Anselmi (3 wise men) or Winter - Who to get rid of???
bottom line - if you have to choose: Winter, De Klerk and the players or Paul Bierne, Tommy Anselmi, and Earl Cochrane (no pun required). Make your stand - Who the hell do you get rid of? It seems simple to me, but of course there really are not any easy answers....
Last edited by tiberius; 05-06-2012 at 12:15 PM.
There should have been an all of the above option.
This!Originally Posted by narduch
All four ought to be fired, but this either/or between Winter and management is just more bullshit to try and let Winter off the hook.
The management sucks, but Winter is 0 and fucking 8.
Yeah, cause you know, not wanting to fire Winter right now means you think he has no responsibility.
^ Yes, that's it. Sure, big changes need to be made but that will have to wait until the sale is sorted out. On the menatime we're setting every futility eecord in the league.
It's time for this team to stop talking nonsense about, "affecting the way the game is played in North America," and just start playing the game.
It's time for an experienced guy to run the team, just to stop the bleeding. Pull someone out of retirement just to finish the season and try to make the team slightly less embarrassing.
It can't be all 4 at once though. That would mean that the Board made that decision and that would leave all 4 spots vacant at the same time. One has to come before the other.
So, you have to choose:
1. Let Anselmi fire Winter and bring in his replacement. The pro- there might be an improvement in results. The con- the new guy inherits the same mess as Winter had and the team is still fundamentally broke. We are trusting Anselmi to ensure that this the 5th pick.. no... 6th... no wait... 7th pick is the real winner
2. Remove Anselmi (et al) and defer the decision on Winter. The pro- the new leadership can select its course of action and bring in their managers to implement it. The con- there is going to be a period where Winter/Mariner have no real check and balance. Results will likely not improve over 2012 while the executive search continues.
It's a logical fallacy that these options in the poll are the only two choices.
Winter needs to go.
They need to clean house at TFC and get rid of Anselmi and Cochrane. I could care less if they get rid of Paul B, he has nothing to do with the product on the pitch BUT when they bring in a real team president that does not answer to Uncle Tom and only to the board, Paul needs to report to him not the board.
That's the best thing for this team.
So Winter goes first.
New coach comes in.
Then Anselmi and Cochrane go. New president comes in.
What happens to new coach?
Is a possible 8th coach (after Winter's replacement) really the best thing for this team?
How wouldn't it be? What on earth are you clinging to here?
This is the worst team to ever start an MLS season. EVER.
Doing whatever needs to be done to change that is the best thing for this team.
If there is a wholesale house cleaning of all management (which there fucking wont be, so you all ought to just drop this pipe dream), do you think the potential new coach is going to look at the organization and say "I don't know, your last management team wasn't very successful. Sorry, I wont take the job".
You get rid of management, then it is a clean slate. Expansion all over again.
Management isn't going anywhere though, so get fucking used to it and start calling for the head of the guy who has done a worse job than any one of his much maligned predecessors; hell, the guy who has done a worse job than anyone ever in this league.
This is not complicated!
Last edited by Just One Man; 05-06-2012 at 09:35 AM.
It's a chicken before the egg problem Pookie. It's not ideal but you also can't sit there and wait for the ideal circumstances to make moves. It may never come and then what?
I agree though I would add that in addition to the chicken and the egg, there is a coyote in this little hen house.
The chicken and egg is Winter or Anselmi, who goes first to improve performance?
The coyote is the problem that no one seems to be addressing and left unchecked, it will eat both the chicken and the egg.
Anselmi has price gouged his greedy fingers to a point where the franchise is threatened. To compensate for raising ticket prices, he gave us DPs. This year, 3/4 of our $8M payroll is tied up in 1 less than useful and 2 oft-injured contributors. This has resulted in a roster that is built around inexpensive youth with the idea that these DPs would fill the gap. The problem is that when they are hurt, we have inexpensive and inexperienced youth (Henry, Morgan, Silva, Lambe, Plata (sub) yesterday)... nearly 40% of the starting roster with less than a 1yr of MLS experience.
We have the most expensive tickets in the league. Attendance is no where near capacity and while they think winning cures all, individuals can't afford the corporate pricing structure they have created. But they need the price point in order to offset their quick-fix/band aid spends on DPs.
A fundamental change to the way the team is built is necessary in order to bring the team back to the fans in a way that is affordable and fair.
if he's doing a good job he stays. a new prez will keep a winning coach.
Moderator
Yeah, I don't get why people are getting up in arms over Paul B. The guy has zero input on how the team plays. I'm not even sure if getting rid of Cochrane would have a big impact either, but if you are going to replace Tom A the next guy that comes along will probably want to pick his own team director.
Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.
Again, Aron Winter was OK'd by Tom Anselmi AND Paul Beirne. There are very few major decisions that happen without Paul Beirne's final OK.
This includes the Liverpool friendly. Not sure there are many that think that's a good idea at this time.
But besides that, declining attendance, declining atmosphere, mismanaging supporters groups from day one, the man has been an abject failure. This club and its supporters flourished despite him.
Cochrane needs to go because he's part of a circus-like structure in our FO. He has done nothing to deserve a promotion to a position that is meaningless. What does he do exactly? He's part of the old regime, he's Anselmi's man amongst Mariner, Winter, and BDK.
Asked and answered.
This kind of interrnal politics isn't even that rare, it's just usually seen in government offices, places with no issues of profit or loss - which I guess fits MLSE. Could TFC have been managed any worse, and still it makes a profit.
Clean slate. Anselmi, Bierne, Cochrane, Winter & DeClerc all must be axed if we are truly going to see a future with this club. The players have no respect for the idiots running the team as it is quite obvious on and off the pitch.
After all the assholes are given their pink slips, I say let Frings be a player/manager.
Personally, I'm even thrilled that the question of whether Anselmi and Bernie should be sacked it being asked.
To which my resounding answer is YES!!!
The question is not even being asked in the press. MLSE's got their hand so far in the pot with the local soccer press, TV stations, broadcast rights.
Bring in people who have a football background, who love sport (not entertainment), and who's main goal is to win championships. (Not hopefully, maybe make playoffs)
The marketing, profits and shit will take care of itself.
that's pretty much it. Paul B has been behind some pretty boneheaded mistakes from this team (Real Madrid friendly.....) but he's not responsible for the product on the field. His job isn't to put a winner on the field, it's to make sure the lights are on and the game can go ahead. He's like the manager of a movie theater... don't blame him if the flick is terrible, but the seats are clean and the popcorn is fluffy.
Now for Tom Anselmi.... He should be on the hook for turning 3 of Toronto's teams into basement dwelling losers who are the butt of a national joke.
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For the nth time, the decision to hire Winter was made by Anselmi AND Beirne. I wish the town halls were recorded.
But even if you don't buy that, the drop in atmosphere is on Beirne. Most expensive tickets in the league is on Beirne. The disgusting way they're doing the Liverpool friendly this year, on Beirne.
We need a clean house. We've been a failure from day one, so IMO everyone senior involved from day one has to go.
Winter was brought in at the suggestion of Klinsman, and we didn't have any reason to question his advice. I bet Beirne was just happy Preki was gone and we didn't have a perma-interm coach under Nick Daso anymore.
and believe me, I'm not saying the boneheaded moves aren't there, I'm just saying that it's separate from the on field results. IF we were contenders, then the mistakes wouldn't matter so much, but because the team is habitually shit, every mistake is under the magnifying glass.
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Klinsmann gave them a list of managers and PB and TA picked one. If one was a cynic one would say that the marketing spin they could put behind the BS of an Ajax-style academy factored in, when the sole focus should have been on the pitch, but of course one would have to be really, really cynical. I'll just chalk it up to two guys who know nothing about the sport making a really bad decision.
While we're on the subject, getting advice from Klinsmann is in and of itself a really really bad decision. We needed staff that knew the USSF pyramid from top to bottom, not one that knew which neighborhood in Amsterdam has really good players to scout. The president of our club and the manager of our club need to know the MLS and the NCAA like the back of their hands. That's where you find success in the MLS, not chasing after Euro dreams a la the Gullit experiment.
And just as someone who really enjoys supporters culture, we need someone in the FO that understands the basics of support. We need someone that isn't arrogant with and dismissive of the SGs. I wish the FO viewed SGs as important partners and not just tools.
After 5 + years of this nonsense, everyone is complicit.
Get rid of everyone. Clean house.
Anselmi, Beirne, Winter, the whole lot.
Bingo. Scorch the earth.
I agree. Don't forget Cochrane though. His useless ass needs to go as much as anyone else.
Let Mariner coach the rest of the season and go from there.
So we run the club now?
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
I would buy shares! How could we possibly do worst than this! BTW the poll is more about the order of doing things, not an attempt to preserve Winter for the long term...
Yes I see that. And you don't need to lump the group into one opinion. Just like I wouldn't lump all Users into one opinion. People will differ on what road the team should take.
FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER
good point - I will get rid of the lumping together bit...
Last edited by tiberius; 05-06-2012 at 12:17 PM.
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