Post game thread - tfc 2 @ rsl 3

[__wowza]

Ouch! RT @AllonthePitch: This week in #TFC optimism: This is probably the best 0-7 team the #MLS has ever seen. #TFCLive
to our credit, we played pretty well against a team that i thought were going to destroy us. cann/aceval, what can you say? if you watched the streams in the game thread all you heard about was how ecks got subbed out and they didnt understand why, someone wanna tell them we got a game in montreal this week?

EDIT: everyone collapsing on the pitch after the the goal said it all, they're as tired and heartbroken as we are. we should've had the tie.

[ExiledRed]

TFC has always been lousy and their lousiness may have caused bitterness to surface in a few fans. New fans will take their place. TFC soccer is so much more enjoyable to watch now despite the losses.

You have got to be kidding, it is NOT more enjoyable to watch. It is no longer possible to pretend that you are a more sophisticated soccer expert and can explain away every loss as an incremental improvement. It is obvious that the team is disjointed, unhappy and performing like a team that is about to go 0-8 and there are no technical skills on display that are strong enough to prevent this repeated humiliation of our badge.

[TFC USA]

Yeah I much prefer losing in stoppage time than losing 6-2. Oh fuck we've done both. And neither one of them earns you a point!

[TFC1154ever]

I think we all can agree that we need 2 STARTING CBS. Henry is good from off the bench. I would actually would like to see more of Emory but, Cann,harden,aceval....sorry just not good enough. This team can score, and i would actually would like to see this team with 2 capable CBS.

[__wowza]

You have got to be kidding, it is NOT more enjoyable to watch. It is no longer possible to pretend that you are a more sophisticated soccer expert and can explain away every loss as an incremental improvement. It is obvious that the team is disjointed, unhappy and performing like a team that is about to go 0-8 and there are no technical skills on display that are strong enough to prevent this repeated humiliation of our badge.

4-4-2 hoofball like the rest of the league it is then!!
losing isnt enjoyable for anyone to watch, but surely you can attest that even losing games can show improvement that's not reflective in points. the only thing that looked disjointed to me was our defense, but then again, it always is. i don't see how that reflects a complete lack of technical skills elsewhere on the pitch. its a pretty rash generalization. it's almost akin to saying that nothing else went right. there's a difference between 3-2 and 3-0.

[DOMIN8R]

A few thoughts....

• I liked the fan designed TFC kits. So shoot me.
• RSL fans have come a long way. I have new found respect for Salt Lake. R E S P E C T
• More than any previous year – I’m impressed with the quality of MLS (this year). I find almost every MLS game very enjoyable to watch in 2012 – largely because of the improved quality and athleticism in the league.
• Our defense still needs tweaking.
• Altitude, away, it is RSL(!) at home - I think that we still showed character. It’s not enough. But I’m still impressed.
• I am pleased that we have talent across the whole line. Not just a few starters. Today Henry, Morgan, et all, - looked like they were professional football players. I’m so happy that we don’t rely on 3-4 players to be a competitive side. The talent spread gives me hope.
• We have often play better than the score line. Today may be a good example of that.
• Winter needs a full 2 seasons before we can really pass judgement.

Open flame throwers......

Oh....and Frings. He's no SUPERHERO. So let's let him play one position well and not be all things - to all fans. 2 B I G mistakes in in 2 games. Scorn me for not being absolute in my fondness. He's good. But we can't expect a player of his age to do e v e r y t h i n g.

Also - because so many think that it only take 1 year or 16 months to make an MLS playoff contender (like NY, LA, RSL, KC, CLB, etc. sarcasm) here's my request....for the sake of argument....those who think that we deserve a coaching change every year, please speak up.

And for the record - I love that Craiger has assumed a pseudonym and thinks that no one will figure out it's Lumpy

[Beach_Red]

How soon we forget. I guess that Preki year wiped out everything that came before it. Too bad, because there were some entertaining games - and some of them were even wins.

[ag futbol]

4-4-2 hoofball like the rest of the league it is then!!
losing isnt enjoyable for anyone to watch, but surely you can attest that even losing games can show improvement that's not reflective in points. the only thing that looked disjointed to me was our defense, but then again, it always is. i don't see how that reflects a complete lack of technical skills elsewhere on the pitch. its a pretty rash generalization. it's almost akin to saying that nothing else went right. there's a difference between 3-2 and 3-0.

I hate to break it to you, but there are multiple teams in this league playing 4-3-3. In fact one of them did it today, won 3-2 and was using two of our former players.

I also think it's a little bit ridiculous to assume the end of Aron Winter means the end of total football. Someone else can pick the ball up and run with it, should that be the continued vision of this club.

[TFC USA]

At this point I don't care about the style we play. We could be Wimbledon FC for all I care.

I want WINNING soccer, which we have not been remotely close to in our entire history. Well, the closest we came we lost 5-0 in the must-win to make the playoffs against the worst team in the MLS.

[Beach_Red]

A few thoughts....

Also - because so many think that it only take 1 year or 16 months to make an MLS playoff contender (like NY, LA, RSL, KC, CLB, etc. sarcasm) here's my request....for the sake of argument....those who think that we deserve a coaching change every year, please speak up.

And for the record - I love that Craiger has assumed a pseudonym and thinks that no one will figure out it's Lumpy

Maybe you could tell us how many games with zero points earned would be enough?

[ExiledRed]

4-4-2 hoofball like the rest of the league it is then!!
losing isnt enjoyable for anyone to watch, but surely you can attest that even losing games can show improvement that's not reflective in points. the only thing that looked disjointed to me was our defense, but then again, it always is. i don't see how that reflects a complete lack of technical skills elsewhere on the pitch. its a pretty rash generalization. it's almost akin to saying that nothing else went right. there's a difference between 3-2 and 3-0.

Your first argument is redundant, since when have I called for 4-4-2 hoofball?

Basically what you're saying is that if I cant see value in the fanciful method that we are losing games, nor the highly purported technical skills that are supposedly on display, but currently unable to win games for us, I am a typical brit who's knowledge of soccer stops at kicking the ball to the big guy.

You cannot consistently improve while your record gets consistently worse, its all an illusion buddy. Technical skill is what wins games. We dont do that.

[Lumpy]

You have got to be kidding, it is NOT more enjoyable to watch. It is no longer possible to pretend that you are a more sophisticated soccer expert and can explain away every loss as an incremental improvement. It is obvious that the team is disjointed, unhappy and performing like a team that is about to go 0-8 and there are no technical skills on display that are strong enough to prevent this repeated humiliation of our badge.

Sorry but it is more enjoyable to watch. I have never said I was a soccer sophisticate unlike some others have professed to be . My sport is basketball. I guess that makes me a basketball sophisticate. You have suffered years of humiliation with TFC so what difference does a few more make.

[ExiledRed]

Maybe you could tell us how many games with zero points earned would be enough?

We actually need a poll on this.

How many straight losses are required before its evident that Winter has lost the plot?

1) 1-7
2) 8-10
3)10-15
4)15-20
5)20-30
6)Every game
7)He should be given another season even if we lose every single game

[Richard]

Sell the team MLSE! That is all.

[ExiledRed]

Sorry but it is more enjoyable to watch. I have never said I was a soccer sophisticate unlike some others have professed to be . My sport is basketball. I guess that makes me a basketball sophisticate. You have suffered years of humiliation with TFC so what difference does a few more make.

Im sorry, I dont claim to be sophisticate either, but I know good football when Im watching it, and you're practically admitting to me that you havent been watching the game long enough to hold a good debate on the subject. At the same time, you are being very prolific with your posts and practically baiting the anti-winter camp with ridiculous assertations.

A few more years of futility could be the death of this team buddy. Were not in the NBA here.

[__wowza]

Your first argument is redundant, since when have I called for 4-4-2 hoofball?

Basically what you're saying is that if I cant see value in the fanciful method that we are losing games, nor the highly purported technical skills that are supposedly on display, but currently unable to win games for us, I am a typical brit who's knowledge of soccer stops at kicking the ball to the big guy.

You cannot consistently improve while your record gets consistently worse, its all an illusion buddy. Technical skill is what wins games. We dont do that.

how is my first argument redundant?

you havent called it hoofball, but i seem to remember that up until last year most of the league was still in the 4-4-2 longball phase. in fact, it often characterized style the league and one of the reasons why parity in the league was the order of the day. it was the "go-to" formation or style of play, you could win with it, you could lose with it. i'm questioning your knowledge of soccer under the basis that a teams progression can be marked in the W-L column, that improvement must necessarily mean more wins. that's like saying we can roll out 100 broken streetcars but saying "well, transit seems to be progressing nicely! it's one hell of an illusion seeing us play so well when in reality, im actually watching a crappy team that's worse then where we were 6 years ago.

[adam1001]

Honestly, Winter should just walk off the job for the sake of his own dignity. His coaching career is essentially done.
Words cannot describe how pathetic our defense is. Not one of them was marking an RSL player on the last goal.

[Lumpy]

Im sorry, I dont claim to be sophisticate either, but I know good football when Im watching it, and you're practically admitting to me that you havent been watching the game long enough to hold a good debate on the subject. At the same time, you are being very prolific with your posts and practically baiting the anti-winter camp with ridiculous assertations.

A few more years of futility could be the death of this team buddy. Were not in the NBA here.

I have posted 23 times. You have posted 5744. I will never be able to reach that level. If I disagree with your statements please don't consider it baiting. Obviously I will never change your mind so that would not be logical. I hereby declare "I am not a soccer expert" so it is not necessary to repeat that. The team will not die life will go on. Good night.

[DOMIN8R]

Maybe you could tell us how many games with zero points earned would be enough?

So can I interpret that - if we loose 7 games at any given time, we should change our coach? Okay. That's one approach. It's one that many recent successful MLS teams have not shared. I respect your point of view. But I don't agree with it. I just can't buy into throwing out management everytime we hit a bad patch. I think that CCL, the end of our last season and the fact that we aren't loosing 5-0 like we use to makes me want to hold out a bit longer before going through wholesale change......AGAIN.

Of course, history may prove me wrong.

[ExiledRed]

how is my first argument redundant?

you havent called it hoofball, but i seem to remember that up until last year most of the league was still in the 4-4-2 longball phase. in fact, it often characterized style the league and one of the reasons why parity in the league was the order of the day. it was the "go-to" formation or style of play, you could win with it, you could lose with it. i'm questioning your knowledge of soccer under the basis that a teams progression can be marked in the W-L column, that improvement must necessarily mean more wins. that's like saying we can roll out 100 broken streetcars but saying "well, transit seems to be progressing nicely! it's one hell of an illusion seeing us play so well when in reality, im actually watching a crappy team that's worse then where we were 6 years ago.

You're first argument was an assumption that I wanted a return to 4-4-2, or that is what I believe would be the consequence of losing Winter. Its just a false premise, so its redundant.

Since you want to question my knowledge of soccer based on the fact that I believe any improvement you have seen to be illusory and unsupported by statistics or visual evidence.
I in return, and without trying to be half as aggressive, question your knowledge of soccer based on the assumption that 4-4-2 is the single alternative to what we are currently watching, and that what is currently on display is a competent development of a system based on that of Ajax's.

Im not sure I understand the streetcar analogy, 100 broken streetcars and transit is improving? that's pretty much summing up the pro-winter camp's argument in my opinion.

[ManUtd4ever]

Heartbreaking loss, and to the credit of the players, they played hard enough to earn a result tonight.

I genuinely feel bad for Winter, but it just seems like the situation is beyond redemption at this point. It's time for him and the club to part ways if TFC is to have any hope of salvaging the season and qualifying for the CCL.

It's truly remarkable that a coach could take his team to unprecedented levels of success and fultility within the span of several weeks.

[Redcoe15]

Spent the day in London. Got back to watch the match that I recorded.

This is my response to it:



That is all.

[rocker]

Im sorry, I dont claim to be sophisticate either, but I know good football when Im watching it, and you're practically admitting to me that you havent been watching the game long enough to hold a good debate on the subject. At the same time, you are being very prolific with your posts and practically baiting the anti-winter camp with ridiculous assertations.

A few more years of futility could be the death of this team buddy. Were not in the NBA here.

He's baiting people? I actually agree with him and so, it seems, do others on this board.

I believe this team plays much more "pleasing to the eye" soccer than, for example, the Preki team. That was Lumpy's main point, a point I would probably call a fact if I could go back to the archives and read all the posts complaining about how boring we looked under Preki ball.

I know the followup comment will be "yeah, but we won more under Preki." But back then, only a few people were saying "hey, Preki got us close to the playoffs." Most people were saying "glad he's gone, we need to play a more pleasing style."

[jloome]

Your first argument is redundant, since when have I called for 4-4-2 hoofball?

Basically what you're saying is that if I cant see value in the fanciful method that we are losing games, nor the highly purported technical skills that are supposedly on display, but currently unable to win games for us, I am a typical brit who's knowledge of soccer stops at kicking the ball to the big guy.

You cannot consistently improve while your record gets consistently worse, its all an illusion buddy. Technical skill is what wins games. We dont do that.

You're simply not being objective tonight. They're right. They are more fun to watch and they do play better offensively. I agree Winter doesn 't look like he can turn it around because the end result is the same. But to conflate a lack of wins into a lack of entertainment tells me you're not being objective. And before you bring up some silly argument about how long I've been watching football, I'm in my fourth decade of it on BOTH sides of the pond.

[jloome]

How soon we forget. I guess that Preki year wiped out everything that came before it. Too bad, because there were some entertaining games - and some of them were even wins.

Not many. Not enough to make too many stick out. 4-1 over KC about three seasons ago. The first win over Chicago. Other than that, most of our points for five straight seasons came from scrapping out games in which we were decidedly second best. There were significant chunks of tonight's game where we looked better offensively than they did. But we lack heart and just enough intelligence to stay in games. That's not necessarily a technical fault in any respect, ergo the style is more enjoyable. It still means we might have a manager who can't motivate and be lacking a decent enough central defence to win many games this year. But it doesn't change that the style is more enjoyable to watch.

[ExiledRed]

I have posted 23 times. You have posted 5744. I will never be able to reach that level. If I disagree with your statements please don't consider it baiting. Obviously I will never change your mind so that would not be logical. I hereby declare "I am not a soccer expert" so it is not necessary to repeat that. The team will not die life will go on. Good night.

I didnt know a polite way of saying it. You've admitted you're new to the sport and the team, but then you talk about how great it is that were losing pretty, and the marked improvement you see in a team that is underperforming its predecessors by a mile. Do you really think this team capable of a 4-0 win?

I dont think were losing pretty, I think were losing ugly and consistently at a level we have never done, and we are already fifteen months into the coach's tenure. Thats not a good sign of anything, its not a display of improvement and its not more enjoyable to watch.

[Brooker]

Bring back MoJo!

[DoubleUp]

played well in spurts but upgrades are needed(mainly in the middle) and having a dynamic "runner" as your target striker opens up alot space , if you watch other mls teams most are simply better than us in all departments.

the defenders wouldnt look so bad if they had people tackling and cutting shit out before it got really dangerous.

[ExiledRed]

You're simply not being objective tonight. They're right. They are more fun to watch and they do play better offensively. I agree Winter doesn 't look like he can turn it around because the end result is the same. But to conflate a lack of wins into a lack of entertainment tells me you're not being objective. And before you bring up some silly argument about how long I've been watching football, I'm in my fourth decade of it on BOTH sides of the pond.

Im really not questioning anybody's expertise, except Lumpy who admits inexperience and then condescends. I've always respected your opinion, but I still think that you're too technically minded to see the big picture here. You know deep down that Winter is out of his depth trying to install this system in this league, and although you are seeing improvement of some kind its never going to translate into anything substantial under this coach.

I really dont think watching players attempt something different and failing is improvement, or any more attractive than watching them fail at defensive, or even longball. The results are showing that its not working, and Winters methods arent able to take any evidence of this elusive 'system' that you are seeing, to the next level.

[Redcoe15]

Bring back MoJo!

Please tell me you're being ironic.