Hyndman still had 30 years.... 30 years of HEAD coaching experience! And had success at that level.
Smith wasn't hired by Colorado to be a coach. He was an academy guy. He was hired to run Arsenal's academy. He only took over Colorado when Clavijo resigned. Then he has hired. 2009 was his first full year coaching, 2010 made the playoffs.
Winter was an ASSISTANT who kept getting downgraded.
So point being... most coaches after TWO years made the playoffs.
And odds are most of those guys if they stayed 2-3 years before making the playoffs, they showed improvement, not regression.
And weren't 0-8 at any point.
Discussions become unproductive when instead of accepting prudent management practices you're forced to explain why the exception, not the rule, is no way to manage a club, when you would think it is obvious enough. Unfortunately Priz that is your favourite style of argument and it is logically lacking. You can find examples for any situation where unconventional or off-beat decisions work out but when you fail to compare against, account or quantify instances where they dont it is selective evidence and it is a logical fallacy. It's called "cherry picking" or "confirmation bias " where you provide only the data that supports your position.
Unless you can prove that the practice succeeds more than it fails, its evidentiary value is worthless.
I think most people would agree that experience is critical for a coaching position. And if you are going to take a risk on an unproven, inexperienced manager, they would have a lot less room for error than a proven one. That is just common sense. And if that manager struggles, you pull the parachute a helluvalot faster than you would with an experienced professional. There is a lot at stake here. Failure to apply proper risk management measures is the very definition of poor management practice and is extremely foolish. People lose jobs for that kind of mismanagement. At least, they do in better run companies than MLSE.
Last edited by Roogsy; 05-09-2012 at 01:00 AM.
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FUCKING THIS.Originally Posted by Whoop
Seriously, I feel like putting my head through a wall trying to explain this to people.
Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.
Important point here. We didn't hire the toast of the Ajax academy.
Do you have any idea how incredibly competitive the coaching situation is at Ajax? Being a second tier coach at Ajax would be a compliment for most coaches.
What if TFC hadn't won a single game under Winter so far? Should we still give him 3 years based on the off-chance he MIGHT get it right in year 3? I seriously just do not understand this argument. We have regressed under Winter. There is no reason, based on the performance so far, to think that things will just somehow fall into place going forward. He's had plenty of resources to work with, arguably more so than any of his predecessors, and still can't get it right. If his first 60 games haven't told you he probably isn't the right person for the job, I don't know what will.
hey, I hear Dero is coming back to coach!
^ That's the real issue. Critcizing him for not being amongst the premium coaches at Ajax is not a good argument. No top coach in Europe will come to MLS in the first instance. One thing about Winter everyone has generally agreed on is that he's professionalized the whole operation based on how they do things over there.
if he's doing a good job he stays. a new prez will keep a winning coach.
Sure, him and a seventeen million dollar investment that none of the previous managers had. And maybe Winter is the best possible coach for this situation, but I still think they needed to hire someone with more business experience - and more experience dealing with the kind of bureaucrocy that exists at MLSE. It's one thing to work in an an already existing system, it's another thing entirely to build one.
Maybe what we have this year is one step back in order to take two steps forward. I want to be optimistic.
Realistically Ansemli is going to be there at least until the sale is completed. I don't think we can even contemplate him at the moment. The lower hanging fruit is to break up this division of responsbility between Winter and Mariner that doesn't allow for accountability (or responsibility) from either. Let the on field coach have final say over player acquisition as well.
$17 million is a capital investment. Has nothing to do with how he organizes the team's day.
That is what Roogsy said. I read it on some thread.
^ Saw it on twitter too.
I'm trying to let him off the hook for organizing the 0-8 team's day.
The thing is, every manager this team has had did what he was hired to do about as well as could be expected with the resources he was given. The problem we have now is that when Winter was hired there was all this talk of 'changing the culture' and vision and 'beautiful football,' and big, lofty ideals - but almost never mentioned was winning some games. So, you could say Winter has fulfilled his mandate very well.
^ I was reading the infamous "notebook" last night and winning was a core value. He just hasn't done it.
Then it most be true. De Ro is coming back to take over as manager of TFC.
To be honest, I haven't seen the infamous notebook, that kind of stuff drives me crazy. Is winning the #1 priority? Or just one of the core values? I know people make fun of Al Davis and, "Just win, baby," and Vince Lombardi and, "Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing," but I do like it when it's in the top five things we're trying to do...
It's definitley the priority, along with attacking possession football, forcing the play on the opponent, developing technically sound players to play that way through the academy.
I agree with the need for a change now, but if it means throwing all the above out to start over I think it's a big mistake. We need someone to implement our team philosopy, not someone to start over from scratch. We need to bring in someone with North American experience implementing attacking football, not just bring in the only former MLS coach who doesn't have a job at the moment.
Yeah, those that don't succeed don't move up.
Either they move up or they're moved out.
I think pretty much everyone agrees with this. It's unusual for a team with a losing record to decide it's going to turn things around by forcing the play on opponents who are likely better, but hey, go big or go home, right?
It's probably a good idea to stay the course on the plan (which frankly, sounds like the same plan every other team has, so maybe I'm just annoyed because I feel like they're trying to sell me something straightforward as something special.
^ It's not really the same plan everywhere. Columbus, for example, says it will be the hardest working team in MLS. They say nothing about skill. Which makes sense, since they have none. They ARE all hard work.
Yeah, and there are probably a couple of other teams who decided that the kind of scouting and development required to be successful with a more skill game was too expensive. So, probably TFC with a lot of ticket sales and big money company behind it made the right choice. Along with a lot of other teams.
But there was a time when Toronto's sports "culture" was about hard-working, non-flashy teams. (I'm working on not being sarcastic here and saying that Klinsmann probably knows a lot more about Toronto's culture than I do
^ It is easier to win in Football with a hard-working, non-flashy team, IF YOU HAVE THE RIGHT SYSTEM AND MANAGER.
Hmm, that's probably true. Explains why a guy like Eckersley is a fan favourite.
I think our plan is forward looking though. I look at what the US men's teams are putting in place and I think skilled teams will be more the norm in MLS and teams like Columbus will struggle. They are already starting to. Fast physical players will take a back seat to skilled players who can move the ball.
Well I think ultimately that's the question right now. Are we going to throw out this philosophy (which means going back to square 1 with our personnel), or are we sticking with it and finding a manager that can better implement it?
But like trane says, you need someone to make that transition.
It appears that Winter isn't that person.
I don't think you have to completely throw out the philosophy, but you have to be able to modify it to face MLS reality. KC plays a 4-3-3 but it is less tiki taka and much more physical.
The biggest problem with Winter is his inflexibility.
10 years from now when our academy is churning out quality players who are technically gifted, we can play like Barcelona.
Last edited by Oldtimer; 05-09-2012 at 10:06 AM.
exactly Vic. what's the worst thing that'll happen, we'll lose more games! that's impossible!
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