Steve Nicol or Thomas Rongen?

[ManUtd4ever]

If Aron Winter resigns or is relieved of his duties as a result of the ongoing crisis enveloping the club, the two most prominent names mentioned as capable replacements have been former New England skipper Steve Nicol and current TFC Academy Director Thomas Rongen. Both of them have impressive MLS credentials on their resumes and would theoretically represent an upgrade within the managerial ranks of our beloved beleaguered franchise.

Would you support such a decision? If not, who who would you entrust to right the good ship TFC?

[RPB_RED_NATION_RPB]

you guys will hang the next one...just as fast

[Technorgasm]

Wonder who I am gonna vote for.???????????????

[Greatest Ripoff]

Wonder who I am gonna vote for.???????????????

And is that not the problem here? Too many fans with a biased view and thinking for the short term.

[Oldtimer]

Thomas Rongen:

• MLS Cup winner (in the old days, yes, but during the same MLS 1.0 era that Nicol was doing well).
• knows the academy players
• knows the US young players
• extensive network in US soccer
• understands how to integrate the academy systems with the first team
• knows how to adapt Dutch methodology to win in a US league
• already on staff, so disruption is minimal

disadvantages: prefers to deal with youth, might not want the job.

Steve Nicole:

• MLS Cup finalist (in the MLS 1.0 era, not so well later)
• well respected in NE
• good contacts in the league
• managed to do well paired with Mariner
• achieved regular playoff runs while working for the cheapest (by far) owner in MLS. What could he do under ML$E?

disadvantages: never won MLS Cup or SS in a decade of trying (did win US open Cup in 2007). Although he uses possession systems -- they are different than what the academy are using, and would mean starting over again.


While both have very strong points, I believe that Thomas Rongen would be the best choice, should replacing Winter be necessary. It would mean not blowing up everything and starting over, which I believe moving to a very different system would entail. KC shows us that 4-3-3 can work provided that you know how to adapt it to MLS (which KC have done). I would actually just swap Winter and Rongen (Winter has academy experience) and do no other changes.

Other options not mentioned in this poll are Mariner in charge or Danny Dichio in charge. Their disadvantages are lack of first team coaching experience.

[Oldtimer]

you guys will hang the next one...just as fast

[Ossington Mental Youth]

you guys will hang the next one...just as fast

this

[ensco]

Why does everyone assume Nicol can't/won't play 4-3-3? He has certainly used it in the past.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-e...houston-dynamo

[ryan]

you guys will hang the next one...just as fast

Indeed.

[Beach_Red]

Why does everyone assume Nicol can't/won't play 4-3-3? He has certainly used it in the past.

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-e...houston-dynamo

I know people dislike hockey references on this board but all this talk of coaches making adjustments to different styles makes me think Jacques Lemaire. One of the flying-est of the flying Frenchmen in Montreal, the most high-paced, wide-open style the NHL had ever seen and then when he takes over the New Jersey Devils he just doesn't have those players and he becomes the most defensive coach in the game.

Sometimes guys who get to the top of their professions can be flexible and know more than one way to do things.

[Section 117]

My question to the board if or when Winter is replaced how long are you guys going to wait to bitch and complain about his replacement?

I am convinced that there people on these boards that will never be happy period.

[Canary10]

What about Caleb Porter?

[ryan]

For every reference where making changes were successful, you can find a reference for where making changes did not, or you can find a reference for staying the course eventually paid off, but also where staying the course never did.

There's no right way to this. Nobody has a crystal ball to say which path will get us to a championship.

[Huyton]

Steve Nicol:
US Open Cup 2007
MLS Coach of the Year Award 2002
MLS Cup Runner-up: 2002, 2005, 2006, 2007
North American SuperLiga 2008

It should be noted that the Paul Mariner/Steve Nicol combination was dissolved in October 2009, when Mariner resigned from New England and went to Plymouth Argyle.

In 2010 and 2011, New England did not make the playoffs.


Rongen was one of the inaugural coaches in MLS, coaching the Tampa Bay Mutiny in their first season in 1996, with whom he won the MLS regular season, and also won MLS Coach of the Year Award. After a year with the Mutiny, Rongen moved to the New England Revolution, which he would coach in 1997 and 1998. After the Revolution, Rongen succeeded Bruce Arena as the head coach of D.C. United, which he would lead to an MLS Cup in 1999. However, Rongen lost his job with United in 2001, and was replaced with Ray Hudson. Upon leaving United, Rongen was appointed head coach of the United States U-20 men's national soccer team, which he coached from 2001 to his appointment as head coach of Chivas USA for the team's inaugural season in 2005. However, ten games into the season, with the team's record standing at one win, one tie, and eight losses, he was let go of his head coaching duties.

Rongen was appointed head coach of the Under-20 United States men's national team again in 2006 and led the team to the 2007 FIFA U-20 World Cup and 2009 FIFA U-20 World Cup. He was fired from that position in May 2011.

I'd move Winter to the Academy, bring in Nicol and let De Klerk and Rongen go.

[Beach_Red]

My question to the board if or when Winter is replaced how long are you guys going to wait to bitch and complain about his replacement?

I am convinced that there people on these boards that will never be happy period.

"If or when"? He didn't sign a lifetime contract, there's definitely a "when" he's gone, it's just a question of if he gets the team turned around and winning or not. Winning would stop all the bitching. Until then all we have is faith and for many people here Winter hasn't been able to get them to have enough faith in him.

[Canary10]

Some info about Porter. Would fit our vision very will, has ridiculously good winning record at Akron, has developed many good American (and Can. in the case of Turncoat Teal) players.


After his sixth year with Akron, Porter boasted a 105-17-14 (.824) record. He entered last season with the highest winning percentage (.841) of all current NCAA Division I coaches. Porter helped Akron to top-five finishes for goals scored and goals-against-average in both the 2009 and 2010 seasons, the only program in the nation to do so.

Porter has recruited and developed 14 players who have been drafted into MLS in the last five years at Akron alone, including No. 1 overall pick Steve Zakuani in 2009, No. 4 pick Teal Bunbury in 2010, No. 2 pick Darlington Nagbe in 2011 and No. 2 pick Darren Mattocks in 2012. Moreover, Akron set an MLS record with five of the first eight selections in the 2011 SuperDraft and seven draftees overall.

Porter, who is known for his attack-minded methods, was named the 2008, 2009 and 2011 Division I All-Ohio Coach of the Year and the 2009 NSCAA National Coach of the Year. He has also won the Mid-American Conference Coach of the Year award five consecutive times since 2007.

[Roogsy]

My question to the board if or when Winter is replaced how long are you guys going to wait to bitch and complain about his replacement?

I am convinced that there people on these boards that will never be happy period.

And you convinced yourself of this despite no playoffs for 5 maybe 6 years and an 0-7 start?

What exactly are we supposed to be happy about?

I never understood people who expect you to be happy about the steaming pile of shit you're handed. "Be grateful! At least it's hard not runny!".

I find it amusing that the criticism of Winter includes an element of being fired "too fast". Um...16 months and 60 games is too fast? I thought we agreed that stepping into another Mo-like promise of multi-year building was not necessary? Did we not learn our lesson? Because if that's the case, bring Mo back and let him finish his 5 year plan!

[Detroit_TFC]

Porter has been courted by a number of MLS teams based on his incredible work at Akron. His tenure with USMNT U-20 (holds that post while keeping his HC job at Akron) has been a bit of a disaster so far, so that has perhaps dropped his value some. I must admit it is thought provoking, he is a proponent of 4-3-3 although his attempts to implement it with U-20s kinda going about as well as it's going with TFC. So the question is, how is he able to do it at Akron and not with I'd assume are more talented nat team kids?

[trane]

My question to the board if or when Winter is replaced how long are you guys going to wait to bitch and complain about his replacement?

I am convinced that there people on these boards that will never be happy period.

Hahahhahhah. This is funny. Roogsy said it what exactly should have we been happy about. Other then CL success, we have been shit.

[Jack]

Hahahaha.

We're 0-7 and I have no indication things are going to get better. My patience is gone.

[Jack]

This poll is a bit silly. Very limited in the options for selection.

[Roogsy]

Hahahhahhah. This is funny. Roogsy said it what exactly should have we been happy about. Other then CL success, we have been shit.

I said it last year and it's coming around to bite us in the ass now.

Nobody set expectations. There are no measurements of accountability.

The team should have said "We are hiring Winter with the expectation of playoffs for this season" or "next season" or "We expect a winning record next season and we're giving his this season to build it" or "We expect a seeded playoff spot by year 3". Something. Something to measure against. Something for fans to see progress with. We got nothing. Just fluffy promises about style and system. And people buy it by the bucket.

And so we get fans fighting over how much time is enough time to give to a coach. The team should have resolved that. That's good ownership. That's good management. Then again, nobody can accuse MLSE of being good managers...and I don't expect them to learn their lesson as dense as they are.

But hopefully the next manager is indeed given time but goals and expectations must be set. Without benchmarks, we will be stumbling around in the dark again wondering if they're on the right path.

[DangerRed]

you guys will hang the next one...just as fast

Yes, if he starts a season 0-7 and doesn't come anywhere close to making the playoffs or redirecting the team in a positive direction, absolutely we'll hang him just as fast. As we should.

[Oldtimer]

I'd move Winter to the Academy, bring in Nicol and let De Klerk and Rongen go.

In other words you'd blow it all up and start all over again. If you look at New York, that has been their strategy all along. They have gone through a new coach every 18 months, just like TFC. You can see how well that has worked.

It's seems to be the assumption of some here that the reason why Nicol couldn't win anything of note (Superliga was a joke, and in 2007 most MLS sides were fielding their "B" squads in the US open Cup) is because of NE's cheap owner. However, if is the accepted wisdom amongst NE supporters that while Nicol can get a team so far, he can't actually bring it to the next level and win. He tried for a decade and couldn't do it. What evidence do you have that Nicol could do better under ML$E?

[trane]

^
Roogsy,

I agree. It does not add to confidence in the club. Every time I think I could not be more disilusioned, I get a bit more disilusioned. What I am still suprised at, that to time to time I feel the love for the club that I had in 2007. I would like feel it all the time, but it is hard.

[Section 117]

And you convinced yourself of this despite no playoffs for 5 maybe 6 years and an 0-7 start?

What exactly are we supposed to be happy about?

I never understood people who expect you to be happy about the sloppy pile of shit you're handed. "Be grateful! At least it's hard not runny!".

I find it amusing that the criticism of Winter includes an element of being fired "too fast". Um...16 months and 60 games is too fast? I thought we agreed that stepping into another Mo-like promise of multi-year building was not necessary? Did we not learn our lesson? Because if that's the case, bring Mo back and let him finish his 5 year plan!

Roogsy my point is at the end of the day no matter what happens there are people here that will never be happy period we could 7-0 and they would find shit to bitch about. I have never voiced my opinion on Winter and will not as I have a biased opinion. If upper management fires Winter then so be it.

Also, comparing Mo to Winter's regime is kind of stretch there was no backstabbing, under handed deals etc.. from this regime. You should know all to well about him.

When TFC went on the run in CCL where was the dissent? People come out of the woodwork when shit is going bad. I really don't give a shit who is the coach and who is on the field as the badge is more important that all of the above. I will support my team until the day I die. If i want to be a glory hound I would find a different team in this league.

[ExiledRed]

Thomas Rongen:

• MLS Cup winner (in the old days, yes, but during the same MLS 1.0 era that Nicol was doing well).
• knows the academy players
• knows the US young players
• extensive network in US soccer
• understands how to integrate the academy systems with the first team
• knows how to adapt Dutch methodology to win in a US league
• already on staff, so disruption is minimal

disadvantages: prefers to deal with youth, might not want the job.

Steve Nicole:

• MLS Cup finalist (in the MLS 1.0 era, not so well later)
• well respected in NE
• good contacts in the league
• managed to do well paired with Mariner
• achieved regular playoff runs while working for the cheapest (by far) owner in MLS. What could he do under ML$E?

disadvantages: never won MLS Cup or SS in a decade of trying (did win US open Cup in 2007). Although he uses possession systems -- they are different than what the academy are using, and would mean starting over again.


While both have very strong points, I believe that Thomas Rongen would be the best choice, should replacing Winter be necessary. It would mean not blowing up everything and starting over, which I believe moving to a very different system would entail. KC shows us that 4-3-3 can work provided that you know how to adapt it to MLS (which KC have done). I would actually just swap Winter and Rongen (Winter has academy experience) and do no other changes.

Other options not mentioned in this poll are Mariner in charge or Danny Dichio in charge. Their disadvantages are lack of first team coaching experience.

I understand you dont want Nicol, (no H and no E by the way, you always get it wrong) but thats no excuse for minimising his resume.

[Jack]

What evidence do we ever have that anyone is going to do well anywhere? Evidence suggested that Winter would be a good manager for TFC and look where we are now.

I'm not ASSuming that Nicol was limited by anything. Sometimes you don't win and you can't get over that hump in sports, despite putting together very good teams. Ask the Utah Jazz, the New York Knicks, the Portland Trailblazers...all of them were excellent, well-coached teams, but they couldn't get over the hump (well, the hump was called Michael Jordan). The Buffalo Bills had good teams and good coaches, but they couldn't nail down that Super Bowl.

Not winning it doesn't make Nicol a bad manager. People learn and grow and, presented with the challenge of turning this SS Titanic around, what makes you think he couldn't do a good job?

[Canary10]

Porter has been courted by a number of MLS teams based on his incredible work at Akron. His tenure with USMNT U-20 (holds that post while keeping his HC job at Akron) has been a bit of a disaster so far, so that has perhaps dropped his value some. I must admit it is thought provoking, he is a proponent of 4-3-3 although his attempts to implement it with U-20s kinda going about as well as it's going with TFC. So the question is, how is he able to do it at Akron and not with I'd assume are more talented nat team kids?

Yeah his national team experience hasn't been great as of yet (proud that Canada played a role in that). But his overal record as a manager is stirling and he understands what we're trying to do here.

[ryan]

I find it amusing that the criticism of Winter includes an element of being fired "too fast". Um...16 months and 60 games is too fast?

I don't think it's an accurate way to look at this. It's not as if he was brought in, as a change of voice in the locker room to motivate players differently. This is an entire club overhaul. I don't know why this needs to be repeated, or why it's expected that within 1 season and a bit we're supposed to be flying by now. He even told us not to expect playoffs last year because he and the organization understood the lengthy process this would take.


Anyone got a lead on a "one year plan" coach? Might as well queue up a few until one gets lucky.