View Poll Results: Whack coaches + Players or 3 wise men???

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  • continue to whack coaches, players, etc...

    7 6.36%
  • Whack Paul Bierne, Tommy (the fuck) Anselmi, and Earl Cochrane (no pun required)

    103 93.64%
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  1. #61
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    If Mariner and Cochrane aren't part of the purge that is coming, I'll be about done with this team. Changing upper management will have to come later, as someone in the short terms has to decide to pull the trigger and who is coming in to fix it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    The most intelligent thing I heard yesterday was a friend who said:

    "Culture? You want to bring culture to this club with a system? What about a culture of winning? Is that not important? Will kids want to grow up and play soccer for this club when this is what they see? You have to wonder about the damage to the game this club is doing by being so incompetent. "

    Can't say I disagree with him.
    He voice my feelings exactly, and this is why I am so mad at those voicing blind loyalty to this piece of shit organizations, because that is what it is a peace of fucking shit. It makes money, but it has not fucking clue about winning in any sport, much less football. So every fucking year that it carries our cities footy flag, and every fucking year that it keeps on losing it dose not help football it hurts it. People are starting to joke about TFC. People are starting to talk about the curse of Toronto franchises. Bullshit, there is not curse there is a lack of winning culture among management, AND AMONG SUPPORTERS, AND YOU SEE IT EVERY FUCKING TIME YOU GET ON THE BOARD. YOU SAID IT BEFORE THIS I SUPPORT YOU EVEN IF YOU FEED ME SHIT ENABLES A CULTURE OF LOSING. I will not be part of that crap.


    For fuck-sakes, we now hold the record for worse start for the season, and YET there is still not universal call for firing everyone. For me that is incredible. UN-FUCKING-believable.
    Last edited by trane; 05-07-2012 at 11:08 AM.

  3. #63
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    Something is very wrong at TFC right now. I don't think anyone a year ago envisioned a team being 0-8, with no signs the team is improving, and starting to actually play like they don't care anymore. IMO the team is actually getting worse as weeks go by. I don't think even the early detractors of Winter imagined it would be this bad. They were not convinced it was a good choice for TFC; but this bad??

    Issues have to lay at the feet of the people in management who made the decisions on who to hire and how the structure of that team management has been set up. It's clearly not working. They need to change how that group is structured and change the personnel.

    I pass by the MLSE box on my way out from my seats and often see Anselmi, Beirne, and others. Usually a quick nod, hello, or chat as I pass by. On my way out this past Saturday I looked over to Anselmi. The only way I can describe the look on his face was tired - or like his pet just died. You can see the strain on their faces. This is the worse case scenario and I think they are at a total loss as to what has transpired. It can't be fun in the TFC offices these days. I'm sure there are a few people looking over their shoulder.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    The most intelligent thing I heard yesterday was a friend who said:

    "Culture? You want to bring culture to this club with a system? What about a culture of winning? Is that not important? Will kids want to grow up and play soccer for this club when this is what they see? You have to wonder about the damage to the game this club is doing by being so incompetent. "

    Can't say I disagree with him.
    The damage done is incredible.

    I honestly truly hoped that they had gotten it right with Winter. I knew that the club could not afford to get it wrong this time, so I had hoped that Klinsmann's group could help clueless Tom Anselmi out.

    I was willing to give Aron a year from his rebuild to get it right (I gave him to the rebuild time because he was brought in so late). I'm a patient guy. I have no regrets about not jumping to conclusions after 1/2 a season.

    However, the clear signs of a locker-room meltdown shows me that they got it wrong with Winter, and this means that we have seen the end of decent attendance for years to come. Think Toronto Rock, only worse.

    That also means that those of us who sided against DeRo, like myself, during the blowup with the club were also wrong, and I freely admit this, Roogsy. Trading TFC's best player away, who wanted to finish his career in his home town, and who still has a love for Toronto and wants our club not to be the laughing stock of MLS will always be a stain on Tom Anselmi's career.

    Instead of trying to wow us with "Total Football," having a more pragmatic approach and building around DeRo would have been a more sensible approach. DC is now taking that step.

    Anselmi & Paul B. are responsible for burying what could have been Toronto's hotest sporting franchise for generations to come. I include Paul B. in this for his raising of season ticket prices to unsustainable levels, and ignoring the fans when they told him he had screwed up. How's that waiting list, Paul?
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 05-07-2012 at 09:58 AM.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Anselmi & Paul B. are responsible for burying what could have been Toronto's hotest sporting franchise for generations to come.
    So true. But maybe not for a whole generation. People showed there was huge interest here for soccer - all we asked was that the team be professional and professionally-run. Didn't seem too much to ask and Bell/Rogers may finally bring that to the team. If they do, they will be able to undo the damage quickly, I think because this city is still starved for sports.

    I was also hopeful when MLSE seemed to finally give up on trying to run it themselves (the sports 'learning experience' for the execs, now that they'd had to hand the Raptors and Leafs over to other people) and brought in Klinsmann, but the reality is what they did was hire a company called Soccer Solutions that lists Klinsmann as one of its principals and which calls itself on its website: "a sports marketing and business development company that is committed to helping its clients be successful through soccer related activities."

    http://www.soccersolutions.com/

    Who knows, maybe they're a terrific company but it doesn't sound like what was needed for TFC.

  6. #66
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    Is it time the fans (and hopefully the supporters) take the initiative and take our concerns directly to the new owners???

    I think it's time we bypass TFC management and executive and head straight for MLSE's new owners.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    Is it time the fans (and hopefully the supporters) take the initiative and take our concerns directly to the new owners???

    I think it's time we bypass TFC management and executive and head straight for MLSE's new owners.
    This may be the logical next step.
    However, we'd have to see how involved this new management is with the team. Will they be willing to step in and do something or are the of the mind that the situation is being handled by the people currently managing the team. The latter suggests they only care about the revenues and since those are doing well, there is no need for them to step in.

    At the end of the day - Rogers and Bell are just as bad a MLSE in the make money first mentality.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    That also means that those of us who sided against DeRo, like myself, during the blowup with the club were also wrong, and I freely admit this, Roogsy. Trading TFC's best player away, who wanted to finish his career in his home town, and who still has a love for Toronto and wants our club not to be the laughing stock of MLS will always be a stain on Tom Anselmi's career.
    I appreciate these words and I take no joy in knowing that you too have been beaten down to this point.

    I think I will always be sore about "what could have been" in this city. Not just with this one particular player, but overall with this club. The potential was great. We had legendary stories waiting to be written. But the reality has become that of wasted potential, wasted greatness and overall frustration.

    Someone needs to answer for this and their usual practice of throwing out sacrifical lambs like Winter (who is not the fundamental problem with this club) will not fix it.

    If Rogers and Bell decide to keep Anselmi on to head up TFC, our suffering will continue for the foreseeable future and that is nauseating thought.
    Last edited by Roogsy; 05-07-2012 at 10:26 AM.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suds View Post
    Something is very wrong at TFC right now. I don't think anyone a year ago envisioned a team being 0-8, with no signs the team is improving, and starting to actually play like they don't care anymore. IMO the team is actually getting worse as weeks go by. I don't think even the early detractors of Winter imagined it would be this bad. They were not convinced it was a good choice for TFC; but this bad??

    Issues have to lay at the feet of the people in management who made the decisions on who to hire and how the structure of that team management has been set up. It's clearly not working. They need to change how that group is structured and change the personnel.

    I pass by the MLSE box on my way out from my seats and often see Anselmi, Beirne, and others. Usually a quick nod, hello, or chat as I pass by. On my way out this past Saturday I looked over to Anselmi. The only way I can describe the look on his face was tired - or like his pet just died. You can see the strain on their faces. This is the worse case scenario and I think they are at a total loss as to what has transpired. It can't be fun in the TFC offices these days. I'm sure there are a few people looking over their shoulder.
    at 0-5 you give the team the benefit of the doubt - multiple factors playing a big role in the teams falters.
    However at 0-8-1 something needs to give and I don't think it's the manager right now.

    Right now the upper management has failed for 5 years straight and have started on failing for a 6th straight year. This team is really the creation of MLSE and no other ownership group. We've changed managers over and over again, we've changed players over and over again. I think it's time to try something new.

    However I don't think we can do it on our own. If we are serious about taking this step then we would need to get Leaf and Raptor fans involved as well no? Is this not a bigger problem than just TFC?

  10. #70
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    If MLSE has the latitude to hire a permanent replacement for Winter prior to the transfer of ownership, I would like to see the following managerial structure in place moving forward:

    Steve Nicol - Manager/Head Coach

    Paul Mariner - Assistant Manager

    Thomas Rongen - Director Of Player Development

    I would maintain the existing coaching staff within all the ranks of the Academy, but otherwise, everyone else is expendable.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    I appreciate these words and I take no joy in knowing that you too have been beaten down to this point.
    It didn't look like DeRo was taking too much delight either in saying "I told you so." I'm sure he feels sick looking at this club, and that even overshadows the normal desire of an athlete to prove wrong the club that traded him away.

    It's sad when even the Impact feel sorry for us. Only the KKKrew's Bill Archer seem to be delighting in this disaster. Everyone else feels just pity.

    Winter's not responsible for taking what looked like a decent paying gig. I hold nothing against him at all.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    at 0-5 you give the team the benefit of the doubt - multiple factors playing a big role in the teams falters.
    Exactly, I'm not into blaming the coach for everything. Anyone who has coached themselves knows that the coach only influences things so far. However the locker-room issues convinces me, even more so than 0-8-1.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabbronies View Post
    However I don't think we can do it on our own. If we are serious about taking this step then we would need to get Leaf and Raptor fans involved as well no? Is this not a bigger problem than just TFC?
    You're right. That would be something. All toronto fans unite against the scourge known as MLSE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    It didn't look like DeRo was taking too much delight either in saying "I told you so." I'm sure he feels sick looking at this club, and that even overshadows the normal desire of an athlete to prove wrong the club that traded him away.

    It's sad when even the Impact feel sorry for us. Only the KKKrew's Bill Archer seem to be delighting in this disaster. Everyone else feels just pity.

    Winter's not responsible for taking what looked like a decent paying gig. I hold nothing against him at all.
    DeRo spent the following day after the game (his only rest day) with kids at his clinic. Not with family. Not with business interests. But working with local kids that want to play soccer, many of them underpriviledged that were invited free of cost to work out with him.

    If anyone thinks DeRo's ultimate desire isn't to elevate the sport in our city and our country, they're as ignorant as can be. He spent his entire time while playing for Toronto promoting the game for TFC and for the national team without earning a single dollar more. He doesn't even live here anymore and yet continues to do so, not earning a penny on any of the events he runs in this city I might add (in fact, quite the opposite, much of this coming out of his own pocket for those that begrudged him getting a raise).

    He knows that the difficulties of Toronto are undoing all the work that everyone involved in soccer in Canada is trying to do and it really bothers him. Aside from personal success with whatever team he plays with...he is a Toronto-boy at heart and so wants TFC to do better. In a way, he is something of a TFC fan, as unbelievable as that sounds. Which is why I identify with him and defend him so fanatically.

    I think he would have loved to score on Saturday not to bury us deeper but to point to TFC management the mistake they made. But putting that aside, to this day I have never heard him utter a single bad word about the Toronto fans and in fact I often hear praise and sympathy like we saw in the interview. He still asks me about us and how we are holding up in the face of this torture. And I try to hide my anger at how he still appreciates us and we fail to do the same for him.
    Last edited by Roogsy; 05-07-2012 at 10:58 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Exactly, I'm not into blaming the coach for everything. Anyone who has coached themselves knows that the coach only influences things so far. However the locker-room issues convinces me, even more so than 0-8-1.
    Yes. Holding onto that locker room under these circumstances was probably impossible. Certainly impossible for a rookie coach in this league.

    And that's another thing that Anselmi should have known, that after the revolving door of coaches the team has been through they really needed someone with more experience - a steady hand, so to speak. It just seems like a very poor management decision to dump Winter into the middle of this mess.

    Like I said before, I'm sure they required the manager of the Real Sports bar they opened to have more experience than they required of their head coach. We don't expect the execs at MLSE to know anything about the game of soccer, but we expect them to know management and from the very beginning with this team they haven't.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManUtd4ever View Post
    If MLSE has the latitude to hire a permanent replacement for Winter prior to the transfer of ownership, I would like to see the following managerial structure in place moving forward:

    Steve Nicol - Manager/Head Coach

    Paul Mariner - Assistant Manager

    Thomas Rongen - Director Of Player Development

    I would maintain the existing coaching staff within all the ranks of the Academy, but otherwise, everyone else is expendable.
    I like the look of this.

    Rongen seems to have a passion for developing youth. Without he pressure of immediate results, he may do a good job. And working with Nicol and Mariner, I don't think TFC will need to depart from the offensive, possession team philosophy we'd all like to see.

    Can I put this on my Christmas wishlist? I promise I will be good...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    Yes. Holding onto that locker room under these circumstances was probably impossible. Certainly impossible for a rookie coach in this league.

    And that's another thing that Anselmi should have known, that after the revolving door of coaches the team has been through they really needed someone with more experience - a steady hand, so to speak. It just seems like a very poor management decision to dump Winter into the middle of this mess.

    Like I said before, I'm sure they required the manager of the Real Sports bar they opened to have more experience than they required of their head coach. We don't expect the execs at MLSE to know anything about the game of soccer, but we expect them to know management and from the very beginning with this team they haven't.


    Thank


    You.

    As someone who has been in management for years, it is truly mindblowing that basic Human Resource recruitement practices are applied for their Real Sports Bar property and yet those same practices were thrown out the window for a much larger line of of business! It is truly a mindfart!

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    I appreciate these words and I take no joy in knowing that you too have been beaten down to this point.I think I will always be sore about "what could have been" in this city. Not just with this one particular player, but overall with this club. The potential was great. We had legendary stories waiting to be written. But the reality has become that of wasted potential, wasted greatness and overall frustration.Someone needs to answer for this and their usual practice of throwing out sacrifical lambs like Winter (who is not the fundamental problem with this club) will not fix it.If Rogers and Bell decide to keep Anselmi on to head up TFC, our suffering will continue for the foreseeable future and that is nauseating thought.
    Someday, I really wish someone with a lot of inside info would write a book about the first 6 years of TFC history. A tell-all expose if you will. This club could be a Harvard Business School case study on exactly how NOT to do things. So much promise unfulfilled. So much initial fan enthusiasm gone down the crapper because of years of broken promises. This club could have redefined success in the Toronto sports market if it had been run properly since day 1 - instead, MLSE through it's ineptitude has served to take the pent up demand that existed for professional soccer in this city for so many years, and just milked it for all it's worth. I just think it's tragic what could have been had we had a different executive team here from the very outset.

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    If someone does not get fired this week, this organization is more fucked then I thought.

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    ^ It's really hard to believe no one has.

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    ^ I am almost speechless at this point, at the whole TFC experience.

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    If MLSE had any balls they'd have done it right after Saturday's game. The fact this is creeping along is yet more mismanagement from them. If Winter did indeed have 4 games to turn it around, we're now at one draw and two losses. What possibly can be the result in the last game that saves him? 10-0?

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    ^ There is not saving. This is a new low for this "club", at every level.


    And just to add salt to the wound, at those supporting MLSE/Winter, I am not sure if you all noticed by Montreal won over the weekend. 3 wins, one of them on the road, and they are working on a striker that may be a difference maker.

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    The article in Saturday's Star about Anselmi was very telling - it said he had the power to fire Winter - but needed approval from the board of directors. I wish they'd televise the meeting where he goes in and says he needs more money to hire yet another coach...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    The article in Saturday's Star about Anselmi was very telling - it said he had the power to fire Winter - but needed approval from the board of directors. I wish they'd televise the meeting where he goes in and says he needs more money to hire yet another coach...
    Perhaps Tom should relay to the Board Of Governors that the amount of money spent on Winter's buyout and subsequent replacement will pale in comparison to the amount of revenue this franchise will lose next season if it continues on it's current trajectory.

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    Have you read "How to strangle the goose that lay the golden egg" by Tom Anselmi.

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    All TFC really had to do was not be offensively terrible and MLSE would have basically been in possession of a winning "cash for life" lottery ticket.

    They couldn't even build a team that was just bad. They built the worst team ever in life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just One Man View Post
    All TFC really had to do was not be offensively terrible and MLSE would have basically been in possession of a winning "cash for life" lottery ticket.

    They couldn't even build a team that was just bad. They built the worst team ever in life.
    And this after implementing their plan to make things right. Hiring consultants, attempts to bring in "soccer people" with knowledge, to deliver a good product to fans after 5 years of hell. That whole process was all about turning TFC around and make it the model for the MLS. What's they've accomplished to date is to actually make things worse then they were. We are going in the opposite direction. (investment in the academy aside) The decision makers in the front office must be beside themselves right now.

    Oh to have been a fly on the wall during those meetings where the decisions were made to take us on this path. I would have loved to hear what each person's input was.
    Last edited by Suds; 05-07-2012 at 12:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    The article in Saturday's Star about Anselmi was very telling - it said he had the power to fire Winter - but needed approval from the board of directors. I wish they'd televise the meeting where he goes in and says he needs more money to hire yet another coach...
    I can just see how that plays out.

    Ansemli emails the board: "Urgent, we need a meeting. We have some important busines"

    Board emails back: "We have our next meeting scheduled in June. Raise it with us then."

    Anselmi: "It's kind of urgent. We're 0-8, the manager has to be fired."

    Board: "We have our regularly scheduled meeting in June, raise it then."

    Anselmi: "It's really, really urgent. We can't wait that long."

    Board: "Bring it to our next meeting in June."

    Ad nauseum.....(btw, a Globe article a few months ago said that the board had to be given presentations on and approve all Leafs trades on TRADE DEADLINE DAY!!).

  30. #90
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    So these people have been responsible for our teams... fans... not professionals.... just you know, regular old sports fans with business degrees.... http://www.mlse.com/inside_mlse/board_of_directors.aspx

    YIKES!

    Makes me think that Ton Anselmi would get better results for our team with approval from the smartest posters on our message board instead of that board of directors
    Last edited by Couchy81; 05-07-2012 at 12:37 PM.

 

 

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