Anselmi (3 wise men) or Winter - Who to get rid of???

[Roogsy]

Or a lack of communication. Although the set-up with this team seems ideal to create issues of leadership. It's very tough to take a guy who doesn't have a lot of experience and drop him in the middle of a place like TFC and then give him a mandate to change the whole organization and, by the way, also coach the team. It's not like taking over a big club with an infrastructure already in place and everyone knowing what their job is and being good at it. All this talk of the 'two camps' in TFC doesn't seem far fetched. And when there is a divided office like that, and some people will benefit if others fail... well, it's a tough place for an inexperienced guy, it's almost designed to fail.

I think Anselmi's saying, "They have to work it out," was a clear message that he wasn't going to make any changes during the season (probably doesn't have the budget for it), so now we have to hope that these guys are professionals.

I fully agree with this post. I want Winter gone because he is the wrong guy for the job. But the BLAME for hiring Winter falls directly on senior management of MLSE, Uncle Tom in particular. That guy shouldn't be in charge of a lemonade stand.

TFC needed a strong, experienced leader to come in and show them how to put together a competent club. Instead they STILL don't have anyone in TFC management that have ever actully built an entire successful organization. It's just a bunch of guys that did similar jobs elsewhere but with nowhere near the same seniority or authority and were basically thrown together because Anselmi felt like building the management of a club like video gamers build team rosters on FIFA. (That ones for you Jimmy Bald X!)

[trane]

I fully believe so.

This was in essence, to stave off a full outright mutiny. That is never a good sign. To be honest, it really looks like they've taken some authority away from their own manager...which if I remember correctly was one of the many rumours about a "previous" player and a MAJOR reason some around here were glad to see him go. But here it is a good thing? Haha...I don't think so.

When players determine strategy, you've reached the point of no return and you have to wonder what the point of keeping the manager is. I'd love to see one of ER's famous Winter GIFs where he is standing in front of tsunami or a nuclear explosion, completely unaware of the impending disaster.

Agreed. A football team should not be a democracy, the manager needs to be the dictator, maybe a benevolent dictator, but a dictator.

[trane]

I fully agree with this post. I want Winter gone because he is the wrong guy for the job. But the BLAME for hiring Winter falls directly on senior management of MLSE, Uncle Tom in particular. That guy shouldn't be in charge of a lemonade stand.

TFC needed a strong, experienced leader to come in and show them how to put together a competent club. Instead they STILL don't have anyone in TFC management that have ever actully built an entire successful organization. It's just a bunch of guys that did similar jobs elsewhere but with nowhere near the same seniority or authority and were basically thrown together because Anselmi felt like building the management of a club like video gamers build team rosters on FIFA. (That ones for you Jimmy Bald X!)

Agreed. Again.

[Oldtimer]

There is a certain amount of speculation as to what is really going on behind the scenes. I agree that it's not a good thing when you have to call a "clear the air" meeting. However, while it seems that the players had influence on playing style and formations the last game, it's unclear what that means. It could be either (1) There was a threatened player revolt and Winter handed over the keys to prevent open revolt or (2) a very green and inexperienced manager is starting to listen and not just boss his players (in which case it sucks that we have such an inexperienced coach, which relates to the need to fire the 3 wise men).

Knowing something of Dutch culture (some of my children have experienced Dutch background school teachers), I've noticed that the culture tends to be very authoritarian ("you do it with out question because I say so."). This would fly for someone like Frings, Koevs, or Soolsma, but would cause young North American players to get their backs up. That could explain any divide in the dressing room.

[Canary10]

Whatever happened in that meeting, I do find it interesting that they were back to Winter's preferred system and 4-3-3 formation (Trane, that distinction is for you) on Wednesday night. That tells me there is at least buy-in to what Winter is trying to do, despite whatever else may be going on. Winter went off-script the two prior games, and it clearly didn't sit well with the players.

[Beach_Red]

There is a certain amount of speculation as to what is really going on behind the scenes. I agree that it's not a good thing when you have to call a "clear the air" meeting. However, while it seems that the players had influence on playing style and formations the last game, it's unclear what that means. It could be either (1) There was a threatened player revolt and Winter handed over the keys to prevent open revolt or (2) a very green and inexperienced manager is starting to listen and not just boss his players (in which case it sucks that we have such an inexperienced coach, which relates to the need to fire the 3 wise men).

Knowing something of Dutch culture (some of my children have experienced Dutch background school teachers), I've noticed that the culture tends to be very authoritarian ("you do it with out question because I say so."). This would fly for someone like Frings, Koevs, or Soolsma, but would cause young North American players to get their backs up. That could explain any divide in the dressing room.

It would fly a lot better on a team that wasn't 0-8, even for those guys. Most athletes in every sport are used to doing what the coach says, even in North America . But no one likes to lose every game and desperate times call for desperate measures.

I'm really hoping that this has been a turning point for TFC and Winter.

[v00d00daddy]

I think we might be entering the realm of speculation beginning to be treated like fact.

People hearing Winter from the bench. People reading body language and analysing words from interviews.

Where exactly is the proof that the players dictated or had influence on the style of play against Montreal?

Do we really think that the players coached themselves to that win?

I don't. KD mentioned that Winter can't speak english. So who was it on the field that coached that team to a win?

Frings? He's the only guy on the team that has the experience and likely the technical acumen to know where everyone should be on the pitch and how they should play while there. But he doesn't speak english too well either.

I think we're grasping at straws here.

Nobody knows why they looked good against Montreal. The only thing left to do is wait and see if they revert back to shitting the bed and adding to the 0-8 league start, or is this the coin that's been flipped?

Who knows?

I just think it's bordering on absurd to suggest that this team is coaching itself. Maybe it's BDK...maybe they're listening to Winter. Maybe their has been some compromise between the coaching staff and the players.

But the mere fact that the team that was on the field on Wednesday is made up of very young players or journeymen (apart from Frings and maybe JDG) leads me to believe that, not only did they not coach themselves to victory, they're incapable of doing so.

Ryan Johnson was critical of previous game tactics...and he's well within his right to be so....but it's a HUGE stretch to suggest that he would know how to fix it and what it takes to turn this team around. I love his passion and all but he can barely play a throughball to a teammate....it's not likley that he's some tactical genius LOL

[v00d00daddy]

It would fly a lot better on a team that wasn't 0-8, even for those guys. Most athletes in every sport are used to doing what the coach says, even in North America . But no one likes to lose every game and desperate times call for desperate measures.

I'm really hoping that this has been a turning point for TFC and Winter.

This may be why I'm still supportive of Winter. It's because I was one of those players that believed that you do what your coach tells you to do. You shut up and play.

I know you say desperate times call for desperate measures...but as inexperienced as Winter is a coach...he still knows more about the game than every single player on that team (short of Frings who has come out and supported Winter).

So what's more desperate? Listening to the current coach...or listening to players that flat out don't know the game a fraction as much as the coach?

[Oldtimer]

It would fly a lot better on a team that wasn't 0-8, even for those guys. Most athletes in every sport are used to doing what the coach says, even in North America . But no one likes to lose every game and desperate times call for desperate measures.

I'm really hoping that this has been a turning point for TFC and Winter.

The difference is that coaches today have to earn it. In the old days you listened just because he had the whistle. Now it's different. Winter gets instant cred for his playing history, but he has to have some give and take with the players, hear them out, to get their respect.

0-8 is a symptom, not the cause of our problems.


Given that things aren't going to change anytime soon, like you I hope Winter can learn how to coach on the job.

[spark]

This may be why I'm still supportive of Winter. It's because I was one of those players that believed that you do what your coach tells you to do. You shut up and play.

I know you say desperate times call for desperate measures...but as inexperienced as Winter is a coach...he still knows more about the game than every single player on that team (short of Frings who has come out and supported Winter).

So what's more desperate? Listening to the current coach...or listening to players that flat out don't know the game a fraction as much as the coach?

I don't want to take this sideways but you made an interesting point that might be worth touching on - they might not be listening to the coach but the player on the field who, like you said, arguably has as much experience as he does. I don't think the language/communication is an issue (I'm referring to Frings btw) as I've heard players say his English is perfect he just doesn't feel comfortable using it w media. We saw in the Chicago game he didn't wait for Winter to change things up and unilaterally moved himself into midfield/forward positions. It's just my opinion but considering he's in the trenches with them, I'd think if Torsten says we need to attack but Winter wants to put 5 men back, the players will follow their captain.

[v00d00daddy]

The difference is that coaches today have to earn it. In the old days you listened just because he had the whistle. Now it's different. Winter gets instant cred for his playing history, but he has to have some give and take with the players, hear them out, to get their respect.

0-8 is a symptom, not the cause of our problems.


Given that things aren't going to change anytime soon, like you I hope Winter can learn how to coach on the job.

I hope they both learn.

I hope Winter learns how to take his players needs into consideration more

And

I hope the players (the young NA players for sure) learn that part of being a pro is executing what your coach demands of you.

[v00d00daddy]

I don't want to take this sideways but you made an interesting point that might be worth touching on - they might not be listening to the coach but the player on the field who, like you said, arguably has as much experience as he does. I don't think the language/communication is an issue (I'm referring to Frings btw) as I've heard players say his English is perfect he just doesn't feel comfortable using it w media. We saw in the Chicago game he didn't wait for Winter to change things up and unilaterally moved himself into midfield/forward positions. It's just my opinion but considering he's in the trenches with them, I'd think if Torsten says we need to attack but Winter wants to put 5 men back, the players will follow their captain.

Perhaps...but why then would frings be okay with lining up as a sweeper against the galaxy (where they got the needed results)?

I think Frings has too much experience to ignore the coach and do what he thinks is right and disrespect the coach.

If he did decide that Tfc needed to attack and that his teammates would follow their captain, why didn't it happen?

I think it's another stretch and leap.

[trane]

Whatever happened in that meeting, I do find it interesting that they were back to Winter's preferred system and 4-3-3 formation (Trane, that distinction is for you) on Wednesday night. That tells me there is at least buy-in to what Winter is trying to do, despite whatever else may be going on. Winter went off-script the two prior games, and it clearly didn't sit well with the players.

I do think that the dicussion seems to have been positive, and clearly they all seemed to be more on the same page against Montreal.

[trane]

Perhaps...but why then would frings be okay with lining up as a sweeper against the galaxy (where they got the needed results)?

I think Frings has too much experience to ignore the coach and do what he thinks is right and disrespect the coach.

If he did decide that Tfc needed to attack and that his teammates would follow their captain, why didn't it happen?

I think it's another stretch and leap.

Realy that is the only real difference between how we play a 4-1-2-2 wingers-1 CF, Frings pulled back to sweepers making us look like 5-2-2-1, or 3-4-2-1 in attack.

[FreekAce]

Knowing something of Dutch culture (some of my children have experienced Dutch background school teachers), I've noticed that the culture tends to be very authoritarian ("you do it with out question because I say so."). This would fly for someone like Frings, Koevs, or Soolsma, but would cause young North American players to get their backs up. That could explain any divide in the dressing room.[/QUOTE]

uh, yeah, those teachers most likely came here in the 50's and likely are good church going protestant folk. times were a bit different back then. modern dutch culture is pretty much the opposite of that. if anything north americans are way more concerned about keeping the peace and not making waves. the dutch are extremely forward and will generally always say whats on their mind. bdk is a good example of that. aron on the other hand is a bit more shy.

[Oldtimer]

uh, yeah, those teachers most likely came here in the 50's and likely are good church going protestant folk. times were a bit different back then. modern dutch culture is pretty much the opposite of that. if anything north americans are way more concerned about keeping the peace and not making waves. the dutch are extremely forward and will generally always say whats on their mind. bdk is a good example of that. aron on the other hand is a bit more shy.

It's probably mostly generational, then.

[FreekAce]

It's probably mostly generational, then.

had a couple of canadian buddies go over there and come back saying the women intimidated them

[Pookie]

uh, yeah, those teachers most likely came here in the 50's and likely are good church going protestant folk. times were a bit different back then. modern dutch culture is pretty much the opposite of that. if anything north americans are way more concerned about keeping the peace and not making waves. the dutch are extremely forward and will generally always say whats on their mind. bdk is a good example of that. aron on the other hand is a bit more shy.

As a generalization, Dutch are also very direct.

I used the example of a coach who advised his youth players to "take the ball go around the fat kid." He was right. The fat kid was slow and there was a lot of space there.

A North American might look at the same situation and say "use your speed down the right side, they appear to be a little weaker over there"

Same objective, going around the fat kid. Two different approaches.

[Pookie]

So, now that there has been an assistant coaching change with a rumored eye to the future, let me ask:

If firing Winter meant that Brennan takes over as Interim Head Coach (or possible Head Coach without the Interim label), still want him gone?

[joeyjones]

So, now that there has been an assistant coaching change with a rumored eye to the future, let me ask:

If firing Winter meant that Brennan takes over as Interim Head Coach (or possible Head Coach without the Interim label), still want him gone?

no, but i think it would be Mariner that would the HC spot...

[Wooster_TFC]

So, now that there has been an assistant coaching change with a rumored eye to the future, let me ask:

If firing Winter meant that Brennan takes over as Interim Head Coach (or possible Head Coach without the Interim label), still want him gone?

No way. I'd take Winter over that every day of the week, and a million times on Sunday.

[Oldtimer]

Given the latest shenanigans with Brennan being promoted, etc., who still thinks that just getting rid of Winter, and not the 3 wise men, will do anything to solve TFC's problems?

[Auzzy]

^ All I know for sure now is that I don't know anything.

[ryan]

^ All I know for sure now is that I don't know anything.

Which means, based on TFC, you're qualified to be the Assistant or Head Coach of the 1st team, Director of Team and Player Operations and Executive Vice President.

[Roogsy]

I was reading a business article the other day that was discussing "value" in running a business. It used a baseball analogy and then ran a comparison of the top spending teams in the American league vs the Tampa Bay Rays.



Despite that yawn­ing gap in pay­roll, in 2008 Tampa Bay won the Amer­i­can League East divi­sion title and has made the play­offs in each of the past two sea­sons, ahead of Boston. As for this year, last Fri­day in the five-team Amer­i­can League East, Tampa Bay was sec­ond behind the upstart Bal­ti­more Ori­oles, the Yan­kees fourth and the Red Sox in last place.

How to explain Tampa Bay’s suc­cess? In part it’s attrib­ut­able to its man­ager, Joe Mad­don, twice named Amer­i­can League Man­ager of the year – lead­er­ship truly does mat­ter, in sports as in busi­ness. But the other expla­na­tion is a strate­gic deci­sion by Tampa Bay’s own­er­ship and Gen­eral Man­ager Andrew Fried­man (named Sport­ing News 2008 Exec­u­tive of the year.) Instead of get­ting into pay­roll wars that they couldn’t win, their focus shifted to “doing more with less” by build­ing a pipeline of inex­pen­sive minor league tal­ent. This strat­egy has enabled Tampa Bay to com­pete with teams that out­spend them three and four to one.

I thought it was somewhat applicable here as TFC seem to have gone in the opposite direction of Tampa Bay. As in "less with more" rather than "more with less".

[Canary10]

I was reading a business article the other day that was discussing "value" in running a business. It used a baseball analogy and then ran a comparison of the top spending teams in the American league vs the Tampa Bay Rays.



Despite that yawn*ing gap in pay*roll, in 2008 Tampa Bay won the Amer*i*can League East divi*sion title and has made the play*offs in each of the past two sea*sons, ahead of Boston. As for this year, last Fri*day in the five-team Amer*i*can League East, Tampa Bay was sec*ond behind the upstart Bal*ti*more Ori*oles, the Yan*kees fourth and the Red Sox in last place.

How to explain Tampa Bay’s suc*cess? In part it’s attrib*ut*able to its man*ager, Joe Mad*don, twice named Amer*i*can League Man*ager of the year – lead*er*ship truly does mat*ter, in sports as in busi*ness. But the other expla*na*tion is a strate*gic deci*sion by Tampa Bay’s own*er*ship and Gen*eral Man*ager Andrew Fried*man (named Sport*ing News 2008 Exec*u*tive of the year.) Instead of get*ting into pay*roll wars that they couldn’t win, their focus shifted to “doing more with less” by build*ing a pipeline of inex*pen*sive minor league tal*ent. This strat*egy has enabled Tampa Bay to com*pete with teams that out*spend them three and four to one.

I thought it was somewhat applicable here as TFC seem to have gone in the opposite direction of Tampa Bay. As in "less with more" rather than "more with less".

In terms of results we have gotten so far, yeah. But I'm not sure that's really true. I was just listening to the Bob de Klerk interview with de Vos and Wileman, and his goals is to have 10-12 academy players in the first team in the next few years. Really I think the focus is actually the same as Tampa Bay's. They want a pipeline of GTA born players coming up through to the first team. I think the DPs are viewed as necessary short-term requirement to keep the team competitive (cough) until these players start to make an impact.

[ensco]

^This book lays out what you are talking about re the Rays
http://www.amazon.com/The-Extra-2-St.../dp/0345517652

The other point people make all the time about the Rays: players love playing there. Guys will run through walls for Joe Maddon.
http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/news/ar...s_mlb&c_id=mlb

Until TFC addresses its confrontational style/history with players, we are going nowhere.

[ryan]

Well 4 top 4 picks (2 1sts) is probably more of it than Maddon IMO, but he is a great manager for that team no doubt.

[Roogsy]

^This book lays out what you are talking about re the Rays
http://www.amazon.com/The-Extra-2-St.../dp/0345517652

The other point people make all the time about the Rays: players love playing there. Guys will run through walls for Joe Maddon.
http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/news/ar...s_mlb&c_id=mlb

Until TFC addresses its confrontational style/history with players, we are going nowhere.

This...

[Pookie]

I was reading a business article the other day that was discussing "value" in running a business. It used a baseball analogy and then ran a comparison of the top spending teams in the American league vs the Tampa Bay Rays.



Despite that yawn*ing gap in pay*roll, in 2008 Tampa Bay won the Amer*i*can League East divi*sion title and has made the play*offs in each of the past two sea*sons, ahead of Boston. As for this year, last Fri*day in the five-team Amer*i*can League East, Tampa Bay was sec*ond behind the upstart Bal*ti*more Ori*oles, the Yan*kees fourth and the Red Sox in last place.

How to explain Tampa Bay’s suc*cess? In part it’s attrib*ut*able to its man*ager, Joe Mad*don, twice named Amer*i*can League Man*ager of the year – lead*er*ship truly does mat*ter, in sports as in busi*ness. But the other expla*na*tion is a strate*gic deci*sion by Tampa Bay’s own*er*ship and Gen*eral Man*ager Andrew Fried*man (named Sport*ing News 2008 Exec*u*tive of the year.) Instead of get*ting into pay*roll wars that they couldn’t win, their focus shifted to “doing more with less” by build*ing a pipeline of inex*pen*sive minor league tal*ent. This strat*egy has enabled Tampa Bay to com*pete with teams that out*spend them three and four to one.

I thought it was somewhat applicable here as TFC seem to have gone in the opposite direction of Tampa Bay. As in "less with more" rather than "more with less".

Agreed. And Tampa invested in scouting and player development in order to ensure that their pipeline was full. Something we are relying almost exclusively on our Academy to produce.