Instead of who we should get rid of, who should we keep.

[Canary10]

We need a bit of size and speed in the DM spot. Watching JDG get thrown all over the pitch is painful. Tchani has the right stuff if his knee is better.

We NEVER win second balls. That's part of our problem. We need a ball winner there who can hold his own. Dunfield's too slow for it now. (Funny that he was pegged as an ACM by City way back when....).

[Detroit_TFC]

Player manager has crossed my mind. I'm not sure that Frings would do it. He has already made arrangement to join Werder Bremen's staff after his stint at TFC. If he can't get fit, that may be soon. Much more likely that a famous former player on TFC's current coaching staff would be an alternative. You know who I speak of.

[T-boy]

Agreed with Roogsy on this one completely.

As far as I can see, we have a good squad of players. There aren't many/any players (including Harden and Dunfield!) who I dislike. None of the players need to go. I'd love to see a new coach come in and instill some confidence into this set of players, and see what hey can do.

I have almost 100% confidence in this current set of players. I just have zero confidence in the ability of the coach to get results.

[Canary10]

I think we're mostly fairly good, but the holes we all knew are still there. Still no CB. Still no back up to Koevermans (we look like a shell of a team without Koevermans and Johnson playing that target role). I think we're the smallest team in the league and that shows in how we get outmuscled.

[T-boy]

I think we're mostly fairly good, but the holes we all knew are still there. Still no CB. Still no back up to Koevermans (we look like a shell of a team without Koevermans and Johnson playing that target role). I think we're the smallest team in the league and that shows in how we get outmuscled.

I don't completely agree. I think Johnson CAN be a good striker - BUT he's playing a very isolated roll on his own right now. Winter (or the next coach) needs to realise that we need to play to players strengths, and not play to highlight their weaknesses.

For example - we all know Johnson can score goals, but he's hopeless at holding up the ball and bringing others into the game. So, when we are forced to play Johnson up front, we need to play somebody by the side of him to play the ball off to him, rather than relying on him holding the ball.

Unless Winter starts playing to the strengths that we DO have, we aren't ever going to improve (or...win a game?!).

[Canary10]

^ Yeah, my point was that he's not a good target man. I agree with what you're saying. He's good on the wing, or even coming from a deeper lying position.

[Yohan]

I don't completely agree. I think Johnson CAN be a good striker - BUT he's playing a very isolated roll on his own right now. Winter (or the next coach) needs to realise that we need to play to players strengths, and not play to highlight their weaknesses.

For example - we all know Johnson can score goals, but he's hopeless at holding up the ball and bringing others into the game. So, when we are forced to play Johnson up front, we need to play somebody by the side of him to play the ball off to him, rather than relying on him holding the ball.

Unless Winter starts playing to the strengths that we DO have, we aren't ever going to improve (or...win a game?!).

RJ is the same mold of striker as Chad Barrett, with slightly better finishing and wing play. Same kind of slasher kind of striker.

[TFC_905]

I think the majority of the players on the team are good enough, but perhaps we're just too young of a team. If you look at our back line in the last game we had a 21, 19, 29 and a 23 year old... Our starting three up front was a 21, 27 and a 24 year old... now add plata into the mix, move avila (24) into the mid and you have a 20 year old up front.... Thats pretty young I'd say. As much as I like Ashtone Morgan, I have a serious problem making a 21 year old the undisputed starting left back. This team needs to mature.. I feel like a lot of the time its a case of boys vs men out there, and for the most part we've been in majority of the games... As an AC Milan fan, I've seen week in and week out for the past 10 or so years what veterans can offer to a squad. When we field such a young squad, we're prone to run into errors.

Maybe our expectations were too high at the beginning of the season, but we also have to remember that kovermans and frings have barely played together in 2012. They're suppose to be our top two guys, that would hurt any team.

[Canary10]

One of Rollins better articles:

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/co...n-for-the-ages

We're amongst the youngest teams in the league. We're built for the future, not now. We need a little infusion of experience to really be competitive right now.

[Carts]

I think the majority of the players on the team are good enough, but perhaps we're just too young of a team. If you look at our back line in the last game we had a 21, 19, 29 and a 23 year old... Our starting three up front was a 21, 27 and a 24 year old... now add plata into the mix, move avila (24) into the mid and you have a 20 year old up front.... Thats pretty young I'd say. As much as I like Ashtone Morgan, I have a serious problem making a 21 year old the undisputed starting left back. This team needs to mature.. I feel like a lot of the time its a case of boys vs men out there, and for the most part we've been in majority of the games... As an AC Milan fan, I've seen week in and week out for the past 10 or so years what veterans can offer to a squad. When we field such a young squad, we're prone to run into errors.

Maybe our expectations were too high at the beginning of the season, but we also have to remember that kovermans and frings have barely played together in 2012. They're suppose to be our top two guys, that would hurt any team.

This is the first post in a long time that has made me feel somewhat 'better' about the current situation...

[Roogsy]

Age can be a factor...if you let it. DC is barely 0.3 years older than our club and is 2nd in the East. KC is 0.8 years older and they're tearing up the whole league.

I am not dismissing age as irrelevant, but it's a very minor factor in an 0-8 start that's for sure. Dwelling on that is to miss the important factors that truly make a difference.

[Beach_Red]

One of Rollins better articles:

http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/co...n-for-the-ages

We're amongst the youngest teams in the league. We're built for the future, not now. We need a little infusion of experience to really be competitive right now.

It might also be interesting to look at length of their contracts to see how many of these young players TFC will be able to hold onto in the future. I guess a lot of cap space will open up when the DPs are no longer here, so maybe that's part of the plan.

[Canary10]

^ I think if he went with the median age it would be even lower.

Again Roogsy, I'm not disagreeing, but stepping back a bit. Whoever comes in will have to fix things beyond just managing the current players better. We rely only on a new coach to turn it around. Need to fill some holes too.

[T-boy]

^ I think if he went with the median age it would be even lower.

Again Roogsy, I'm not disagreeing, but stepping back a bit. Whoever comes in will have to fix things beyond just managing the current players better. We rely only on a new coach to turn it around. Need to fill some holes too.

I'm going to hazard a guess that bringing in a new coach would be ALL that TFC needs right now.

By the looks of the players, and how low their confidence is right now, a new coach will release the players from their shackles almost immediately. I couldn't believe how bad Eckersley looked on Saturday - and I truly bevieve that he's an excellent footballer. You could see that he's just frustrated and that his confidence is SO low. A change in manager is often all some players need to bring back their confidence.

[Torontotonto]

So...who would you like to see brought in?

There's lots of noise about Steve Nicol, but with many of the Euro leagues ending their seasons, who is likely to lose their job that you'd like to see?

Or is there some dark horse candidate you'd prefer, like Rafa Carbajal (currently with Oakville Soccer Club)?

Or should we try a Player-Manager and promote Torsten Frings? Hmmm...could this be a way to get a fourth DP?

I say Danny Dichio

[Canary10]

I'm going to hazard a guess that bringing in a new coach would be ALL that TFC needs right now.

By the looks of the players, and how low their confidence is right now, a new coach will release the players from their shackles almost immediately. I couldn't believe how bad Eckersley looked on Saturday - and I truly bevieve that he's an excellent footballer. You could see that he's just frustrated and that his confidence is SO low. A change in manager is often all some players need to bring back their confidence.

Two of the likely three teams to be relegated in the EPL brought new managers in midway through. I think it's a mistake to look at a new manager as the silver bullet. Unfair to that person too frankly, whoever they are. Although it cannot be worse.

[Yohan]

Two of the likely three teams to be relegated in the EPL brought new managers in midway through. I think it's a mistake to look at a new manager as the silver bullet. Unfair to that person too frankly, whoever they are. Although it cannot be worse.

Wigan could have easily sacked Martinez mid season, but kept faith with him and now they are safe. Remains to be seen whether Bolton will be able to do the same with Coyle

[Canary10]

Wigan could have easily sacked Martinez mid season, but kept faith with him and now they are safe. Remains to be seen whether Bolton will be able to do the same with Coyle

Wigan playing the same kind of game as us too. With QPR away to City and Bolton away to Stoke, who have nothing to play for and have looked it for the past three weeks or so, I'd put my money on Bolton.

[T-boy]

I think there is something a lot of TFC fans are forgetting right now: MLS is a PARITY league - all teams have the same budget due to the salary cap. So, really, no team should EVER be 7 points behind, and statistically out of the play offs, within one month of the start of the season.

The only teams that should be different are the teams that can afford 2 or more DP's, in which case those teams should be much BETTER than most teams. TFC is actually one of those teams that has THREE DP's, in in theory TFC should be doing better than the average MLS team right now.

So, TFC is spending more money than the average MLS club right now, and are still lagging WAY behind the rest of the teams.

You can't compare Winter with a manager like Martinez because Martinez has one of the smallest budgets in the EPL. Martinez is creating miracles with the squad he has, with little budget, and with no money to buy new players. That is why Martinez hasn't been sacked!

Conversely Winter has one of the biggest budgets in the MLS, in a league that has parity. TFC should be ahead of most teams, and yet are far behind.

For this reason alone, I think its justifiable that Winter should be fired. In a league where parity is created and managed, TFC shouldn't be this far behind EVER. There really isn't an excuse for it.

[Canary10]

My point isn't to say that if TFC stuck with Winter as Wigan has Martinez we'd turn it around as Martinez has. My point is that 2 of the likely to be relegated teams (QPR and Wolves) made managerial changes thinking that was the thing that would turn it around. I'm just cautioning that a change in manager shouldn't be viewed as silver bullet.

[T-boy]

My point isn't to say that if TFC stuck with Winter as Wigan has Martinez we'd turn it around as Martinez has. My point is that 2 of the likely to be relegated teams (QPR and Wolves) made managerial changes thinking that was the thing that would turn it around. I'm just cautioning that a change in manager shouldn't be viewed as silver bullet.

My point was that Martinez has done wonders with Wigan, and just surviving in the premier league for so long is a miracle. Nobody currently expect Wigan to get anywhere higher in the league, and most expect them to be relegated season after season, as they have severe constraints on their budget. So, for that reason, you can't really argue that "keeping Martinez" proves anything. Martinez is making Wigan play MUCH higher than they should be and everybody recognises that.

Mark Hughes HAS actually turned QPR this season. But, it just took him a couple of months to do it. They have had much better results over the last month. Hughes managed to turn the club around in LESS than half a season. Aron Winter has had well over a while season. So, there again, you can't really argue that QPR changing managers has done them worse. Hughes has definitely improved the team since taking over, and their results prove that.

And as far as Wolves - they replaced their manager with a guy who has never managed a team before - he's only ever been a first team squad coach/assistant. If Wolves had gone out and actually found another manager, then they might have changd their season around. So, again, Wolves firing their manager and replacing him with a first team trainer, doesn't really prove anything.

I see your point and your argument, but Wolves, Wigan and QPR aren't the best examples of a failed managerial replacement.

[Canary10]

Wigan wasn't parto of the argument. In fact, they stuck to their manager playing a similar game to TFC and it paid off. If anything, they're an argument to keep Winter.

QPR were on 17 points from 20 games when Warnock was fired, and are now on 37 from 37 and almost certain to lose their last game which would leave 37 from 38. An improvement under Hughes, but a pretty marginal one. If they get relegated, no one will be saying but he got 3 more points from 2 less games. It'll be a failure.

Wolves dumped McCarthy without having a plan. They assumed they would get a higher tier manager. Instead they had to hire the assistant. A lesson in doing things without having a proper plan in place.

Either way, neither Wolves nor QPR are an example of a managerial change leading to the promised land.

[T-boy]

Wigan wasn't parto of the argument. In fact, they stuck to their manager playing a similar game to TFC and it paid off. If anything, they're an argument to keep Winter.

QPR were on 17 points from 20 games when Warnock was fired, and are now on 37 from 37 and almost certain to lose their last game which would leave 37 from 38. An improvement under Hughes, but a pretty marginal one. If they get relegated, no one will be saying but he got 3 more points from 2 less games. It'll be a failure.

Wolves dumped McCarthy without having a plan. They assumed they would get a higher tier manager. Instead they had to hire the assistant. A lesson in doing things without having a proper plan in place.

Either way, neither Wolves nor QPR are an example of a managerial change leading to the promised land.

I still can't see any similarity between Martinez and Winter? Martinez manages the club with the smallest budget in their league. Winter managers the team with the third largest budget in its league. Martinez is performing miracles to even keep Wigan in the league. Winter should clearly be doing better than dead last and no chance of the play-offs. Unless you are suggesting that Winter should be merely keeping TFC off the bottom place in the league, and that's all you are satisfied with?

Everybody recognises that QPR have been playing better since Hughes took over, and he's brought them out of the relegation zone over the last few weeks. And you never know, its even possible now that they could get something from the Man city game!

And I'm not suggesting TFC fire their manager and "not have a plan", like Wolves. Wolves haven't even replaced their manager with a proper replacement, they replaced him with a first team trainer! I'm not suggesting TFC, or any club, including Wolves, should do that.

[T-boy]

Anyways, I think the point of my original post has been missed.

We can't compare ourselves with ANY other club in other leagues, including premiership, as the MLS is a parity league. TFC should NOT be so far behind right now, and should not be already out of the playoffs this season. The salary cap promotes parity, and in any case, TFC should be ahead of most teams as we have 3 DP's.

There should never be an excuse for being so far behind the other teams when you have monetary equality enforced by the structure of the league.

[Roogsy]

Wigan has turned it around?

They've been bottom-feeders for several seasons now. Their particular claim to fame is a weird ability to setup shop in the relegation zone all year long and in the last few games pull themselves out just enough to avoid the drop!

That's turning it around? We're not aiming high enough folks if that is the kind of "success" we are hoping to have.

[Canary10]

I still can't see any similarity between Martinez and Winter? Martinez manages the club with the smallest budget in their league. Winter managers the team with the third largest budget in its league. Martinez is performing miracles to even keep Wigan in the league. Winter should clearly be doing better than dead last and no chance of the play-offs. Unless you are suggesting that Winter should be merely keeping TFC off the bottom place in the league, and that's all you are satisfied with?

Everybody recognises that QPR have been playing better since Hughes took over, and he's brought them out of the relegation zone over the last few weeks. And you never know, its even possible now that they could get something from the Man city game!

And I'm not suggesting TFC fire their manager and "not have a plan", like Wolves. Wolves haven't even replaced their manager with a proper replacement, they replaced him with a first team trainer! I'm not suggesting TFC, or any club, including Wolves, should do that.

It seems like we're debating across each other a bit here!

I wasn't saying anything about Martinez at all. Someone else brought him into the conversation. All I said is that Wigan has a similar attacking style to TFC. They were playing terribly in the first half of the seaon (really up to April when they had probably the hardest schedule in the EPL and won some huge games). They could have thrown in the towel early and said "to hell with this, we're in the EPL, why are we playing such an open game? Let's shore up the defence and just try to get results." They perservered with their attacking style and went and beat Newcastle, Arsenal, Man United, Liverpool. Now they're safe. The only lesson, if there is one, is that they stuck with their attacking game instead of changing it up which there was a lot of pressure to do.

QPR: they were one point above the drop zone when Warnock was fired, now they're 2 and in danger - they need Bolton to screw up for them to not down. Not really success. Of course I don't like Mark Hughes for hanging Fulham out to dry thinking he was going to get a top club to manage. Also like the fact that unlike my team (Norwich obviously), and Swansea, QPR spent a shit load of money (in addition to the coaching change) and it has failed miserably. So I'm not predisposed to liking them, and will continue to use them as an example of all that is wrong!!

[trane]

Wigan has turned it around?

They've been bottom-feeders for several seasons now. Their particular claim to fame is a weird ability to setup shop in the relegation zone all year long and in the last few games pull themselves out just enough to avoid the drop!

That's turning it around? We're not aiming high enough folks if that is the kind of "success" we are hoping to have.

I am not sure that what me and you think of "success" is what many around here think as "success". I am not sure what they think success is, not getting relegated in a league with no relegation?

[T-boy]

It seems like we're debating across each other a bit here!

I wasn't saying anything about Martinez at all. Someone else brought him into the conversation. All I said is that Wigan has a similar attacking style to TFC. They were playing terribly in the first half of the seaon (really up to April when they had probably the hardest schedule in the EPL and won some huge games). They could have thrown in the towel early and said "to hell with this, we're in the EPL, why are we playing such an open game? Let's shore up the defence and just try to get results." They perservered with their attacking style and went and beat Newcastle, Arsenal, Man United, Liverpool. Now they're safe. The only lesson, if there is one, is that they stuck with their attacking game instead of changing it up which there was a lot of pressure to do.

QPR: they were one point above the drop zone when Warnock was fired, now they're 2 and in danger - they need Bolton to screw up for them to not down. Not really success. Of course I don't like Mark Hughes for hanging Fulham out to dry thinking he was going to get a top club to manage. Also like the fact that unlike my team (Norwich obviously), and Swansea, QPR spent a shit load of money (in addition to the coaching change) and it has failed miserably. So I'm not predisposed to liking them, and will continue to use them as an example of all that is wrong!!

I'm enjoying the debate, and its better than thinking about work anyways!

[T-boy]

I am not sure that what me and you think of "success" is what many around here think as "success". I am not sure what they think success is, not getting relegated in a league with no relegation?

I think some fans need to look at the promise that Aron Winter made himself that we would be completely competative and vying for the play offs positions this season. He promised it himself, and he isn't delivering at all.

Now, if Aron Winter had promised "not to be the worst team in the league by the end of season two", then he might be on target of that by the end of this season. But he promised, and TFC's aim, was to be in amongst the play offs teams this season.

Also, Montreal and Vancouver are embarrassing us right now. They are currently both on course to be vying for those play off positions. TFC are a veteran club in the MLS compared to both, so really we need to be at least on par with both teams, if not ahead.

so, with that in mind, I find is strange that Winter hasn't actually quit! If I were him, and I wasn't delivering on my own promises, I would cut my losses already and save my face! He seems to be a very stubborn man, though!

[Canary10]

I'm enjoying the debate, and its better than thinking about work anyways!

For sure!