Winters system not working in the MLS

[Doucet3]

Was curious to know if other kinda felt this way, to me it feels like the MLS is very attack oriented and yes we're set up for that but MLS teams are set up to attack and stop attacks where in our 4-3-3 we look like we don't have enough defensive support at times (or defense at all other times).

I think we'd be better set with a 4-4-2 like Manchester United, and no im not bias cause I'm a united fan I've seen it in action and it works, but a similar setup to our current one but the wings at a more central postition, so they can come back and cover the wings, can even have Avila/Silva setup as a 10 man (much like a CAM) and Koevermans at ST.

Just a thought, couldn't hurt right not like we're 7-0.

[Oldtimer]

KC uses 4-3-3 and they are top of the league. The key point is that they know how to adapt it to MLS (for example, they play more a physical style than a tiki-taka style).

[Doucet3]

True I guess 4-3-3 works with a physical touch and a defense line, this team just need a couple new players I think 2 CBs another striker 2 more central mids and I think we'd be pretty good

[ryan]

Did you just change your mind on your own thread statement just 2 posts in?

[Doucet3]

No it's not working we're still 0-7 I see the point old timer is making but were not making it work, I should have worded it as Winter 4-3-3 system isn't working lol, I do think it has potential but as of right now it's really not working KC is a whole nother story

[__wowza]

KC uses 4-3-3 and they are top of the league. The key point is that they know how to adapt it to MLS (for example, they play more a physical style than a tiki-taka style).

i've said it before, and i'll say it again, their 4-3-3 involves 3 strikers instead of 2 wingers. they have forwards who cut inside and take shots, we have wingers who stay wide and deliver crosses. the only one of our guys who does the SKC is plata, and the only reason he does that is because hes fast enough to get the ball to the attacking third with no support.

if we had guys who could service koevs, a natural poacher, we'd either be scoring goals (the last few games of last season) or forcing their defenders to double up on him giving room for our other forwards to take shots (the galaxy CCL series).

[Doucet3]

i've said it before, and i'll say it again, their 4-3-3 involves 3 strikers instead of 2 wingers. they have forwards who cut inside and take shots, we have wingers who stay wide and deliver crosses. the only one of our guys who does the SKC is plata, and the only reason he does that is because hes fast enough to get the ball to the attacking third with no support.

if we had guys who could service koevs, a natural poacher, we'd either be scoring goals (the last few games of last season) or forcing their defenders to double up on him giving room for our other forwards to take shots (the galaxy CCL series).

This right here is why THERE 4-3-3 works and not ours

[Jack]

Formation isn't the problem. Execution is.

[trane]

^ Exactly.

[C.Ronaldo]

I was actually wondering what the point of 4-3-3 is if all your doing is running out wide to cross it to a 5ft taller receiver every time

[[NBF]]

Was curious to know if other kinda felt this way, to me it feels like the MLS is very attack oriented and yes we're set up for that but MLS teams are set up to attack and stop attacks where in our 4-3-3 we look like we don't have enough defensive support at times (or defense at all other times).

I think we'd be better set with a 4-4-2 like Manchester United, and no im not bias cause I'm a united fan I've seen it in action and it works, but a similar setup to our current one but the wings at a more central postition, so they can come back and cover the wings, can even have Avila/Silva setup as a 10 man (much like a CAM) and Koevermans at ST.

Just a thought, couldn't hurt right not like we're 7-0.

Ive seen it, it works.....lol


Defense: I think its been said already this team is lacking a quality centre back pairing. Say what you want about Miguel Aceval, but he's a good enough defender that he could be compared to a Chad Marshall on any other team that is better organized.

Midfield: Dunfield needs to sit or retire. DeGuzman, needs to start, you cant turn this around if the team continues to play favorites and bench DeGuzman in favour of Dunfield. That just reflects badly on your management skills. Avila and Silva need to get on the field at the same time, you just cant sit them and expect them to get better.

Forward: Koevermans needs to get healthy. A fat DP is embarrassing.

*Avila and Silva need to get on the 1st team:

--------------------------Kocic-----------------------
Eckersley------(#1-NEED)---------Aceval-------Morgan
-------------Cann/Harden-----------------------------
-------------------------Frings-----------------------
---------------DeGuzman---------*Avila--------------
---------------------------------Dunfield-------------
*Silva-----------------------------------------Johnson
Lambe/Plata------------------------------------------
----------------------Koevermans---------------------

[Jack]

Ive seen it, it works.....lol


Defense: I think its been said already this team is lacking a quality centre back pairing. Say what you want about Miguel Aceval, but he's a good enough defender that he could be compared to a Chad Marshall on any other team that is better organized.

Midfield: Dunfield needs to sit or retire. DeGuzman, needs to start, you cant turn this around if the team continues to play favorites and bench DeGuzman in favour of Dunfield. That just reflects badly on your management skills. Avila and Silva need to get on the field at the same time, you just cant sit them and expect them to get better.

Forward: Koevermans needs to get healthy. A fat DP is embarrassing.

*Avila and Silva need to get on the 1st team:

--------------------------Kocic-----------------------
Eckersley------(#1-NEED)---------Aceval-------Morgan
-------------Cann/Harden-----------------------------
-------------------------Frings-----------------------
---------------DeGuzman---------*Avila--------------
---------------------------------Dunfield-------------
*Silva-----------------------------------------Johnson
Lambe/Plata------------------------------------------
----------------------Koevermans---------------------

I mostly agree with this, except I'd probably put Avila up higher and pull Silva back, but I think they both could work in either slot. I also agree we need to fill the gaping hole in the centre of our backline.

[Nuvinho]

Are we 1 top CB away from being competitive? Are we 1 year away from getting out of the JDG contract and having both Silva/Avila play infront of Frings?

I think we are.

[Ajax TFC]

The problem isn't the system, the problem is game day player selection. To play possession football, "hard work" just isnt enough. you need players who can pass, receive, be aware of their surroundings, and be aggressive when the other team has the ball. Fielding players like Dunfield, who are nothing more than "Hard workers" (if he even is that) doesn't get you wins. We have players who can do that, now it's a matter of Winter actually selecting them

[ArmenJBX]

It will work eventually - but only when it can be kept alive will we flourish. We rely on Frings and Koevermans and use academy players as backups. This is a sign of both a lack of depth and an inability to properly round out the roster.

Sporting KC's 4-3-3 is working because each player knows their job and are physically strong enough to do them. Plata makes the left wing useless, the midfield trio is nowhere near good enough, and our centerbacks are slow.

[ArmenJBX]

The problem isn't the system, the problem is game day player selection. To play possession football, "hard work" just isnt enough. you need players who can pass, receive, be aware of their surroundings, and be aggressive when the other team has the ball. Fielding players like Dunfield, who are nothing more than "Hard workers" (if he even is that) doesn't get you wins. We have players who can do that, now it's a matter of Winter actually selecting them

Also, this, x1000

[CoachGT]

Formation isn't the problem. Execution is.

This is it.

Bear in mind, this isn't "Winter's" system. It is a system of play determined by Klinsmann based upon his recommendations after reviewing Toronto's objectives and expectations for fans (and players) in making his report to MLSE management. Winter was a man determined to be suited to working with the system, supported by Mariner, a man who understood MLS. 4-3-3 and variations have been around for a long time. And many other formations are offshoots of it - for example, 4-5-1 just means the two wingers fall back some.

Execution is a problem, but I also think mental toughness/focus is an equal problem right now. Everyone (including the players) fear for the worst. Players cannot fear making mistakes or we get what we've seen recently.

[jloome]

i've said it before, and i'll say it again, their 4-3-3 involves 3 strikers instead of 2 wingers. they have forwards who cut inside and take shots, we have wingers who stay wide and deliver crosses. the only one of our guys who does the SKC is plata, and the only reason he does that is because hes fast enough to get the ball to the attacking third with no support.

if we had guys who could service koevs, a natural poacher, we'd either be scoring goals (the last few games of last season) or forcing their defenders to double up on him giving room for our other forwards to take shots (the galaxy CCL series).

Didn't this week. We were outcrossed dramatically.

[Oranje]

Are we 1 top CB away from being competitive? Are we 1 year away from getting out of the JDG contract and having both Silva/Avila play infront of Frings?

I think we are.

I feel for Winter's 4-3-3 to work we are in need of 2 CB’s. We need a big, athletic man-marker who is a stud in the air (a younger Cann/experienced Henry) so we don’t keep getting burnt on set pieces and a speedy, technically sound CB who is comfortable with the ball at his feet so we can play out of the back without Frings doesn’t have to come so far back to get the ball. Right now the average age of CBs who have started is ~30 and there is a lot of KMs on those legs. All the speed on our back line is on the flanks, which leaves the massive gaps to be exploited by a speedy CF (a la Chicago).

[denime]

The problem isn't the system, the problem is game day player selection. To play possession football, "hard work" just isnt enough. you need players who can pass, receive, be aware of their surroundings, and be aggressive when the other team has the ball. Fielding players like Dunfield, who are nothing more than "Hard workers" (if he even is that) doesn't get you wins. We have players who can do that, now it's a matter of Winter actually selecting them

Agree 100%

[T-boy]

Formation isn't the problem. Execution is.

The formation is fine. But if you listened to De Klerk and Rongen's description of the "system" during half time of the RSL game, you can see how complicated this version of 4-3-3 is. I have 2 masters degree's, and I honestly couldn't understand the complexity of the system! So, its no wonder that the TFC players are struggling to work out the system.

Football doesn't NEED to be so complicated. Winter needs to get the team doing the basics well, before getting them to play this rediculously complicated numbering and passing/movement system. Listening to De Klerk describe the system was mind numbing! I bet some of the TFC players don't have a clue what its all about, so its no wonder they can't play it!

[T-boy]

The problem isn't the system, the problem is game day player selection. To play possession football, "hard work" just isnt enough. you need players who can pass, receive, be aware of their surroundings, and be aggressive when the other team has the ball. Fielding players like Dunfield, who are nothing more than "Hard workers" (if he even is that) doesn't get you wins. We have players who can do that, now it's a matter of Winter actually selecting them

I honestly can't name an MLS player who can play like that!

We should sign Yaya Toure or Michael Essien, cos they fit that description perfectly!

Winter's problem is that he's trying to get MacDonalds "chefs" to try and make gourmet French food. It just doesn't work!

[ag futbol]

Meh, personally I don't buy the "aron winter has a sophisticated plan, it just doesn't work here" line.

To me he just wants to auto-pilot a system with a bunch of great players, which I really haven't been convinced to date that he can either find these players or develop them.

I highly doubt that if he went back to Europe he's be besieged with job offers and the like. Tactical adjustments are important, no matter who you are and where u coach

[Ultra & Proud]

Say what you want about Miguel Aceval, but he's a good enough defender that he could be compared to a Chad Marshall on any other team that is better organized.

Complete crazy talk.

[Juanito]

I've said it before:

4-3-3 only works when you have three strong midfielders controlling the ball.

It works for RSL because Beckerman is really good at what he does.

Other than our ageing "wünderkind" Torsten, we have no one else capable of covering that sort of ground and be effective. De Guzmán is balls, DUNCEfield is balls, every other midfielder we have is ....... balls.

[jabbronies]

The formation is fine. But if you listened to De Klerk and Rongen's description of the "system" during half time of the RSL game, you can see how complicated this version of 4-3-3 is. I have 2 masters degree's, and I honestly couldn't understand the complexity of the system! So, its no wonder that the TFC players are struggling to work out the system.

Football doesn't NEED to be so complicated. Winter needs to get the team doing the basics well, before getting them to play this rediculously complicated numbering and passing/movement system. Listening to De Klerk describe the system was mind numbing! I bet some of the TFC players don't have a clue what its all about, so its no wonder they can't play it!

I was watching the RSL feed, so I missed this. Anyone have a link to it??

[jabbronies]

I've said it before:

4-3-3 only works when you have three strong midfielders controlling the ball.

It works for RSL because Beckerman is really good at what he does.

Other than our ageing "wünderkind" Torsten, we have no one else capable of covering that sort of ground and be effective. De Guzmán is balls, DUNCEfield is balls, every other midfielder we have is ....... balls.

AGREED!!!!!

Our Midfield isn't that great!
Sure Avila and Silva have shown glimpses this season, but we don't have a core to work from aside from Torsten.
This is why I have become so Anti-Deguzman this year. He has faltered big time and it's showing.

[jabbronies]

Say what you want about Miguel Aceval, but he's a good enough defender that he could be compared to a Chad Marshall on any other team that is better organized.

Complete crazy talk.

as a center back??

[mastermixer]

Tough to play this system in a league like MLS where hustle is more valuable then talent. 4-3-3 is executed more successfully when the opposing team plays tactical positioning. We saw our 4-3-3 be successful against CCL teams from Mexico and teams like the LA Galaxy who play a more positional game. With most MLS teams the objective on defence seems to be CHASE AND GET THE BALL BACK... which does not allow your 4-3-3 system to flourish.

[ryan]

Tough to play this system in a league like MLS where hustle is more valuable then talent. 4-3-3 is executed more successfully when the opposing team plays tactical positioning. We saw our 4-3-3 be successful against CCL teams from Mexico and teams like the LA Galaxy who play a more positional game. With most MLS teams the objective on defence seems to be CHASE AND GET THE BALL BACK... which does not allow your 4-3-3 system to flourish.

I disagree. I believe that should we be on top of things we'd have these over pursuing aggressive defenders chasing the ball and getting out of position. At times, we've seen this during the season so far.