Anselmi (3 wise men) or Winter - Who to get rid of???

[Beach_Red]

Counter quote with quote or better yet a link please.

There was this:

Interesting post-game interviews with the players, who said the meeting resulted in a tactical decision to press higher up the field from now on (which is how most of the league plays). Certainly showed tonight. Montreal wasn't used to having to move the ball around at that pace and ended out playing a lot of long, unpredictable shit out of the back.

Of course, I have no proof, but I'm convinced that four games ago when Winter had his meeting with Anselmi the decision was made to put the "plan" on hold and just win some games. This meeting of the players seems to have reinforced the idea.

Last night looked like a team trying to win a game, not an organization trying to make a point about the game should be played.

I think Winter's mandate has changed and now we'll see what he can do right now - not building an organization for the future.

Of course, this is all speculation...

[Canary10]

Last night looked like a "hard work" win, didn't it? Looked good to me .

They also played with a high press and were on the attack from the first whistle. They played more to the way the 4-3-3 is supposed to be played.

But your point is taken, they worked hard. You can never win being second to 50/50 balls no matter what system you play.

[Canary10]

There was this:



Of course, I have no proof, but I'm convinced that four games ago when Winter had his meeting with Anselmi the decision was made to put the "plan" on hold and just win some games. This meeting of the players seems to have reinforced the idea.

Last night looked like a team trying to win a game, not an organization trying to make a point about the game should be played.

I think Winter's mandate has changed and now we'll see what he can do right now - not building an organization for the future.

Of course, this is all speculation...

They actually played to the system last night. Part of our problem has been Winter playing too tactically defensively and not havng confidence in playing HIS system as it should be. The way people are describing the team meeting, it sounds like the players told him let's play the way we are built to, not to everyone's criticism of the defence. They did, and they looked better.

[brad]

Counter quote with quote or better yet a link please.

I don't have anything handy - but there were tweets floating around last night from someone behind the bench that said Frings kept coming over to the bench and telling Winter what to do. It's twitter, though, so take that for what it is worth.

I don't actually think it's a bad thing for an inexperienced manager to take in feedback from the players and adjust tactics accordingly (especially when you have experience like Frings on the pitch) - so long as that is not a case where the players are actually taking control.

[Beach_Red]

They actually played to the system last night. Part of our problem has been Winter playing too tactically defensively and not havng confidence in playing HIS system as it should be. The way people are describing the team meeting, it sounds like the players told him let's play the way we are built to, not to everyone's criticism of the defence. They did, and they looked better.

And they played ugly, and there's nothing wrong with that . The goals were the result of effort, not any kind of beautiful play, and that's just fine.

At the beginning of the season (or maybe it was even last season, it's all a blur) there was a rumour that Winter played Cann out of position to make some kind of point. I don't buy that, but certainly last season there was no sense of urgency around games and it seemed like there was a real danger of complacency setting in - too much focus on the big objective and not enough in the games at hand. There was lot of talk about progress and none about results - results seemed to be something that could be put off indefinitely. Last night looked like the way we expected this team to start the season. I think this is a turning point. Sure, most teams will be better than Montreal, but TFC is not going to lose 8 in a row again and will be a lot more competitive now.

[Pookie]

But the reports coming out of the team meeting make it seem like the players essentially told Winter how they want to play.

I think that ^ is a bit of a twisting of words. Some of the direct quotes coming from the room were:

Arash Madani ‏ @ArashMadani
Johnson said the team meeting "got a lot off our chests & the coaches got a lot off their chests." Said "open dialogue" helped a ton. #TFC


Frings: "Everyone needed to fight for everybody." ... And on Winter: "We have no problem with the coach." #TFC

Frings: "I told the guys before the game, 'we've spoken too much. We need to show it on the pitch today.'" #TFC



If I am reading between the lines, I'd say that Winter over the last few games was coaching to not lose. Perhaps as direct result from the meeting with Ansemli where he was reportedly given 4 games to turn it around. Ultimately, I think that the players/coaches meeting that happened after those "defensive efforts" was a bit of a gut check time for all involved.

The coach decided that if he is going to go out, he'll do it on his terms. The players decided that there really are no excuses. At some point they have to win their battles and decide to play for each other... and for their own development.

[Canary10]

There was some ugliness for sure, and a lot of hard work. But fundamentally they played the sytem - high press, attack first, tighter midfield. Winter's been pushed off his preferred gameplan by all the negatitivity surrounding the defence. The Ryan Johnson comments from the weekend, even the DeRo comments were all about that. Why is this attacking team playing 5 at the back? I think the team meeting was actually about sticking to the plan and convincing Winter to keep having faith in it.

[Canary10]

I think that ^ is a bit of a twisting of words. Some of the direct quotes coming from the room were:

Arash Madani ‏ @ArashMadani
Johnson said the team meeting "got a lot off our chests & the coaches got a lot off their chests." Said "open dialogue" helped a ton. #TFC


Frings: "Everyone needed to fight for everybody." ... And on Winter: "We have no problem with the coach." #TFC

Frings: "I told the guys before the game, 'we've spoken too much. We need to show it on the pitch today.'" #TFC



If I am reading between the lines, I'd say that Winter over the last few games was coaching to not lose. Perhaps as direct result from the meeting with Ansemli where he was reportedly given 4 games to turn it around. Ultimately, I think that the players/coaches meeting that happened after those "defensive efforts" was a bit of a gut check time for all involved.

The coach decided that if he is going to go out, he'll do it on his terms. The players decided that there really are no excuses. At some point they have to win their battles and decide to play for each other... and for their own development.

Yes, totally agree.

[Beach_Red]

It doesn't really matter, but I think Winter's meeting with Anselmi was significant. I think we're going to see more emphasis on immediate results and we're going to get results. With all that talk of "affecting the way the game is played in North America" put aside, I think TFC has a very good chance to eliminate Vancouver and advance.

[Canary10]

^ I'm clearly a formation geek. Should stop reading Zonal Marking as my first read in the morning....

[Roogsy]

We won last night.

Give them all fucking extensions.

[jabbronies]

They also played with a high press and were on the attack from the first whistle. They played more to the way the 4-3-3 is supposed to be played. But your point is taken, they worked hard. You can never win being second to 50/50 balls no matter what system you play.

4-3-2/ 4-2-3 was exectued perfectly. Wonder what the game would've been like if they played a 4-3-3



Glad we are back on course with this system. The last 2 games of "trying to adapt" just did not work at all.

[Canary10]

Kocic's quote:

“When everybody’s fighting the way they did tonight, it’s not hard to win,” goalkeeper Milos Kocic told reporters following the victory. “And when we don’t drop back and wait for something to happen. The way we played today is the way we were supposed to play the whole season.”

[Pookie]

We won last night.

<--delete-->

Fixed it for you.

[Canary10]

Seriously, would Frings consider coaching TFC? I mean, he likes the city. No one could do a better job of uniting all TFC fans together. And he knows his shit. I've never seen anyone on the field more aware of everything that is going on around him than him. He's checking like 5 times a second to see where people are at and what's going on.

[Roogsy]

Seriously, would Frings consider coaching TFC? I mean, he likes the city. No one could do a better job of uniting all TFC fans together. And he knows his shit. I've never seen anyone on the field more aware of everything that is going on around him than him. He's checking like 5 times a second to see where people are at and what's going on.

I don't know personally but the common belief on these boards is that when he retires, there's a coaching job waiting for him at Werder Bremen. Not sure why he'd pick TFC over that.

As for his capabilities, again, I don't think people realize the difference between having abilities yourself and being able to develop them in others. These are two distinct skill sets. Frings may have personal awareness, but can he teach others is the real question. And you can't deduce that from his own play.

Interesting enough, that is the same difference that I believes makes Winter, who was a fantastic player, such a poor coach.

Not every great players makes a great coach. Look at Gretzky. Probably the best hockey player ever due this awareness and intelligence and yet he was never able to translate that behind the bench.

[tfcleeds]

Agreed, it would be great to see Frings take on some kind of role with TFC when he retires, but doubt that will happen, when there are sure to be plenty of offers back in Deutschland.

[Canary10]

^ He seems willing to trade anonymity for being in Germany.

We just don't know on your other points. Wonder if the younger kids on the team have any thoughts?

[jabbronies]

Frings was offered a position - probably with youth squad - before he came to Toronto:
http://fourfourtwo.com/news/restofeu...7/default.aspx

A follow up article that has WB assuming he will be back to coach there:
http://www.tribalfootball.com/articl...-coach-2166381

Even with this, I don't think he should be manager at TFC.
If it comes time and we are looking for our next manager - be it this season or some other time down the road - should be of Sigi Schmidt/Steve Nicol/Bruce Arena Caliber.

[Suds]

I don't know personally but the common belief on these boards is that when he retires, there's a coaching job waiting for him at Werder Bremen. Not sure why he'd pick TFC over that.

As for his capabilities, again, I don't think people realize the difference between having abilities yourself and being able to develop them in others. These are two distinct skill sets. Frings may have personal awareness, but can he teach others is the real question. And you can't deduce that from his own play.

Interesting enough, that is the same difference that I believes makes Winter, who was a fantastic player, such a poor coach.

Not every great players makes a great coach. Look at Gretzky. Probably the best hockey player ever due this awareness and intelligence and yet he was never able to translate that behind the bench.

Some good points here. Being an excellent player means only one thing - they were an excellent player. Until they actually have some history as a coach it's unclear how good they will be. Add the fact that some coaches are much better working with younger developing players and some are better handling the pressure that comes with coaching a top pro team. Different scenarios and it will require different skills and attributes to succeed. To use the Gretzky analogy, maybe he would be a fantastic coach at the junior level??

[joeyjones]

last night proved what Winter cannot do, and hasn't done up to this point in his TFC career; get the boys to give the required effort every game. you can't tell me that we can play like we did against LA, Santos and now Montreal and play like shit in league games, and that is ok. it's down to the game day coach, getting his players up and ready for EVERY game..

[brad]

^^Maradona is the best example of good players not making a good coach IMHO. There are plenty more.

[Canary10]

last night proved what Winter cannot do, and hasn't done up to this point in his TFC career; get the boys to give the required effort every game. you can't tell me that we can play like we did against LA, Santos and now Montreal and play like shit in league games, and that is ok. it's down to the game day coach, getting his players up and ready for EVERY game..

I just posted the same in the after game thread. Yeah, motivation is his big problem.

[Canary10]

^^Maradona is the best example of good players not making a good coach IMHO. There are plenty more.

There is no hard or fast rule about whether good players can be good coaches. There are too many examples of both. All I know is that I've seen Frings doing the stuff of coaches out there. He takes guys aside and gives them direction. I'd love to hear from the younger kids how he is teaching.

[Beach_Red]

I just posted the same in the after game thread. Yeah, motivation is his big problem.

Maybe. But I think it's possible there has also been some adjustment from teacher to coach. Partly because Winter was coming from a youth system and partly because he was tasked with building an organization here (hey, you're a formation geek and I'm an office politics geek ).

So, maybe we'll see more consistent motivation from now on (I may be putting too much emphasis on Winter's meeting with Anselmi).

[Pookie]

Maybe. But I think it's possible there has also been some adjustment from teacher to coach. Partly because Winter was coming from a youth system and partly because he was tasked with building an organization here (hey, you're a formation geek and I'm an office politics geek ).

So, maybe we'll see more consistent motivation from now on (I may be putting too much emphasis on Winter's meeting with Anselmi).

I tend to theorize that there is a bit of a "circle the wagons" mentality going on... us vs them.

If the infighting and interference is there, players may be rallying around their coaching staff and each other. Ted Nolan, of NHL fame, was successful with the Sabres using this. It got him black-listed of course by putting players up against Management but it worked.

Not saying this is purposely being done but if there is a debate between MLS Pragmatists and Total Football Visionaries, it isn't that far of a stretch to say that folks might settle into one of two camps.

[brad]

There is no hard or fast rule about whether good players can be good coaches. There are too many examples of both. All I know is that I've seen Frings doing the stuff of coaches out there. He takes guys aside and gives them direction. I'd love to hear from the younger kids how he is teaching.

I agree completely. Whether a given coach is was a player or not should not even factor into the conversation, nor should how good or bad they were if they were a player.

[Roogsy]

I have been debating making this comment or not (lest the knives come out) and where to do it, either in the post-game thread or in here, but here goes. I figured in here would make less drama than in the post-game thread where people will just whinge about "raining on a parade".

What was the tactical difference between how the boys played last night and the way they have been playing in the previous 8 losses? Or at least the first 5 losses, since the last 2 or 3 have really been negative, defensive football we already know.

You see, I didn't see any tactical genius in last night. The difference to me was the effort. Getting to 50/50 balls first. Pressuring the Impact to make mistakes. Giving up the ball a lot less than they did. Those are not tactical improvements. Much of it was effort and passion. Which was probably a great result from the "airing" out in the meeting the day before.

But they're not going to have those "airing" outs every week are they? Or if they did, won't they lose their effectiveness?

Winter said this week that Johnson "was wrong" in his statement about playing defensively at home. And yet, this game we can all agree that it was the aggressiveness moving forward that led to the two goals. So was Johnson wrong? Why didn't Winter play that way against DC?

I said it before, I will say it again, last night was a good win, but it was like an old injured boxer that came out of his corner swinging and managed to land a few. Nice to see but does it point to something better? I didn't see anything last night that answered the fundamental issues with TFC. What I saw was that finally a team that looked beaten was showing some life. That's a good sign but more than one win is needed and it fails to answer the questions that had been already been raised. Can Winter coach this team to consistent success, not one win here, one win there? What of Winter's odd adjustments from time to time? What of his inflexibility? What of his failure to string two wins back-to-back together? Was this Winter's plan or was this the team imposing their preferred way of playing over Winters after the blow-up this week? These are only things that will be answered over time. If we win this one game but go on to continue to have a poor league record, what exactly does this win mean?

There are still lots of questions left and one game does not even come close to answering them. For some of us, yes we have made up our minds. It will take a sustained run of consistent performance to make us question our position. It's all about volume of evidence. There is just far more on one side than there is on the other. And honestly, to me it was somewhat bittersweet win last night. I think it saved Winter's job for a few more games and ultimately seals our season altogether. Instead of peeling the bandaid at once, we have decided to do it slowly.

[trane]

^ I already rained on the parade a bit in the other thread, but they ignored me.

[Canary10]

^ Exactly why I was talking about motivation. He doesn't seem to get players up for games unless there is already a reason for it (i.e. a semi-final game). He doesn't seem to be able to get players to play to that level of intensity game in and game out.

In terms of tactics, I agree there was not a lot different than the first 5 games or so, but I'd argue we should have picked up at least two wins in those games. It wasn't until we went totally negative that we didn't even look like we were in contention.