMO I have been to in over a year.
    I was 9 rows back of the players benches for the 90.
    TFC looked far more aggresive off the hop.
    What I found interesting was that Winter would rise out of his folding chair every 20-30 seconds and make a muted whistle directed at certain players on the pitch.
    On almost every occasion the player(s) either didn't hear him or, on a few occasions within 15-20 yards, were purposely ignoring him.
    Winter tried several times to get a players attention and quickly returned to his folded chair, sat down with arms folded.
    Declerck was clearly in charge Wed. night.
    Now what do you think the players meeting this past week was about?
    I think the team is composed and very professional and want a new manager and went about it in the right manner.
    The last thing you need in an 0-8 club is for players to start calling out the coach for whatever reasons they have. Only gonna make it worse for everyone.
    I think the team just decided to coach themselves Wed. night and it was far better than before.
    Winter? Gone in 2 weeks I think.
    KD.
    That's an interesting thought. I watched on TV and I saw several moments from the bench that had me thinking: "who's the head coach here?". Although it's all speculative at best. I guess we'll be waiting for Winter to 'coach' from the press box because he prefers the view

    The pressing up high thing mentioned by jloome seems incredibly obvious and I can't believe I never thought of that before. It does make sense and go with the philosophy of trying to get the other team to make mistakes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T-boy View Post
    I definitely don't understand some people's preference to the cup games. The TFC season is 95% league games and 5% cup games - wouldn't you prefer to see your team do well in the majority of games, not the minority? I personally don't care about the cup games - I think they are a sideshow to the main entertainment during a season. I'd MUCH prefer TFC to win the league rather than the CCL. I'd equally much prefer to see TFC win most league games. A cup run is fun, but its not the bread and butter of the season.
    Why does one league HAVE to supercede the other?

    Why does one have to be the "bread and butter"? (P.S. The bread and butter of sports is money, which is the CCL, but that's not really the point)


    All competition is important. Period.

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    All I know about the Montreal supporters is that we have had REAL supporters that have been doing this a heckuvalot longer than those punks from Chateau-de-blablabla and we've never had any problems with DC, Chicago or New England. Columbus maybe a little but I don't believe they wrecked our stadium (although some douchebags on our side did do that to theirs). The point is Montreal have shown to be the biggest douchebag fans in all of North American sports. Everywhere they go they cause trouble. Shoot...their dumbass students can't accept a tuition hike that would STILL leave them with the loweset tuition rates in Canada and they go out and destroy their own city. Stupid animals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T-boy View Post
    I definitely don't understand some people's preference to the cup games. The TFC season is 95% league games and 5% cup games - wouldn't you prefer to see your team do well in the majority of games, not the minority? I personally don't care about the cup games - I think they are a sideshow to the main entertainment during a season. I'd MUCH prefer TFC to win the league rather than the CCL. I'd equally much prefer to see TFC win most league games. A cup run is fun, but its not the bread and butter of the season.
    Yeah, I have to say I kind of line up with this view. In theory CCL should be a great competition, in practice I don't see much appeal. Lots of bush league teams from small countries, questionable level of commitment from Mexican teams, and a really drawn-out format that doesn't sustain much momentum. Grand prize is being curb stomped by some of the biggest clubs in the world, who will probably put all the effort and focus into the game that you would expect out of a mid-summer friendly.

    At this point, I'll take that playoff birth we've long been waiting for over anything related to CCL.

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    Brad and Tboy I understand where you're coming from. The league is what draws people outside the sport to the sport. The only thing that draws more is friendlies outside the league but that to me is cherry picking at the cost of genuine competition but I digress.



    I'll say that putting all eggs into the Vcup basket is much like leapfrogging the importance of the league but our competition allows us to do so so I will.



    What I don't understand is the fan that would prefer to see a Colmbus Crew game over a Santos Laguna etc. Regardless if you chalk it up to seeing new teams never before faced and exclude the skill level of the side (A Real Estelli instead of a Cruz Azul etc) I'd always prefer and look more forward to CCL.
    FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Why does one league HAVE to supercede the other?

    Why does one have to be the "bread and butter"? (P.S. The bread and butter of sports is money, which is the CCL, but that's not really the point)


    All competition is important. Period.
    Personally I don't care if you consider one competition more important than the other, what is fundamentally true however is that the amount of data collected by league games far outnumbers the data accumulated in the ACC/CCL. The league is by far a better gauge of the team's progress and capabilities than a much shorter competition.

    The fact remains that if you want to CONSISTENTLY do well in the ACC/CCL you have to build a team that is competent in both competitions. We may have squeaked by in the regional tournament before but if this team continues to suck like it has, the chances of getting back to the group or knock-out stages diminishes substantially. And isn't the point to get BACK to the Champions League, not to justappear once, make a run and then fail to reappear?

    If people around here REALLY want to enjoy CCL, I assume they'd like to do so more than once. In order to do so, you have to have a quality team that has their shit together. That is not this club. Instead of looking to the past, I would assume it is more productive to look to the future and try to get there again. In order to do so, you have to make the right moves. Those right moves will benefit not just the CCL chances, but the league performance. If you're not performing in the league, you are basically counting on luck to get you far in the CCL like it did for TFC last year. That is a boneheaded way of building a club.

    Anyone who dismisses the league because they value the CCL more is a fool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post

    Anyone who dismisses the league because they value the CCL more is a fool.
    No need for name calling. It's sufficient to call an opinion foolish.
    FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER

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    TFC's inability to get results in the league and abiltity to get them in CCL (where almost every game is important) to me is really an issue of motivation and man management. Winter has to figure out how to get the same intensity level out of the guys in MLS games where not everything is on the line, or that small thread he's hanging by with be cut really soon. The team has shown it's good enough to get the results when it sets its mind to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    All I know about the Montreal supporters is that we have had REAL supporters that have been doing this a heckuvalot longer than those punks from Chateau-de-blablabla and we've never had any problems with DC, Chicago or New England. Columbus maybe a little but I don't believe they wrecked our stadium (although some douchebags on our side did do that to theirs). The point is Montreal have shown to be the biggest douchebag fans in all of North American sports. Everywhere they go they cause trouble. Shoot...their dumbass students can't accept a tuition hike that would STILL leave them with the loweset tuition rates in Canada and they go out and destroy their own city. Stupid animals.
    They really do seem to take their bullshit to a whole new level every time they travel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryan View Post
    Why does one league HAVE to supercede the other?

    Why does one have to be the "bread and butter"? (P.S. The bread and butter of sports is money, which is the CCL, but that's not really the point)


    All competition is important. Period.
    The league is the bread and butter as its the MAJORITY of the season. We have 38 league games to play through the season (and then up to 6 more if we get to the play offs), and a maximum of maybe 12 cup games if we do well in the Canadian Champs and then the CCL. The league is where TFC is primarily judged, I would say.

    It's the same in any league in the world - the league is the major part of the season, and the cup is just a side part of it all. It's nice to have a good cup run, but in the end of the season, your season is judged on where you end up in the league table. Just ask Man United this season - they beat Man City in the FA Cup - but I would bet that nearly all Man U supporters would pick a league success over that cup game any day! Also look at Chelsea - I would also bet that tha majority of Chelsea fans would take a Premiership title over that FA Cup win.

    You also have to look at where our season tickets are going - we all have tickets to all the league games, but have to buy most of the cup game tickets. It would suck if most of the games we have pre-paid for the season tickets suck, and yet the games where we have to fork out our extra cash, TFC play well. Why would anybody have a season ticket, in that case? I might as well give up my season ticket and JUST get the cup game tickets, which are easy to buy.

    I would take the majority of the season over the minority ANY day. I would take 8 league wins and be out of the CCL already any day, also.

    I havee to say that its hard to judge the MLS from a TFC perspective. TFC have NEVER had a good run in the league and have NEVER be in the play offs - so you don't know how it feels to win a league title.

    For me, winning the 2nd Division title with Oxford United was my best feeling EVER. Beating Galaxy in the CCL pales in comparison to a league title. A cup win is a nice little "high" - but a league win is f-ing orgasmic!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    TFC's inability to get results in the league and abiltity to get them in CCL (where almost every game is important) to me is really an issue of motivation and man management. Winter has to figure out how to get the same intensity level out of the guys in MLS games where not everything is on the line, or that small thread he's hanging by with be cut really soon. The team has shown it's good enough to get the results when it sets its mind to it.
    Agreed. In the end of the day Aron Winter is going to be judged on where his team ends up in the league, NOT what he can get out of the team in a cup run.

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    ^ I would say though that Chelsea fans would take a Champions League win over the EPL league championship. But that's a different kettle of fish to our CCL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ag futbol View Post
    Although our real problem is clearly all the Canadians on the roster /sarcasm
    Just noticed the jab. ag, you are an excellent communicator when it comes to tactics.

    IMO, success on the pitch has to do with tactics, skill and execution of both. While we can discuss the merits of one system vs another the skill and ability to execute are equally important.

    Let me ask you this. On paper, does TFC have the 3rd strongest roster in the league? Ie. Are they Cup favourites or at least serious Top 3 Cup contenders?

    They should be since they outspend about 16 other clubs by more than double the resources they put into player salaries.

    If we are not Top 3 on paper, what's wrong with asking where our investment is going? Because while we may not have a Top 3 roster on paper, we sure as hell have Top 3 ticket pricing. It's our money they are spending and if it isn't on the best available skilled players, we should explore that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brooker View Post
    They really do seem to take their bullshit to a whole new level every time they travel.
    This is all we need to show them. Remember this? EPIC FAIL!

    Follow me...... https://twitter.com/#!/aGeRoO76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    ^ I would say though that Chelsea fans would take a Champions League win over the EPL league championship. But that's a different kettle of fish to our CCL.
    Chelsea have to win the champions league to salvage their poor (by their standards) season. If Chelsea had won the premiership this season already, then the champions league would be less important in the larger picture.

    I think the difference being that the monetary gain of playing in the champions league for any European club is MASSIVE! Playing in the champions league means millions in revenue, and then the potential of buying better and more expensive players.

    The CCL in north america doesn't equate to the same thing unfortunately - it probably costs more for TFC to get further in the competition than any income form it (flying off the Mexico every other week is damn expensive alone!). And the esteem to the CCL doesn't equte to the European version either.

    Also, the final "goal" of the club world cup also doesn't hold much esteem either. I would say the "premium" cup competition in the world is the European Champions League - and if Chelsea go on to win that, the Club World Cup is a bit of fun for the club after that. So, to win the CCL is fun, but winning the MLS would probably get TFC more esteem, in the end of the day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    All I know about the Montreal supporters is that we have had REAL supporters that have been doing this a heckuvalot longer than those punks from Chateau-de-blablabla and we've never had any problems with DC, Chicago or New England. Columbus maybe a little but I don't believe they wrecked our stadium (although some douchebags on our side did do that to theirs). The point is Montreal have shown to be the biggest douchebag fans in all of North American sports. Everywhere they go they cause trouble. Shoot...their dumbass students can't accept a tuition hike that would STILL leave them with the loweset tuition rates in Canada and they go out and destroy their own city. Stupid animals.
    in my opinion Toronto's police, security and club has failed to manage entire event. I have no idea why game vs DC was a high security and club send email about increased number of police etc... but game vs Montreal was not.

    here is a short list of things that club could have done to save some headaches
    -- Putting some security under 104 to direct tfc fan around the area
    -- Making arrangements to move Montreal supporters to the front of 104
    -- Making this a dry game, to decrease the number of drunken idiots from both sides

    Unfortunately management of tfc has no idea what they are doing.

    Toronto’s supporters were painted as hooligans by media after incidents in Columbus, I don’t think it is fair todo the same to Montreal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavydMT View Post
    in my opinion Toronto's police, security and club has failed to manage entire event. I have no idea why game vs DC was a high security and club send email about increased number of police etc... but game vs Montreal was not.

    here is a short list of things that club could have done to save some headaches
    -- Putting some security under 104 to direct tfc fan around the area
    -- Making arrangements to move Montreal supporters to the front of 104
    -- Making this a dry game, to decrease the number of drunken idiots from both sides

    Unfortunately management of tfc has no idea what they are doing.

    Toronto’s supporters were painted as hooligans by media after incidents in Columbus, I don’t think it is fair todo the same to Montreal.
    I disagree with a couple points there

    Directing TFC fans under 104- perfect
    Montreal in front- No way do I want them access to the field, closer to our players in the corners. Leave them up there. Security has a duty to keep people below safe if that entails them boxing 4 sides in.
    Dry game- No need to punish us as well. I personally don't imbibe at most games anymore but I think that takes onus of Security. I think they can or should handle this.
    FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER

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    Quote Originally Posted by T-boy View Post
    The league is the bread and butter as its the MAJORITY of the season. We have 38 league games to play through the season (and then up to 6 more if we get to the play offs), and a maximum of maybe 12 cup games if we do well in the Canadian Champs and then the CCL. The league is where TFC is primarily judged, I would say.

    It's the same in any league in the world - the league is the major part of the season, and the cup is just a side part of it all. It's nice to have a good cup run, but in the end of the season, your season is judged on where you end up in the league table. Just ask Man United this season - they beat Man City in the FA Cup - but I would bet that nearly all Man U supporters would pick a league success over that cup game any day! Also look at Chelsea - I would also bet that tha majority of Chelsea fans would take a Premiership title over that FA Cup win.

    You also have to look at where our season tickets are going - we all have tickets to all the league games, but have to buy most of the cup game tickets. It would suck if most of the games we have pre-paid for the season tickets suck, and yet the games where we have to fork out our extra cash, TFC play well. Why would anybody have a season ticket, in that case? I might as well give up my season ticket and JUST get the cup game tickets, which are easy to buy.

    I would take the majority of the season over the minority ANY day. I would take 8 league wins and be out of the CCL already any day, also.

    I havee to say that its hard to judge the MLS from a TFC perspective. TFC have NEVER had a good run in the league and have NEVER be in the play offs - so you don't know how it feels to win a league title.

    For me, winning the 2nd Division title with Oxford United was my best feeling EVER. Beating Galaxy in the CCL pales in comparison to a league title. A cup win is a nice little "high" - but a league win is f-ing orgasmic!
    Interesting. I know you're not alone in league over international competition but I'd be interested to know how you rate Supporters Shield and MLS Cup. I only ask because of the Oxford reference. Did they win the league or get promoted through playoffs?
    FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canary10 View Post
    ^ I would say though that Chelsea fans would take a Champions League win over the EPL league championship. But that's a different kettle of fish to our CCL.
    I would take a Champions Leauge win over winning the MLS Cup or Supporters shield for TFC as well to be honest - but only if we were damn good on the league as well. I'd be damn happy with a fourth place finish and the CL trophy.

    But that is also a lot different than a cup run, dead last and a new record for futility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    Interesting. I know you're not alone in league over international competition but I'd be interested to know how you rate Supporters Shield and MLS Cup. I only ask because of the Oxford reference. Did they win the league or get promoted through playoffs?
    Oxford got second in league two - they didn't win actually. But second spot got them automatic promotion. Oxford won the play offs from the conference two years ago, but I wasn't there (couldn't get back due to work in Canada ).

    I think there's different levels of excitement either winning the league OR winning the play offs, for sure. I personally think the gratification of winning the actual league is the best. Knowing your team has been consistently the BEST in the league through the season as a whole is pretty amazing.

    Don't get me wrong - I LOVE a good cup run. I've seen my orignal team (and always my "number one passion team") Oxford beat a premiership team in a cup game, and its a great feeling. But its a SHORT TERM good feeling. I love that high during that one night of beating that team, but its like picking up a woman for a one night stand. It's great for that night, but it has no long term feeling involved. So, I love a league win/success the most - its a series of little high's through the season building to that league win in the end - it has the most esteem to it, and the feeling that YOUR team is the BEST in the whole league, is a fantastic feeling.

    The day that TFC win the league si the time everybody will understand what I'm talking about. You can't really describe to somebody who has never won the league what that feeling is like. I get that some people are excited about a cup run, but the league is that overall feeling, not just a short term high.

    When Oxford got automatic promotion that one season, and got win after win in the league, home and away, it was a great feeling that lasted months, not just one night. That's not just a one night stand, that's a whole season's worth of 9 months of orgasm with the woman you love, haha!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    What I don't understand is the fan that would prefer to see a Colmbus Crew game over a Santos Laguna etc. Regardless if you chalk it up to seeing new teams never before faced and exclude the skill level of the side (A Real Estelli instead of a Cruz Azul etc) I'd always prefer and look more forward to CCL.

    I see a few reasons why they'd want to see the Crew over a team like Santos

    -familiarity. They follow the league, they know the Crew, maybe they buy into the fake rivalry, ect.
    -The league is what matters in North American sports. We don't have cups that matter. You win in the league enough to at least squeak into the playoffs - then you hopefully make a run.
    -it's a road to the playoffs. North Americans love their playoffs. Getting into the playoffs consistently and having a good run is what TFC need to take things to the next level IMHO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by narduch View Post
    LOL. The guy has resorted to shilling tickets on twitter.
    He didn't even notice until the work order and receipts for replacing 3 seats crossed his desk. Then it became an issue. "Hey, this cuts our bottom line"

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    Quote Originally Posted by T-boy View Post

    The day that TFC win the league si the time everybody will understand what I'm talking about. You can't really describe to somebody who has never won the league what that feeling is like. I get that some people are excited about a cup run, but the league is that overall feeling, not just a short term high.
    Thanks for that. Well not so much the orgasm part but it raises the issue of how this sport in NA divides opinion. There's enough of it to go around for everyone to enjoy, though. Interesting perspective from your standpoint especially in that your team got the dream in promotion but didn't win the league. It mirrors the NA perspective of celebrating the playoff cup while the Supporters Shield is a far second in most people's eye even though it's harder fought for.
    FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER

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    Quote Originally Posted by brad View Post
    I see a few reasons why they'd want to see the Crew over a team like Santos

    -familiarity. They follow the league, they know the Crew, maybe they buy into the fake rivalry, ect.
    -The league is what matters in North American sports. We don't have cups that matter. You win in the league enough to at least squeak into the playoffs - then you hopefully make a run.
    -it's a road to the playoffs. North Americans love their playoffs. Getting into the playoffs consistently and having a good run is what TFC need to take things to the next level IMHO.
    I think it's the last point that interests me the most. The "next level" that you speak of is better quality on the pitch which no one would disagree with but too often what gets thrown in with it is "the next level" being popular with casual fans or general public. I have a problem with realigning my priorities just to look more commercially viable when I feel it leads to insular thought. (See: World Series, Superbowl.)
    FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER

 

 

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