What ?Originally Posted by Rene Kingsriver
Let me check U-Sector
5 star
4 star
3 star
2 star
1 star
I admire their loyalty but ....What ?
Let me check U-Sector
Moderator
I'm honestly interested to hear the formula used by the person who gave him a 4/5 for the month. That's basically a grade of A for a month where we didn't earn a single point. Of course, it also might just be someone trolling the poll, to get a reaction from us.
As for me, I gave him a 1. I think the team has deserved better on a couple of occasions, and I don't think the tactics have been a 100% shambles, but I'm hard pressed to justify more than a 1 for the manager of a team that is 0-7.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
reminder it was i, forums superstar azerban, that first sussed out winter in february the year of our lord (pbuh) 2011
since he's successfully accomplished exactly and precisely what i assumed he was going to accomplish, i can do nothing else but award him 5 stars
Oh fuck do I ever agree. As far as his time with TFC, it should be over.
Last edited by trane; 04-30-2012 at 07:25 PM.
Agreed. Again this is why I am frustrated and disappointed. He kind of seems to get it, but then he does something that is just puzzling, and the team commits its regular patented defensive brain fart, and anything that seemed to be going well is rendered completely useless.
What was it that alerted you so early?
Was it the endless pages of bullshit about 'culture' and how we were going to play 'attractive posession based football' (as if this wasn't every fucking team out there's ambition)?
remember that fucking booklet
lmbo
The first major gunshot across the bow was when he said he'd talked to Ruud Gullit. If anyone's read the Beckham Experiment, Gullit was a completely absentee manager who couldn't understand why players weren't able to just slot into a european system and was basically there for his name.
Given DeGuzman's comment last mont about Bob doing most of the talking, this again comes to mind.
Gordon's comment that Gullit and Winter were the same person corroborates this too.
Wow a 5?
Sorry, but if the team was 5-2, what would he get a spot on the "Wall of Honour"?
the 5 was Azerban, taking the piss.
Moderator
I suspect the fives and four are just people trying to elicit a reaction. I don't see how anyone, even if they want to keep Winter, could justify higher than a 3/5 in their own mind for the month of April.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
it certainly won't improve his rating. you can give a 4 or a 5, but when 98% of of us are giving a 1 or 2 it'll reflect evenly. methinks next month having usernames show up next to a vote would help curb the wisenheimers (note: are you fucking kidding me? "wisenheimers" shows up on spellcheck, and asks me to replace it with "windjammers"? is that even a thing!?)
Not sure about this version of the board but the last version if you clicked view poll results without actually having placed a vote, it would display usernames next to their choice
That depends on whether or not the poll creator selected the option to "show who voted" when setting up the poll.
Toronto FC baby...best team everrrrrrrrrr -Jozy
preki came in and stated we were going to be playing defensive-minded for much of our possession.
4's and 5's that's too funny.
gave him a 1. no 0 was available. Can we please have the scale expanded to include negative numbers?
rated 1 star. lowest available. end of my analysis.
Frings scores that penalty last game and they keep playing til the final whistle and we win. Frings doesn't turn it over in the first 20 seconds the game before and we at least tie. Those aren't on Winter - unless you're saying maybe he should upgrade Frings. (and I, in no way, am trying to throw Frings under the bus - clearly he's a bright spot for us - these just happen to be the first examples that come to mind)
Having said that I still only gave him a 2. I'd love to give him more but with results being what they are... I'm in the "we should probably give him the year" camp and I still can't rate him higher.
Last edited by Ben - D.O.W.; 05-01-2012 at 01:26 PM.
OR, Frings scores the penalty and RSL adapt their play to the scoreline, prevent Lambes goal and still win.
The errors change games, if they are not made the game does not change and the outcome is different, but not necessarily the outcome you want.
I think a 5 was from Tim90...
If "ifs and buts" were candy and nuts...
I do believe RSL had 2 goals called back did they not? I go by results, not by postulating what could have been if things went our way more than the other. This is the whole "bad luck" argument all over again.
I get that - and I'm not rating him based on those 'could-have-been' wins. My point (and I obviously didn't make it clearly) was that Winter's tactics aren't the cause of those individual errors, nor in the case of Fring's mistakes are Winter's selections at fault (unless someone actually wants to argue that Fring shouldn't be a starter when available - I doubt there's any takers). So yeah I probably rate a couple categories higher than most of the people giving 1's - hence my 2.
Edit: Yeah rereading my last post - that's not really clear. My bad.
No you're right (as is everyone else who makes this point) that Winter cannot reasonably be blamed for Frings giving the ball away seconds into a game or some other mindfart other players might have.
The point those of us on this side of the argument have made though is that there are two influential points when addressing this concern.
1) All players make mistakes.
2) Does the coach do what is necessary to reduce those errors both through individual preparation and team preparation.
These arguments themselves have a lot of breadth. The first point addresses the fact that players on both sides make mistakes and so as a coach you have to have your team mentally prepared to both make as few mistakes as is possible as well as making sure when the other team makes a mistake, you capitalize on it. I am not sure we can confidently say Winter has done either.
The second point about preparation is key. It encompasses many aspects of the manager's role including making sure that the game tactics don't put particular pressure on any one player or leave team shortcomings open for exploitation. It also includes the ability a manager has to communicate his strategy to his team and motivate them to employ it effectively. Again, I question Winter's ability to do this.
Now all of this does not excuse player errors. They should be accountable, and ultimately they are. Players that make lots of errors eventually find themselves out of a job. And a player screw-up can definitely lose a game for the whole team. But when you are 0-7 and have only 14 wins in almost 60 games, I think player error being an influential factor in that record has long been thrown out the window. Because it speaks to a team without the necessary preparation and without the necessary tools to compete and overcome individual errors. Team that can do that are the ones that win. I submit that Winter does not provide his team with the tools they need to overcome the struggles of winning a game, which includes individual player errors.
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Not saying I am a Winter fan....but my measuring stick is from when I classify this as pretty much his team....which to me happened on July 20th of last season. That is when most of the trades took place.
So PRE(all the changes) we were 6 wins in 25 matches(All Matches)....POST(now more of less Winter's people) we are 8 wins in 32 matches. I didn't have the time to quickly tally up the draws.......not saying the "POST" era is much better, but just stating that my assessment of him really only starts from when Frings and co. came to the squad.
For the record I gave him a 2.....and I rounded up generously.
Last edited by Ageroo; 05-01-2012 at 02:42 PM. Reason: spelling
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I gave him 2 for April.
My personal opinion Age, you are doing your analysis a disservice.Not saying I am a Winter fan....but my measuring stick is from when I classify this as pretty much his team....which to me happened on July 20th of last season. That is when most of the trades took place.
So PRE(all the changes) we were 6 wins in 25 matches(All Matches)....POST(now more of less Winter's people) we are 8 wins in 32 matches. I didn't have the time to quickly tally up the draws.......not saying the "POST" era is much better, but just stating that my assessment of him really only starts from when Frings and co. came to the squad.
For the record I gave him a 2.....and I rounded up generously.
The Pre-DP era is indicative in it's own right. It shows what Winter can do with a squad he has not had a factor in putting together (not much apparently). That in itself is evidence. Evidence he is limited in his ability to work with players. That evidence itself is augmented by the fact that a signficant amount of players within that grouping went on to have substantially more success elsewhere, pointing to a problem with the coaching, not the players.
Then you have the avec-DP era (current form) and that provides a new set of data upon which to add to the previous set. Proper analysis does not throw out one set in favour of the other, it includes both. And yet on it's own, the current data still shows poor performance. You don't even need the pre-DP data, on it's own, it's pretty bad, but inclusive of previous data, it's even worse.
What is conclusive is that both sets of data reflect poor results but that once the DPs arrived, we went from awful to just bad. Hardly a vote of confidence even if you take the most advantageous grouping of data and ignore the pre-DP era.
So going forward, people can group the data any way they like, but I think it is a signifcant mistake to ignore the pre-DP information at your hands. Because that DOES tell you something even if it isn't what you want to be told.
you can also make the claim that some of our players have exited the club and gone on to do absolutely garbage elsewhere, but you also fail to mention the players who performed poorly before him, but performed well with him. let's look at the trades that've been made under him..
maicon santos: good if he has someone to pass back and forth with, but on his own, couldnt cut it alone up front. in a 4-4-2 you could mask the negatives and accentuate the positives, in the 4-3-3-, santos was not at his strongest.
attakora: went on to flounder with SJ, even the earthquakes fans tore him a new one after his first two games after his single handed mistakes cost them two separate matches.
tchani: hasnt seen much of anything with columbus.
gordon: is performing decently, but he scored more goals with us (4 in 8) than he did with chivas (1 in 9)
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