"Your last point about local players is baffling."
We are promoting academy players who were born in Canada and played their football in Toronto, unlike the other Canadian teams who don't give Canadian players a sniff. I'm just suggesting extending that philosopy to managers and hiring a Canadian coach to run the team.
a) This current regime has so far treated our local players like crap.Originally Posted by Canary10
b) The academy is losing its best talent which was probably not destined for us anyway.
c) If there is a canadian coach who can win this league and start taking names from the get go without a ten year 'easing in' period, Im all for it.
^ Why do you treat every comment like it's a fight? I said nothing about how academy players are treated, where they are going, etc. Only that we have more Canadian players and more academy players than all other MLS teams, particulalry the other so-called Canadian teams who have done nothing to support Canadian footaballers. Which is absolutely true. And that we extend that to coaching. There are quite a few Canadian coaches looking for a chance and who can probably be very good if given the chance. Don't know why that needs to provoke an argument about where some academy players are ending up playing.
Here's an interesting thought: FCE has hired TWO Dutch coaches and while they aren't as famous as Winter ... they were both more qualified!
I'd look at any of the following for head coaches: Colin Clark, Sasho Cirovski, Nicol, Steve Morrow, Richie Williams...
I blame Winter 100% for this loss and this whole season. What I'm seeing out there are players that are decent enough to win some games but not doing that because we are playing stupid tactics and having odd lineup choices. I'm sick of it. Fire him now and give these players a chance to show what they can do when they are playing a normal MLS style game.
^
basically, this is what is happening: Winter is doing his job like he would play FIFA '12 or FIFA Manager. Let's see if this works, puts it out there.
He has no real world clue.
And I wish everyone would stop repeating this nonsense praise of the Ajax system and philosophy. It hasn't mattered or been relevant outside of the Netherlands in a long time. Football needs tactics, not self-fancying arrogance.
Winter thinks we are idiots! He said after the game as you all know, “I think if you compare it with last season we have made a very huge progression,” “I think we are on the right track.”
2011 (first 6 regular games) = 1-2-3 = 6 points GF 6 GA 9 = -3
2012 (first 6 regular games) = 0-6-0 = 0 points GF 4 GA 13 = -9
This guy makes absolutely no sense, he is delusional!
Last edited by asterix606; 04-22-2012 at 12:47 PM.
I think the problem is very definitely with Winter.
He is faced, in MLS, a highly aggressive league, where "heart" is valued more than skill.
He knows one way to play, and doesn't have the players to do it, because they don't exist in North America.
The salary cap does not allow TFC to just go and get the players he needs.
Winter looks to be incapable of coming up with a system that will suit the players he has got, and get the most out of them as he builds towards his ideal team.
I think that this is where Nichol-Mariner are ideal. Tactically, Nichol is excellent, but is not that good thinking strategically. Mariner is the opposite. Neither alone is particularly good at everything, but together they make a very good team. Further, they respect each other and I think they'd jump at the chance to work together again.
Ideally, what TFC should have done is to get Nichol and Mariner looking after the first team and having Winter set up the academy. This, I think, would have worked to everyones strengths.
O, Maple Leaf around the world, You speak as you rise high above,
Of courage, peace and quiet strength, Of the Canada that I love.
Remind us all, our union bound by ties we cannot sever,
Bright flag revered on every ground, The Maple Leaf forever
The difference is Winter isn't talking about results where as all the media and people acting as you are, are talking about solely results. His english isn't good enough to make it clear to the media, but when he's saying "we're making progress" it's in how they are playing in their form and style, not in what the final score is.
I think in what we saw yesterday, the link up between players, short passes, leaving the ball in space to shoot...there was very good rhythm and flow, players are seeing more options and making plays for them. In the 2nd half especially, we dominated the play. We were ahead in possession, shots, corners, crosses...etc. Had Frings and Johnson scored their chances and we won 4-3, would you be crediting his system for generating these chances? Same for the Chivas game? There was enough chances to win that game, but the players didn't execute and Winter is being blamed. Is Frings gaff to start the game Winter's fault too? Seems like any mistake made by a player is his fault.
Now...we have improved in this system, we're doing things now that we weren't doing last season when this all started, that is fact. He's entirely correct when he says we've made a huge progression with this system. However, saying we are on the right track is up in the air because this system needs to produce results to be considered right. He believes the results will come as we further along within the system he's implemented, we shall see, I'm not writing it off yet.
To summarize, on the point of progression and of what he's comparing to, he's entirely correct and you simply don't understand what he's talking about. He's not talking about results. Yes results matter and we need them, but that's not what he was talking about.
^ I was about to point out he is not talking about results but style of play and form.
I was saying this 12 months ago.
Results are the ultimate measure of progress. If you're not improving your statistics, most importantly your position on the table, then the progress is superficial.
Yes, you are right. I dont know what Im talking about!
I guess results dont matter!
Sorry! I need results and points!
Last edited by asterix606; 04-22-2012 at 01:51 PM.
This talk about style, play and form is all pontification.
" We have a 0-6 record, but its better than when we were winning because two players who might not be here in a month linked up and completed an attractive play about the thirty fourth minute, and that told me that we're going to be just like Ajax within the year. "
"We have more rythym and fluidity" "we are more cohesive as a unit" "We look more like a team than ever"
Its all fucking nonsense!!!!!!!!!! Its delusionary!
How about we get eleven performing artists to do some really cool stuff in the middle of the pitch for ninety minutes? We wont win that way either, but it will be 'entertaining' and 'cultured.'
In my opinion, TFC fans have been sold a bill of goods with this "attractive style" of soccer. Sports is about results. It's about who is still standing at the end and people have lost sight of that. If we play the prettiest football but wind up in the cellar of the league each year, what good does pretty football do us? The case that needs to be made is that the football being employed is effective and will render results both in the short-term and in the long-term. We know that Winter's style, tactics, etc. have not produced in the short-term. How do we know that it will then produce in the long-term and when will that be? If it takes 10 years to make us Barcelona of MLS (and that is a HUGE "if"), but we've resided in the basement of the league the entire team, who will be left to watch this magical transformation and can anyone assure me it will actually happen?
yes, but we don't credit for guesswork. People have to get the rope to hang themselves first, or it's just speculation. Even people who gave him a chance said he might turn out to have the same problems as Ruud Gullit in L.A., which seems to be what is happening.
Except it's not nonsense. It's not delusion. They are more entertaining to watch. If you can't see that, there's something wrong with you, not him.
Having said that, every argument I'm hearing now about why he won't be able to turn it around rings true to me. He hasn't gotten a stud CB; he hasn't solved the midfield issue; he hasn't shown tactical acumen in adjusting game-by-game.
Again, even THAT doesn't mean he'll ultimately fail, just that there's now an actual reason to have doubt he's the right guy. Entertaining to watch is only half the equation; they have to be competitive, and they're not.
Agreed, am I the only one who thought Chicago looked mostly disinterested in playing TFC? Credit that for us looking so "great".
They didn't do a lot of the stuff most teams try against TFC to make them ineffective. With the exception of the goal, they didn't pressure up top with their speed, they didn't try to smash the shit out of our weak midfield, and they gave our wingers space to operate. That being said, it was all done with the purpose of hitting us on the counter attack, which worked anyway.
that it right there! fire Winter, hire Cirque du Soleil!
You know I have a high opinion of your general contribution here, right? With that said .... are you kidding me? What are you talking about?
There was a long list of indicators early on that this wasn't working. By April 2011 Winter's arrogance/communication problems were obvious, we were off to a bad start in the league (not this bad, but not good), we had the Cann stuff (playing him at LB, the POW press conference), several "we need better players" press conferences (I defy you to find another manager that ever does that, he's now done it 15 times) ....and there were other things I just can't remember now.
It's true we were screwed, we had to let this slow motion train wreck play out. (Still have to imho, I would still vote no to firing him today.) But let's tell it like it is/was - there have been many obvious problems from the very start.
What did we do to deserve damn near the worst team in all of world football? Has anyone, in any league, in any country, been this bad since we were formed?
Last edited by ensco; 04-22-2012 at 02:01 PM.
"There are some people who might have better technique than me, and some may be fitter than me, but the main thing is tactics. With most players, tactics are missing. You can divide tactics into insight, trust, and daring." - Johan Cruyff
I wasn't guessing. I was outright stating the deficiencies I had seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears. I threw up all kinds of explanations, statistics, reasonings and all were dismissed. And I was fine with giving people the amount of time to see for themselves, what I was never fine with was limitless rope and undefined expectations because all you get is a lack of accountability.
I understood people don't have access to the information that I had, but I didn't understand why people couldn't step up and recognize that you don't just blindly give someone the keys to the car without a certain amount of expectations as to how he is going to use it.
Most importantly the historically bad start to the season. Let's not forget TFC is now the sole owner of the all-time accumulated worst goal differential among all teams in MLS history and with our current start, that record is in no danger of falling on someone else.
When we started with Winter, there were TWO teams ahead of us in that particular record.
This reminds me so much of the Canadian movie business - sure, we never get any results at the box office, but look how many awards we won at the Bulgarian Film Festival!!!
LOL!
blame winter? i'm sure the players are clearly not good enough. to turn over a 0-1 deficit into a 2-1 advantage showed that maybe this team can get it together... but to concede an equalizer two minutes later speaks volumes. then the lads promptly let in a soft goal where the centre back(s) and the goalie didn't communicate to who would get the ball is just sad.
Nobody was guessing, the alarm bells went off almost immediately and they never stopped ringing.
lets go through what happened last year shall we
- In the first ten games, he was openly experimenting on the pitch stubbornly trying to force his 'system' while rival MLS teams ran riot over us.
- It was obvious he knew nothing about a single opposition team. while they were adapting to our 4-3-3. Our 4-3-3 was not adapting to them.
- Regularly all substitutes were used within fifty minutes, leaving injured players limping on the pitch.
- The public humiliation of Adrian Cann should have horrified all supporters. Coaches should absorb flak from the players not expose them to it.
- He arrogantly dismissed the media as uneducated.
- The Attakora situation didnt seem cool either, I think Roogs covered DeRo.
- He forced players out of position in competetive matches, as DISCIPLINE.
- He started cutting our better players because they couldnt change position, and failed to replace them.
-Jacob Petersen's remarks, Alan Gordon's remarks were inline with Gargan's, I believed them at the time too.
In addition, there was no basis for faith or giving him a chance because he had no experience or track record to point to.
I called for the axe about this time last year and it wasnt guesswork, Winter's inadequacy was just as obvious then as it is now.
I made all these points at the time, without calling any individual on here names - but I still got called a troll and then got banned from the board.
The truth always gets persecuted before its accepted as fact, though.
This squad is lacking talent in every position.
Chicago have got 3 players that are way above any quality we have and 2 forwards with real speed.
We'll be lucky to win 4 games all season.
In any other town, Winter would have been gone by now. Having said that I think any other coach can't/won't do any better. This is typical TO sports team mentality. It starts from the top with ownership
I'm not saying it was a blind choice, I'm saying you can't call someone a failure until they've actually failed. And life isn't usually that black and white, even. In fact, I could credit most of the problems he faces to the environment he's come into and the people he works with, quite easily. .... it's his lack of tactical adaption or willingness to recognize it publicly that is driving me nuts.
Ensco, EVERYONE raised the potential that he might fail. That's not the same as preaching that he WILL for six months, and it doesn't validate every fear about his management or every argument as to why it's not working.
What can't be explained away are the elements that we know, for a fact, are directly under his control. And most of those could in no way be fairly evaluated until he'd had a chance to actually coach the team -- lineup choices, tactical choices, handling of the media. And these are things that no one can honestly say they could pre-evaluate.
Well then, you could say that about everyone who came before him, too. It's pretty much exactly the same environment and organization it was on day one.
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