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Trane's suggestion would certainly be a powerful display, but I have my doubts that you'd get a lot of people willing to throw a hundred dollar shirt out like that. The economics just aren't in our favor on this, unfortunately. Make no mistake, it WOULD be noticed, though.
Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.
I'm an infrequent poster but enjoy reading this board primarily because you guys seems to be on top of TFC news before anyone else. I find myself depressed and confused reading threads like this, though. I'm sure I'll be labelled as a management plant for writing this, but I really don't get what you guys are trying to achieve with the constants threats of protest.
I've read several people in threads like this talk about how complacent supporters gets what they deserve when the team loses. I agree with this entirely when the team isn't trying. If I had an owner like Jeffrey Loria (Marlins) or Donald Sterling (Clippers), I'd be protesting and screaming bloody murder at every opportunity. Team like that (historically) lose because their owners are too cheap to invest in a winning team and quite frankly, don't try to do anything other than make money.
MLSE seems to get lumped into this because all their teams are awful. I just don't see it, though. For example:
- We couldn't attract players on a plastic pitch, so they invested in a grass pitch.
- The DP rule came into a effect and we used it to sign an exceptionally expensive (by MLS standards) DP. Although it's been a huge bust, the large majority of supporters (with some vocal exceptions) thought it was a great signing. I was really excited. Either way, MLSE tried.
- When the supporters got upset, they held town hall meetings, and I genuinely got the sense that they did their best to listen to and implement suggestions (where possible - they weren't ever going to drop their beer price, nor would any sensible team - we have to pay for Frings, Kovermans and JDG somehow).
- When we kept losing, they sacked Johnston (far too late, but still) and hired a well-respected consultant to set the team's direction. They entirely bought into his recommendations, building a coaching staff, training facility and academy system around it. We also went out and signed two more expensive DPs. Again, it's been a bust, but they tried.
- We clearly needed CBs in the off-season, so we traded for some depth players and signed two guys that they thought could be starters (Caicedo and Aceval).
In summary, we have a grass pitch, an unparelleled academy system and, I believe, the 3rd highest payroll in the league. I don't get how any of this lines up with the repeated "ML$E screwed us again and doesn't care about winning" comments. I met Tom Anselmi last year on the plane on the way down to Dallas (the 3-0 CCL win). He sat with the few supporters that came down, bought drinks us at halftime, and seemed genuinely bothered by the team's inability to make the playoffs. I've seen nothing that indicates that he's the problem.
As for the players, I've watched every game this year and, with a few exceptions, I've seen a team that put forth a good effort and lost. Sometimes they were unlucky, and sometimes they simply missed shots or screwed up on D. But, like club managment, I haven't seen a lack of effort. Quite frankly, I think we could be 4-2 if a few bounces had gone our way, but perhaps I'm fooling myself.
Either way, I don't see how protesting does anything other than: 1) demoralize players, 2) turn off the casual fan (which in turn lowers club revenue and our budget that can be spent on players) and 3) encourage short-term reactionary decisions (like the need to "start all over again" for the umpteenth time).
No one hates seeing a losing team more than me, but I'll always fault a lack of effort rather than results. As long as the team and club are giving their best effort, they'll have my support. I just don't see the point in protesting.
If people want to send a message, don't go. A mass no show is the best display. It's like a glimpse into the future if they don't turn things around. There have been too many half assed protests. Not going sends a clear message. Bags on the head is comical as much as anything. My 2 cents.
For what purpose? You think the team doesn't know that if they don't win more, they'll have more empty seats? What are you trying to teach them with this gesture that they don't already know? They are already way more empty seats than there used to be.Originally Posted by Chris Wren
As per my post above, I believe that all you do by not showing up is make it less inspiring for the players to play and for the casual fan to attend...not to mention throwing away the value of your ticket for no reason.
Actually comical might be the best course. I want to say "I love you TFC but you are killing me."
It's embarrassing to have a team doing this poorly. I'm not enraged, I'm sad and frustrated. I don't hate TFC or even the people running it, I just want it to get better. I don't want to target the players but they should get a bit of the blame, they are the ones kicking the ball around.
Protests are completely fucking ridiculous.
We are ALL dissapointed with how things have gone. . .
dont like it dont go.
Just sit on here and complain all fucking day. . .
I love football, I love all of you, thats who I truly support.
What happens on the field is almost irrelevent. . I'll be in the stands regardless.
PROTESTS ARE FUICKING RIDICULOUS.
Please for the love of GOD RPB, do not support any protesting on an official level.
we deserve butter.
NOTICE: Wager with STB: OVER 2 shots on goal in the First half wins a Pint at HT.
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Agreed...sorta. I mean, we really should have had grass from the get-go. Unfortunately, I believe it was all part of the conditions the the club made with the city to help finance the stadium. That's why we had to wait a few years before scrapping the turf for the real deal. A good argument can be made that perhaps MLSE/TFC should have went ahead and built their own stadium to suit their specific needs. Not starting out with a grass playing surface and later making the switch isn't really a good defence of the club.
The problem is that we had the opportunity to sign a DP in our first season, but didn't. We really should have at least tried to bring in a top-quality player but Mo kept pushing the bullshit that it wouldn't have fit in with his vision for the club. Perhaps most alarming was that fact that many people started to agree with him! It took almost 3 seasons before we would field a DP. Again, not really something to be all that proud off.- The DP rule came into a effect and we used it to sign an exceptionally expensive (by MLS standards) DP. Although it's been a huge bust, the large majority of supporters (with some vocal exceptions) thought it was a great signing. I was really excited. Either way, MLSE tried.
The town hall meetings are nothing new in professional sports, but I agree that some credit should be given for holding them. The problem I have with them is that while we did manage to gain some concessions from the club, for many larger issues that were brought up, the club simply was not going to budge on them no matter how many people agreed.- When the supporters got upset, they held town hall meetings, and I genuinely got the sense that they did their best to listen to and implement suggestions (where possible - they weren't ever going to drop their beer price, nor would any sensible team - we have to pay for Frings, Kovermans and JDG somehow).
But for all we know, the club received a multitude of other recommendations that they didn't enact. What if Klinsmann recommended that the club have it's own dedicated President - and that individual should be someone other than Tom Anselmi? I agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I have always had a hard time believing that Klinsmann thought this club was okay with it's current executive structure.- When we kept losing, they sacked Johnston (far too late, but still) and hired a well-respected consultant to set the team's direction. They entirely bought into his recommendations, building a coaching staff, training facility and academy system around it. We also went out and signed two more expensive DPs. Again, it's been a bust, but they tried.
I agree that we shouldn't get too hung-up over individual players who are brought in with a lot of promise but don't work out. It's just that with TFC, it seems to happen a lot more than it really should. People are frustrated because in many respects, we seem to always be one or two key players away from being playoff contenders and can never find the good combination we need.- We clearly needed CBs in the off-season, so we traded for some depth players and signed two guys that they thought could be starters (Caicedo and Aceval).
I do. For all that people say he's a great guy and genuinely wants to win, that doesn't mean he has the experience or vision to be Club President. I don't hate the guy or anything, I just think that the guy in charge needs to have significantly more experience in overseeing an MLS club. Being nice to supporters and saying all the right things doesn't make him a soccer guru. I'm sure that Tom has a place within the MLSE organization, but I'm also sure it's not as the guy in charge of TFC.In summary, we have a grass pitch, an unparelleled academy system and, I believe, the 3rd highest payroll in the league. I don't get how any of this lines up with the repeated "ML$E screwed us again and doesn't care about winning" comments. I met Tom Anselmi last year on the plane on the way down to Dallas (the 3-0 CCL win). He sat with the few supporters that came down, bought drinks us at halftime, and seemed genuinely bothered by the team's inability to make the playoffs. I've seen nothing that indicates that he's the problem.
You sure about that first part? I think this club started off energetic and full of hustle, but the last three games or so have shown a very slow, very uninspiring squad. But you're right about protesting. As myself and others have mentioned before, because there have been so many marches and demonstrations in the past that were arguable unwarranted, not a lot of people are all that interested in taking part or even willing to listen to what we have to say. I'm not entirely sure a protest would be nearly as effective as we would like, let alone if it's actually even appropriate at the moment - though there have been good arguments for this recently.As for the players, I've watched every game this year and, with a few exceptions, I've seen a team that put forth a good effort and lost. Sometimes they were unlucky, and sometimes they simply missed shots or screwed up on D. But, like club managment, I haven't seen a lack of effort. Quite frankly, I think we could be 4-2 if a few bounces had gone our way, but perhaps I'm fooling myself.
Either way, I don't see how protesting does anything other than: 1) demoralize players, 2) turn off the casual fan (which in turn lowers club revenue and our budget that can be spent on players) and 3) encourage short-term reactionary decisions (like the need to "start all over again" for the umpteenth time).
No one hates seeing a losing team more than me, but I'll always fault a lack of effort rather than results. As long as the team and club are giving their best effort, they'll have my support. I just don't see the point in protesting.
You make some good points, dmacd.
Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.
^ We do deserve butter on our toast.
Dear Steve Hunt,
Thank you for your email.
We understand from your messages that you are frustrated however our fan email system is not a medium for debating the merits of our team and the decisions that those charged with managing the teams make.
Thanks again for your email and thanks for understanding.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your Comment @ 2012-04-22 14:48:03 <<<<<<<<<<<<
Subject Category: Fan Services
Our Reds have now hit rock bottom. Interviews from the players show just how hopeless the situation is in Toronto and at BMO Field. Our supporters section RPBoys and NEE have lost faith and I can't believe how quiet they were at yesterday's game and that can't happen.
We used to have the best fans in the MLS but MLSE's inability to understand how to run a football club has definitely made us look like an easy target to be the laughing stock of the league.
I have been a SSH for the past four years. I started off in section 225 and then moved to section 224 for a couple of years and now sit in section 105. The pricing of your tickets have made me move to a section I deem affordable for now any ways. But that may change at the end of this season.
The next move I make will be to cancel my Seasons. There will be a few reasons I cancel my tickets.
1. If MLSE decide to raise tickets prices next year. If they do they will clearly show that they do not care one bit about fan support and that us fans are not their top priority.
2. They need to clean house when it comes to top management of this team. The President of TFC, Tom Aselmi my apologies on the spelling, clearly is in over his head when it comes to running a sports franchise. That also goes the same for Paul Bierne who tries to be a figure head for the organization. I have nothing against them however they do not know anything about football and truly do not connect with the real TFC fan.
3. TFC need to turn this season around for me to consider investing not only my money but my time during the 6 months TFC plays during the season.
This whole situation started last season when MLSE egos got in the way of doing the right thing for Dwayne Derosario. Pay him what he was worth. But no you had to pay him a lesson by send him packing. Not only did he shoot out the lights last year for DC United he showed class leaving town. Now we are stuck with the DP player that is sitting on the bench most of the time or if not that then injured. You really made a mistake in sending Dero packing. How we could use him today. He will be here May 5th to dismantle our weak back line.
There is no incentive for the SSH holder to come to BMO anymore. Overpriced beer + food, you should be ashamed of yourselves, sub standard product on the field.
Why do you not book a rock & roll act for after one of the games to entertain us. There is lots TFC could do for the fan, you just have to think. Free giveaways to all fans, t-shirts, beer coolies, anything. Why is MLSE so cheap.
I can sum up my experience to date as this.
my season seats = $795.00
my common sense not to pay for Leaf tickets = $0.00
my common sense not to pay for Raptor tickets = $0.00
The ability to send this email to TFC and MLSE - PRICELESS.
Jeremy Roenick's rant to the NHL years ago, wake up NHL sums it up perfectly.
That's my message to MLSE (Asemli & Bierne) and how they treat their SSH, WAKE UP MLSE / TFC, WAKE UP.
Kind Regards,
Steve Hunt,
SSH - Section 105, Row 22, Seats 19& 20.
"We understand from your messages that you are frustrated however our fan email system is not a medium for debating the merits of our team and the decisions that those charged with managing the teams make.
Thanks again for your email and thanks for understanding."
If they could go ahead and provide that medium then, that would be super. Though I suppose they'll stick with the tried and tested method of: "over charge, under deliver and increasingly alienate your supporters".
I want to clarify. I am not suggesting a big protest, I'm saying the message gets lost sometimes. I had fun, somehow, on Saturday despite the loss. My point was that if sending a message of frustration was the goal the strongest message that can be sent is a mass no show. If it were to happen I would hope the players would be rattled, not worried about their hurt feelings. My feelings have been crushed and danced on by this team for 5 plus seasons.
dont mean to brag
dont mean to boast
but we desrve butter on our Breakfast toast!
If they lose the next home game. . . so be it.
But if they fail to SCORE in the next home game.
I'm throwing butter on the field.
Last edited by Technorgasm; 04-27-2012 at 03:02 PM.
NOTICE: Wager with STB: OVER 2 shots on goal in the First half wins a Pint at HT.
^ Well they defend like they are running on butter.
this is what it is for me.
i've worn these colours in combat. i love this team so much that i got their crest put onto my body. but my god, put the effort in and i will show my love. it's just frustrating to see how it is.
I'm going to throw an old Liverpool top on the field! That should send a msg to the FO , EAT IT!
Last edited by Bars92; 04-27-2012 at 07:26 PM.
I don't know who threw the scarf last week but a LOT of people noticed it and said 'whoa'
It is a big deal IMO, just shy of shitting on the pitch.
Maybe I am overdramatizing it but I don't know if I am there yet...
A lit jersey would be alright though.
A lot of good ideas in this thread but one sticks out the most for me and it's this one here. To me, this kind of protest would deliver since it can be noticed not only at the stadium, but TV as well. As we all know, the RPB corner can be seen everytime the camera goes to a bird's eye view and especially on corner kicks. Such a display should certainly serve notice to FO/management that we are no longer willing to put up with this mess.
This is a great idea
You raise a lot of interesting points. I tend to think when a sports organisation organises 'townhalls' they have lost the plot. If you have to go your customers to ask how to improve a product to me it suggests you have no plan or vision or understanding of the business you are in. Imagine Steve jobs going online saying ... i make computers but hey guys what would you like them to be like. Its nonsense. As far as Winter goes he is just the worst high turnover manager we have had. One of the big problems here is that practically everyone has played for us. His turnover of players is off the scale. He turns over his own players FFS. Where MLSE come in is that they have let it go because they have no understanding of how football works. We had a half decent team the NYRB meltdown season. Who is left? Frei and JDG as 1st team players? We had something to work with. Now what have we got? A team full of strangers. MLSE are so clued out that they can't see when that kind of player turnover is detrimental to the club. A 5 year old kid could tell you its better to play a pro sport like football on grass so getting grass isn't not exactly a 'knock it out of the park' business plan. As far as 4-2 if bounces had gone the right way.... that's football. It goes both ways. We could have easily lost to LA and Santos at home. We are consistently on the wrong end of that. But you can't make an arguement out of coulda shoulda. We lost those league games. When we might have beat Chicago they actually did beat us and hit the post. They did it on half the attacking chances and they knew our weaknesses. Based on what i have seen we are the team that needs to knock it out of the park just to get a draw these days. and we are at this stage in part because of a lack of understanding of what is required to compete and win by MLSE. As for effort ... how do you measure it ? You can't really. Is JDg jogging back while while the opposing team heads goalward effort ? Is Danny K all teeth gnashing kicking the goalpost effort ? Or is JDG running back effort and Danny K getting some exercise effort. Everyone has a different opinion on what effort actually is. But you can't measure it.
Even one shirt makes a significant symbolic impact. You just need to make sure the jersey gets far enough on to the pitch to be noticed.
Frankly I love almost every idea I have read. So long as your actions are not dangerous or egregiously offensive, I say go nuts!
Technotardasm will grab it before it hits the pitch.
Depressed and confused huh? Join the club.
As we drift into discussions from time to time on how we might express our displeasure with the current situation, most of us know, in our heart of hearts, that Elvis left the building in the fall of 2008. Those first two years were very, very special and unique for those involved. Since 2008, it has become very apparent that the bean counters are in charge of a bureaucracy that have had no idea how to run a football club, select a good management team, compile and manage and mentor a good group of soccer players, or nurture an incredible fan base that was like no other in North America.
For me, it is the last item that is unforgivable. That is what has broken the back of the supporters of this club. Anybody with a marketing course in high school could do a decent job of managing the TFC fan base. I would be embarrassed to work for Toronto FC marketing department, given that their customer relations are so poor - I would definitely end up being depressed and confused!
Friendly games against no name teams (charged to season ticket holders at double price), marlie ransom packs, relentless price hikes when the team has never performed, $150-$300 Real Madrid tickets when Seattle got Barcelona for free... white? yes white season ticket holder scarves in year five, cut-rate tickets on travelzoo... did I mention beer prices? These are just a few of many, many examples that have contributed to the utter shredding of the relationship that fans wanted to have with this club. Yes fans and supporters wanted a real, honest to goodness relationship with the club, but ML$E has demonstrated at every turn that all they wanted was a financial relationship. SHOW ME THE MONEY! They are incapable of developing a meaningful relationship with fans and supporters - we are dealing with a sociopath. Now that I say that, I really wonder what it is like in the TFC locker room...??
Back to your original question - "what you guys are trying to achieve with the constants threats of protest"
Given the legion number of indignities done to the fans and supporters alike, it boils down to Dignity and Respect. This city opened up their hearts to this football club in 2007 + 2008 - they clearly signalled on all fronts that they wanted a relationship. Instead, ML$E has stomped on our foot, spit in our face, gave everyone a double face slap and to add insult to injury they stole our wallet! (that is without talking about the product on the field, player mismanagement nor all the other backroom shenanigans!!!) Until this indignity done to fans has been truly addressed and the relationship mended, this team will never be as great as it could be. A great relationship with your support base can make you wildly successful financially when the product on the field is great, and that relationship, if nurtured, can reap financial rewards when the product on the field is suffering.
Those who still follow and care about this team are currently in a hopeless situation beyond our control - protest is one of the few avenues still open. Protest have been known to topple governments, change corporate policy etc... Experience of the last 3-4 years suggests protest may have been (at best) mildly effective with TFC, but with the downward spiral this team is in, I am not sure at this time, pointing out the obvious will have any effect. It might us feel better tho...
For sure they'd collect them and turn it into something profitable.
Maybe we'd see an auction for "Fan Worn" jerseys.
Or get an "authentic" jersey in our season ticket package next year... mustard stains and all.
I get what you are saying but maybe another analogy would work. The most "innovative" companies tend to look at how their users want to use their product and then adapt to make it possible.
Apple nearly disappeared when it forced users to buy its own printers and other hardware based on the belief that it's operating system/platform was superior to anything the Windows world had to offer (and maybe it was). But Mr Gates laughed all the way to the bank by making his code available for a multiple hardware platforms and manufactuers and consumers took to it like glue.
Apple also nearly screwed up by intially trying to control App development for their iPad/iPhone applications. The phone has a "cool" interface and some solid programming behind it but the wide availability of the apps are what sells it. Again, users make Apple what it is today and most innovation comes from Apple simply creating the platform and then supporting users in how they want to use it.
Not sure why you are using Apple. The company is the complete opposite of what you are saying.
You should read the book on Steve Jobs. The guy pretty much did whatever the fuck he wanted and essentially told the consumer what it wanted. He NEVER listened to his customer.
I worked for Apple for many years. Pretty sure I am familiar with Jobs' personality and the culture that almost sent them to bankruptcy along with the user led resurgence.
If you want to know what works and gets attention just ask anyone who didn't buy seats this year. Or who dropped season's and went down to partials. And lastly those who dropped partials and bought nothing.
Lemme tell ya, the personal attention and service I've recieved through ticket rep phonecalls has been amazing. Used my name, called me a valued customer, blah blah blah. They even call back just to check up on you throughout the season!
The only thing that gets their attention is rear ends in seats. Otherwise it's a lot of fuss about nothing. They didn't freeze prices cause we wore green, they could care less about the "day of silence" because the people were still in the stadium.
Last edited by cmonyoureds; 04-28-2012 at 08:28 AM.
NOTICE: Wager with STB: OVER 2 shots on goal in the First half wins a Pint at HT.
Which makes the fact that you are wrong about Apple's customer service even more mind boggling.
Apple is known for doing it their own way, in spite of what customers want.
Were you around the Mo years? Because player turnover was MUCH worse then.
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