TFC's Problem - too much Beaver?

[Pookie]

Ladies and Gents - a sneak peak at an article that I wrote that will run on Sportsnet this week that seeks to discuss the Canadian content issue with TFC. Long and short, we have 9 Canadians on our roster and start them routinely. Logic dictates that players from our country are developmentally behind those in the USA. See what Vancouver and Montreal are doing to help the CSA, which is the bare minimum. Why are we the developmental bitch for the CSA while Vancouver and Montreal rise in the standings?

Tactics and coaching and MLSE aside, this roster mismanagement, IMO, may be one of the biggest issues facing the club. I am posting it here for discussion purposes. Tough one for me to write given the quality of character of some of our Canadian boys.



The problem with Toronto FC may be that they have too many Canadians on it.

For a guy who has stood and chanted for our country against the likes of Ecuador and St Kitts, this reeks of blasphemy. That said, it may be one of the main reasons behind our pathetic record since 2007.

To explain this theory, one must first understand that Major League Soccer is a developmental league. It was envisioned as a domestic top tier league which could provide opportunity for American players and ultimately feed the United States’ drive for improvement in soccer performance worldwide.

As a result, they instituted a quota type system which specified the number of US born (or Domestic) players that must be on a team’s roster in order to prevent a flood of international, and presumably better players from taking spaces. In a developmental league, this makes a degree of sense.

In 2011, citing a need to ensure that Canadian teams were competitive, MLS relaxed the rules for the Canadian teams and allowed them to count US born players as “Domestic”. This simply meant that for the domestic portion of their rosters, Canadian MLS teams could use US or Canadian players. But the Canadian Soccer Association objected, citing the USA’s drive to use MLS as a developmental league and spoke up on behalf of Canadian players. We too want to improve our Canadian National Team performance and secure jobs for local kids to give them an opportunity to earn a living while playing soccer.

What followed was a compromise but an important one when you look at the performance of Toronto FC. Under the new rules, Canadian teams need to have a minimum of 3 roster spaces made available to Canadian players. However, Canadian players are still treated as “International” when it comes to US based team rosters. That means that for a Canadian to play in the MLS in the USA, they have beat out an international player.

Why does it all matter?

Simply put the talent level in Canada isn’t where it is in the United States. Canada is ranked 75^th in the world while the United States has been ranked anywhere from 14^th to 29^th over the last 2 years. If you were going fishing for talent, where would you dip your pole?

Setting tactics and formations aside, at its most simple form soccer is a game full of 1 v 1 battles. From a pure skill perspective, if you had a player from a developmental system ranked 75^th vs one from the United States, who might you expect to win? Surely, there are individual standouts that buck the trend but the law of averages dictates that a roster with relatively weaker talent is bound to lose more often than not.

But aren’t Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal in the same boat with respect to this quota system? Why is our performance so bad relative to theirs? The answer appears to be in how each chooses to manage the quota within their rosters.

The Montreal Impact are doing the bare minimum to help the CSA as they employ just 3 Canadians on their roster. Of those 3, only Patrice Bernier has played, logging 315 minutes of action in Montreal’s 810 minutes played thus far this season. The 3^rd Canadian roster spot is taken with back up keeper Greg Sutton.

Vancouver Whitecaps FC only employs 4 Canadians. In their most recent game, a 1-0 victory against the Columbus Crew not 1 of those Canadians made it off the bench. Alain Rochat has logged 237 minutes of a total of 720 minutes thus far this season, making him the only Canadian to see action.

Toronto FC currently have 9 Canadians on their active roster and unlike their fellow Canadian teams they tend to use them. In their 7^th loss of the season delivered this week, 4 of those Canadians were in the starting 11.

In fact, the Club’s first designated player, Julian De Guzman was brought in mainly because of his birth certificate. At the time of courting him, Manager Mo Johnston indicated “it's not about bringing in a 34- or 35-year-old, I'm looking for someone 28, 29 and I believe it should be a Canadian.”

The decision by TFC to employ more than the required number of Canadians begs the question, is this a smart way to manage the roster? Given that both Vancouver and Montreal are earning points and position in the table (3^rd and 6^th respectively) by following the Canadian roster quota to a minimum and using those they do have sparingly, the answer would appear to be no. I haven’t even touched the idea of roster decimation which is what happens when the Canadian National Team calls down for players and games conflict with our own.

Further, these Canadian roster players on Toronto become highly untradeable assets. Recall that the MLS Roster rules allow US born players to be counted as Domestic but the return favour is not granted. A Canadian born player does not count as a US Domestic player. That means that for a Canadian to be traded to the US, a precious “International Roster Spot” would need to used in order to fit them within the team. How likely is it that a Matt Stinson is going to beat out available international players? Not likely considering that only 8 Canadians have earned jobs with the remaining 16 MLS teams south of the border.

Toronto FC fans can talk about coaching changes and tactics in light of our horrendous performance in MLS since well… our existence. But until this fundamental philosophical issue is addressed, Toronto FC will be playing with a handicap. The team needs to decide whether we are an MLS club or simply doing the CSA a favour. I'm not sure about you but I'm not comfortable in paying the highest season ticket prices in the league just to be the “Academy” for the Canadian National Team.

Perhaps a bigger question is whether these 6 extra rosters spaces that Toronto has given to Canadian players was done for competitive reasons or something else such as marketing to local interests? Either or, both reasons appear to be failing miserably.

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[Auzzy]

Anybody else think of something completely different when reading the thread title?

[Yeoman]

because too many people here bitched about us nothing having enough canadian players on the field at all times and the FO took that to fucking heart

[Richard]

Anybody else think of something completely different when reading the thread title?

I read "Bieber" lol.

[DoubleUp]

I just think the domestic rule should go both ways, so we dont feel obligated to keep Canadian kids on our roster.

[Beach_Red]

I wish they'd make Klinsmann's report public. I wonder if the domestic quoatas were taken into account at all....

[DoubleUp]

Honestly though! if america is our competitor.Why would they want us to develop players as good or better than theirs.

Why would the league(american) even want a canadian team winning the mls???

[Pookie]

^ because it is a shared revenue league and the cash cow that is TFC is not giving up the milk.

The other thing that is interesting for me in all of this is that while the quota exists, we have gone "all in" when implementing it.

Montreal has 3, Vancouver has 4. Only 1 of them play for each team and even then, the 1 that plays, earns less than half the minutes available. We have 9 in total and 4 of them started the last game.

If they are the best available AND Canadian, have at it. But something tells me that the talent pool in the US is a little deeper than our current available options. Down the road this may change but for now, it isn't comparable.

Trade hampering is another curious element to our decision to use 9 roster spaces on Canadians. Seems like marketing and/or financial interests were drivers behind the decision because there is no competitive advantage and in doing so, your trade options are limited.

[denime]

Anybody else think of something completely different when reading the thread title?

You were not the only one,who thought of something completely different when reading the thread title.


Oh,almost forgot, good article Pookie

[ArmenJBX]

Pookie:

I agree with you in that we need more American players. If people look back at my old posts, I've been saying we need MLS quality players and, most of the time, those are young, American players like Eric Avila, Luis Silva, etc etc.

I disagree with the core premise of your article, however - these Canadian players on our roster are not terrible. Ashtone Morgan, Matt Stinson, and Terry Dunfield are all serviceable, cheap options for MLS teams. Oscar Cordon, Keith Makubuya and Quillan Roberts fill out the depth.

The problem comes from USING these players instead of filling our roster with them. I cannot stress this fact enough - our academy graduates should not be the first choice in some positions AND the only choices off the bench. I'm sorry, but as long as we look to our academy, we will not find immediate success.

There is an easy solution to the issue of real depth on this team; get rid of Julian de Guzman, use the 350k towards 3, $100-115k players, and fill out the roster properly. There's a big difference when your bench has Adrian Cann and Miguel Aceval instead of Logan Emory and Doneil Henry. We need MLS quality players, we don't have them.

We are strangers in our own league.

[Jack]

It does make sense.

[Nuvinho]

The answer you'll get from TFC is that we want to develop local talent. Which is fine, but start now - start from guys in the academy, don't get players already developed and unable to fit the system. I am talking about 3 guys on our team that didn't come from our academy teams and are probably harder to teach them a new system.

[TFC07]

Most of Canadian players on this team are kids who rarely play. I am not buying this article especially given some few bright spots on this team are young Canadian players.

Lol this is really just getting out of hand now. Hopefully TFC win their next game to shut people up.

[ryan]

Lets not let this JDG disaster paint a wide picture to blame an entire nation of players. Silly article. The League MVP is a canadian and the Impact tried their asses off in the offseason to acquire canadian defender Hainault.

It really doesn't matter where the player comes from. We should get the best players we can, at the best price because of the goofy as salary rules of MLS. For 40K, Morgan, Stinson and Henry are pretty good players I want on my roster...and I mean for fuck's sake they are just kids.

[Couchy81]

It is true and even to this day I see posts from people on here saying they'd rather lose games than field a team full of American players....

[Pookie]

Lets not let this JDG disaster paint a wide picture to blame an entire nation of players. Silly article. The League MVP is a canadian and the Impact tried their asses off in the offseason to acquire canadian defender Hainault.

It really doesn't matter where the player comes from. We should get the best players we can, at the best price because of the goofy as salary rules of MLS. For 40K, Morgan, Stinson and Henry are pretty good players I want on my roster...and I mean for fuck's sake they are just kids.

Ryan, I'm not knocking Canadian players and in fact my premise is yours. We should get the best players we can. If they are Canadian, all the better.

We absolutely have to make room for 3 Canadians. That's the rule. So, with the other 6 spaces are you telling me that Stinson and Cordon and Dunfield are the best available players in either the USA or Canada?

Seems a little weird to me that if our talent pool is so good why Vancouver only plays one of theirs and for half the available minutes as does Montreal. Is the OSA renowned for developing talent in this country and we have the inside edge? And with this talent, only 8 players from this country have been good enough to find work and beat our International players in the USA?

Vancouver is 3rd in their conference. Montreal is 6th. We are dead last. Seems roster management might be a contributing factor.

Are we signing these kids because they are the best available or simply to promote TFC-Academy which is about the only bright spot to hang a season ticket renewal campaign on?

Or to cozy up to the CSA in order to be awarded national events at BMO? That last one is simply speculation on my part but in terms of doing our job to support the CSA's wishes, we are certainly over-delivering and hey, did you get your tickets for our qualifiers to be held exclusively at BMO? Curious... no?

[ag futbol]

Pookie:

I agree with you in that we need more American players. If people look back at my old posts, I've been saying we need MLS quality players and, most of the time, those are young, American players like Eric Avila, Luis Silva, etc etc.

I disagree with the core premise of your article, however - these Canadian players on our roster are not terrible. Ashtone Morgan, Matt Stinson, and Terry Dunfield are all serviceable, cheap options for MLS teams. Oscar Cordon, Keith Makubuya and Quillan Roberts fill out the depth.

The problem comes from USING these players instead of filling our roster with them. I cannot stress this fact enough - our academy graduates should not be the first choice in some positions AND the only choices off the bench. I'm sorry, but as long as we look to our academy, we will not find immediate success.

There is an easy solution to the issue of real depth on this team; get rid of Julian de Guzman, use the 350k towards 3, $100-115k players, and fill out the roster properly. There's a big difference when your bench has Adrian Cann and Miguel Aceval instead of Logan Emory and Doneil Henry. We need MLS quality players, we don't have them.

We are strangers in our own league.

Agreed. And I've pondered the 2 vs. 3 DP argument as well. Two definitely seems more optimal under the currents salary structure.

The bottom portion of a MLS roster is normally filled with non-contributors anyways. Who cares if they are Canadians or US college kids? Most of them won't contribute and the ones that do won't be that different from an Ashton Morgan or Stinson, except with less upside.

[ExiledRed]

No the real problem are the number of 'eager beavers' to be honest.

The ones that are so eager to see base attributes like grit, determination and individual talent, intellectualized to a point that only the technical intricacies are worthy of discussion.

[ArmenJBX]

Exactly. Spots 24-30 are not that important in the end, but spots 1-18 need to be SOLID.

Do we have 18 solid players in this roster?
I don't think so.

We have:

Kocic
Eckersley
Cann
Aceval
Frings
Morgan
Avila
Dunfield
De Guzman
Silva
Lambe
Koevermans
Soolsma
Johnson
Plata

and...

um....

? Is that all. 15 players, of which maybe 12 perform well. The rest are filler players at best or substitute/reserves when required.
We need 18 players. 18 solid, MLS level players. That won't happen with 3 DPs.

Actually, if you ask me, we need to seriously reevaluate our DPs; are ANY of them worth it right now? Is DK much more valuable than, say, Mac Kandji? If Chris Pontius, or Wondo, or Maicon, are putting up those numbers, is DK's DP status worth it?

Same with the CDM's in this league, compared to Frings and de Guzman - because, right now, I'd rather have Adam Moffat, or Sam Cronin, or Kyle Beckerman, than an aging Frings and a clearly out-of-place de Guzman.

[Island Man]

I would take Beckerman over pretty much any CM in the league.

[Beach_Red]

It really is sad that this team has been so poorly run for so long that this is what we're talking about now.

[Abou Sky]

Although there is SOME truth to the article it reeks of 'grasping at straws' to answer the question of why TFC is losing.

IMO Henry is going to be a giant, not a desirable pickup for US teams? GREAT, we can keep him at a discount.

Stinson is meh, but young and could be great.

Morgan is pretty freaking amazing IMO.

All of them 'cheap to keep' because of MLS rules.

Dunfield... Well, I don't know how he still gets dressed, maybe he has dirt on Winter or something.

Again, there is some truth, but a lot of these Canadian kids are good AND cheap, they add depth and we get to buy a dollar for fifty cents with some.

We need some players added, but not replaced.

Of course, being middle of the road doesn't get you readers or attention so I get the need to be a bit OTT with language.

[ArmenJBX]

It's not about too many Canadians.
It's about not enough Americans.

We need yanks to win, plain. and. simple.

Because, really, this is an American league. Montreal saw that, Vancouver saw it, Aron Winter didn't want to acknowledge it.

I want 11 American players on this roster, one for every position.

[Pookie]

Although there is SOME truth to the article it reeks of 'grasping at straws' to answer the question of why TFC is losing.

IMO Henry is going to be a giant, not a desirable pickup for US teams? GREAT, we can keep him at a discount.

Stinson is meh, but young and could be great.

Morgan is pretty freaking amazing IMO.

All of them 'cheap to keep' because of MLS rules.

Dunfield... Well, I don't know how he still gets dressed, maybe he has dirt on Winter or something.

Again, there is some truth, but a lot of these Canadian kids are good AND cheap, they add depth and we get to buy a dollar for fifty cents with some.

We need some players added, but not replaced.

Of course, being middle of the road doesn't get you readers or attention so I get the need to be a bit OTT with language.

Starter good or depth good? None of the 7 Canadians used in Montreal or Vancouver are good enough to start or even secure reasonable minutes.

Both clubs are playing rosters that mirror US teams in terms of American and International usage of slots.

We found 4 Canadian players worthy enough to start and have lost 7 games in total. If we offered these 4 up for trade, are there any takers? Cann, Dunfield, JDG and Morgan. Or could we replace the others that were not dressed or on the bench with an American signing that would put Dunfield, Cann, etc on the bench?

If there are 11 positions on a team and if 3 or 4 of those players could be replaced by better ones... why are we not doing it? We are simply putting out a starting roster each game that does not match up with our opponents.

[Pookie]

... and sky, we haven't even really touched on the logic of having 4 of your 11 starters potentially available for international duty when building a roster.

Nor have we talked about the reality that US teams generally don't take Canadians on when it comes to trades because it takes away an international slot. They have to be really good (ie. Will Johnson, Dwayne De Rosario). A depth player like Stinson has virtually no trade value because of the international slot he would take. Therefore, the decision to sign 9 of our assets under the Canadian flag essentially locks us into them.

[SoccMan]

I see some validity in this article,however, it's not difficult we simply give up too many goals. Our defenders suck all of them,yes Eckersley included,Adrian Cann sucked before he still sucks now after the injury. Aceval yes he sucks too, but I think that's one we can all agree on. Ashton Morgan he is still a kid, still has to mature they are killing him now, he should not be starting every game he should be gradually learning the trade, Doneil Henry same goes for him. Emory is also a kid who might be decent one day but he is not ready yet. What's left Harden don't even go there, the only one that for me showed that he might belong and can be legit is the Jamaican player Williams who in the little that he played last season looked pretty good. Eckersley was having problems getting any playing time in the lower divisions in England he hardly played and I can see why. Adrian Cann played a little in the lower divisions in Scandanavia nothing great and even there found it hard to getting a starting position. Therefore, with these kind of defenders is it any wonder we give up so many goals, it should not be a surprise!

[Beach_Red]

Eckersley and Cann would be fine if the other two guys on the backline were better. In its entire history this team has only had about three games with a real defender when Olivier Teliby was here. How many years ago was that now?

[ryan]

Ryan, I'm not knocking Canadian players and in fact my premise is yours. We should get the best players we can. If they are Canadian, all the better.

We absolutely have to make room for 3 Canadians. That's the rule. So, with the other 6 spaces are you telling me that Stinson and Cordon and Dunfield are the best available players in either the USA or Canada?

Seems a little weird to me that if our talent pool is so good why Vancouver only plays one of theirs and for half the available minutes as does Montreal. Is the OSA renowned for developing talent in this country and we have the inside edge? And with this talent, only 8 players from this country have been good enough to find work and beat our International players in the USA?

Vancouver is 3rd in their conference. Montreal is 6th. We are dead last. Seems roster management might be a contributing factor.

Are we signing these kids because they are the best available or simply to promote TFC-Academy which is about the only bright spot to hang a season ticket renewal campaign on?

Or to cozy up to the CSA in order to be awarded national events at BMO? That last one is simply speculation on my part but in terms of doing our job to support the CSA's wishes, we are certainly over-delivering and hey, did you get your tickets for our qualifiers to be held exclusively at BMO? Curious... no?

Are Stinson, Cordon and Dunfield the worst 3 players in the MLS? One thing to note about these 3, Cordon never makes the bench and Stinson/Dunfield are mainly playing because a) we've suffered injuries at MF and b) our DP mid JDG is not worth starting.
So we have 2 bench/reserve players and 1 reserve here. What could we be doing different? We're up against the cap, so it's not as if we can drop these guys and go spend 100K on someone else. So who are we to spend Cordon's 32K on? Stinson's 42K? Dunfield is a decent argument at 65K you can do much better..

I don't really see this as a "Canadian" problem.


A club should have young players coming up through it's Academy (sorry to say but this is Canada and that's what's coming through our system), so what are you suggesting we do about that? Move our academy to another country then? Develop players for the US program? I get the whole "OMG WE HAVE TO WIN NAO!" crap that's going around because of the years of futility this club has had, but lets stop acting like players like Morgan and Henry haven't shown potential of being good players in this league. It's not like other MLS teams don't have young players doing the same, their core team just happens to be performing better and getting results we aren't.

It's not the Canadian players fault that Johnson has missed wide about a billion headers inside the 6yd box this season, nor is it their fault Frings dun goofed 2 straight games, or Koevermans keeps drilling them into the keeper. We wouldn't even be having this conversation if those players executed and we had 7-10pts right now.


We're dead last because many reasons, having Canadian players is not one of them. Our most dangerous threat off a corner scored a goal last night, as he showed during the London qualifiers, and he's a Canadian. Perhaps we should bench him cause he's a Canuck and lob more to the American Johnson, who's having such great success right?


As for the insinuation that TFC fields Canadians to get CMNT matches at BMO, you're off base. CMNT plays at BMO because BMO is actually the "National Soccer Team Stadium" and are obligated to play matches at the venue on an annual basis. There's no tie to TFC for that.

[Pookie]

Are Stinson, Cordon and Dunfield the worst 3 players in the MLS? One thing to note about these 3, Cordon never makes the bench and Stinson/Dunfield are mainly playing because a) we've suffered injuries at MF and b) our DP mid JDG is not worth starting.
So we have 2 bench/reserve players and 1 reserve here. What could we be doing different? We're up against the cap, so it's not as if we can drop these guys and go spend 100K on someone else. So who are we to spend Cordon's 32K on? Stinson's 42K? Dunfield is a decent argument at 65K you can do much better..

I don't really see this as a "Canadian" problem.


A club should have young players coming up through it's Academy (sorry to say but this is Canada and that's what's coming through our system), so what are you suggesting we do about that? Move our academy to another country then? Develop players for the US program? I get the whole "OMG WE HAVE TO WIN NAO!" crap that's going around because of the years of futility this club has had, but lets stop acting like players like Morgan and Henry haven't shown potential of being good players in this league. It's not like other MLS teams don't have young players doing the same, their core team just happens to be performing better and getting results we aren't.

It's not the Canadian players fault that Johnson has missed wide about a billion headers inside the 6yd box this season, nor is it their fault Frings dun goofed 2 straight games, or Koevermans keeps drilling them into the keeper. We wouldn't even be having this conversation if those players executed and we had 7-10pts right now.


We're dead last because many reasons, having Canadian players is not one of them. Our most dangerous threat off a corner scored a goal last night, as he showed during the London qualifiers, and he's a Canadian. Perhaps we should bench him cause he's a Canuck and lob more to the American Johnson, who's having such great success right?


As for the insinuation that TFC fields Canadians to get CMNT matches at BMO, you're off base. CMNT plays at BMO because BMO is actually the "National Soccer Team Stadium" and are obligated to play matches at the venue on an annual basis. There's no tie to TFC for that.

The Academy is definitely the way to go. However, you are drawing from players that are just recently removed from a system that has us at 75th in the world. The Ontario Soccer Association (and CSA) aren't exactly having their development model copied worldwide. The Academy will pay long term dividends with the odd diamond in the rough.

This isn't a Canadian vs American debate. Morgan may well indeed have earned his spot on the roster and there is an argument that he could beat out American. It is a debate about players winning a job based on merit. If there are 3 spots that must be used on Canadians fine. Was there a competition for the other 6 spots? Is Terry Dunfield the best available mid-fielder in North America?

As for the CSA-BMO Connection, "National Soccer Stadium" is more of a marketing term than anything else. CSA is not obligated to use it. For example, Saputo Stadium hosted the 2008 qualifiers despite our "National Soccer Stadium" status. Consideration was given to Vancouver and Montreal but their facilities supposedly weren't ready at the time for the earlier games. This next round and the Centennial match with the USA is pure choice. MLSE shares in the management of BMO. CSA opted to play it there and lobbied the MLS for the Canadian quota and we have given more jobs to Canadian players than the other 2 teams combined. Connection? Can't prove it. Just seems curious.

[TFC07]

So if you're going to give this much credit for Canadian players hurting TFC, then wouldn't it be fair to give credit to Canadian players for making it far and beating up best MLS teams (American teams filled with best American players in MLS) in CCL?