Saturday, April 21, Chicago @ TFC 3:30 PM post-game rant

[jloome]

The truth always gets persecuted before its accepted as fact, though.

The people who moderate perception of truth first aren't usually doing it for the right reasons. That's ALSO true of human behavior, which is why it takes longer for the group to adapt -- they want proof before they condemn something, not general indications. And these ARE general indications. The U.S. national team is going through the same problems trying to implement the same system. Until it's determined that American players can't be tactically brought up to the quality to make it work, they'll probably keep doing it.

And that's the problem -- as Beaches pointed out from day one -- the initial assumption by Klinsmann that the best way to accelerate the growth of American soccer is to make it identical to the most "attractive" form, rather than the one that best suits the combination of tactical advancements and the existing limitations on youth development.

As Ensco said, however, "It's true we were screwed, we had to let this slow motion train wreck play out." Some of us wanted that to play out with a maximum of optimism and a minimum of bitching and whining. Now that he's basically proven unable to right the ship and deal with MLSE's bullshit, the position will continue to moderate.

[Kilgore Trout]

This reminds me so much of the Canadian movie business - sure, we never get any results at the box office, but look how many awards we won at the Bulgarian Film Festival!!!

That's quite a bit different. Forget big attempts like Passchendaele; people like Egoyan, McDonald, etc. have carved out niche success. Moreover, a lot of Canadian films are genuinely quality.

This 'progress' in TFC is not quality football. Quality football means you have points. Whereas you can make an awful direct to video ripoff flick and turn a significant profit. You can make a very bad film by anyone's standards (eg. the scourge of Date Movie, Epic Movie, Meet the Spartans etc. a while ago) and make a profit.

There is only the illusion of genuine quality here. TFC might play with more flair now than under Preki but it is not a better football club. Whereas I'm pretty sure we can agree that The Sweet Hereafter is a better film than Epic Movie.

[Beach_Red]

I don't know, I've never seen Epic Movie, but The Sweet Hereafter is definitely the illusion of quality - based on a quality novel, but a very poor movie. Maybe too ambitious as grief is incredibly difficult to make a visual story out of. Maybe like the style TFC want to play is too ambitious, I don't know.

But in both cases, TFC and any Egoyan movie you want to name, we can agree that in the only measureable ways they fail and any success is claimed in ways that can't be measured; "progress" and "art."

I'm sticking with the analogy .

[ryan]

Results are the ultimate measure of progress. If you're not improving your statistics, most importantly your position on the table, then the progress is superficial.

I guess so. If we play shit football and luck into some results, that's better for you? I guess it must be. I can't see that making for consistent success, but guys are so desperate for success in this town they just want the shortest route there.

I'd prefer we have a form and style of higher quality than what you get in MLS's physical roughshod ways. MLS is fucking BORING, anyone who watches any other league in the world knows the overall quality of the MLS and the way most clubs play is piss in comparison. I don't think many MLS clubs are going to build players beyond the journeymen that they are with the way that they play the game. How to develop high quality skill playing a game that just abuses underskilled players and takes advantage of mistake? Rather than playing in a free flowing fluid manner that demands higher level of skill and execution?

I think we'll also be a more attractive club to European/skill players if we continue on a path of playing a more skillful form of football. Just happens we don't have a roster that was well suited but we're working through that. If you look at our roster, it was tore up and rebuild just last summer, they haven't even been together a year as a group and I didn't believe this transformation into the club Winter is pushing us to be, would happen this fast. Apparently the rest of you do, that's fine I guess.

From a CMNT perspective, we're going to give our developing domestic players a chance to reach higher potentials, than if TFC plays like just another MLS club, playing football that just doesn't compete with the rest of the world. We see it in the CCL when Mexican clubs just trounce our MLS teams. We need to play more like that, none of this physical retarded ass monkey shit football that's crammed down our throats by Garber. Eventually, when we grow and execute higher, we'll make this physical garbage look like shit, like Santos did to us and Seattle. That's what the club believes and I believe it too.

Perhaps I have more patience than most. Perhaps I'm not as desperate to win because I don't really support any other Toronto sports teams. I dunno, but I think there's a strong lack of deep breaths and looking at the whole situation. Does it not take years of player development to make players play in total sync, demonstrating high skill and total understanding of the entire form? Again, most of this roster has been together less than a calendar fucking year! Players who have shown trouble making the simplest of fucking plays at times! Ok...


Yes we have no points, but lets not pretend we haven't been inches away from having an entirely different record either. How many times has Johnson "just missed" alone? So had he buried all his chances we'd all be satisfied and everything is working? A matter of inches has nothing to do with Winter, but it is the difference in about 6-7pts.



Anyways, continue with your "i'm angry and want wins now ranting", then perhaps we can blow it up and we'll give the next coach/roster a year before we tear their heads off and carry on with threads like these.

[Code Red]

Just when you thought things couldn't get any worse.

Well, at least there's the CCL campaign... whoopee doo.

[Kilgore Trout]

I don't know, I've never seen Epic Movie, but The Sweet Hereafter is definitely the illusion of quality - based on a quality novel, but a very poor movie. Maybe too ambitious as grief is incredibly difficult to make a visual story out of. Maybe like the style TFC want to play is too ambitious, I don't know.

But in both cases, TFC and any Egoyan movie you want to name, we can agree that in the only measureable ways they fail and any success is claimed in ways that can't be measured; "progress" and "art."

I'm sticking with the analogy .

the problem with the analogy is that there is no way to measure the quality of a film. If cash=quality, then TFC and many other consistently terrible teams are quality because they are profitable? There's no 'points' in film. Canadian movies win awards, but TFC won't win awards unless they win games. In either case, the box office draw is irrelevant. If TFC had few fans but were winning the league (it's conceivable), they would still be a good football club. And would win awards.

Even if you didn't like them.

[jloome]

Well then, you could say that about everyone who came before him, too. It's pretty much exactly the same environment and organization it was on day one.

I'd certainly say it of John Carver and Chris Cummins, who both seemed like pretty sharp coaches to me. I think most of Carver's "behavior" was blown out of proportion and really a result of having to deal with Mo, who is a snake.

But yeah, with respect to "righting the ship", they'll keep hiring less-than-ideal people with lower-than-average chances of success, because the same people in MLSE hire our coaches.

[Kilgore Trout]

I guess so. If we play shit football and luck into some results, that's better for you?
.

It's not about 'shit football' and 'good football.' It's that this endeavour is based on aesthetics.

Teams who play long ball or rely on physicality, tightness, and finishing can still be good football teams because they win. They don't 'luck into wins,' they win because they play that style well. It may be ugly, but it'll work.

[Beach_Red]

I'd certainly say it of John Carver and Chris Cummins, who both seemed like pretty sharp coaches to me. I think most of Carver's "behavior" was blown out of proportion and really a result of having to deal with Mo, who is a snake.

But yeah, with respect to "righting the ship", they'll keep hiring less-than-ideal people with lower-than-average chances of success, because the same people in MLSE hire our coaches.

Mo was a puppet who was played by the same guys who are stull running this show. Winter will have just as tough a time putting together his own team as evyone who came before him, including Mo. I realize his reputation has caused people to credit Mo with all kinds of powers, but he was just a pawn out of his depth flailing desperately to hang on.

Winter is in the same position, he's just got a different accent and a lot more arrogance. And one less MLS Cup.

[Roogsy]

I guess so. If we play shit football and luck into some results, that's better for you? I guess it must be. I can't see that making for consistent success, but guys are so desperate for success in this town they just want the shortest route there.

I'd prefer we have a form and style of higher quality than what you get in MLS's physical roughshod ways. MLS is fucking BORING, anyone who watches any other league in the world knows the overall quality of the MLS and the way most clubs play is piss in comparison. I don't think many MLS clubs are going to build players beyond the journeymen that they are with the way that they play the game. How to develop high quality skill playing a game that just abuses underskilled players and takes advantage of mistake? Rather than playing in a free flowing fluid manner that demands higher level of skill and execution?

I think we'll also be a more attractive club to European/skill players if we continue on a path of playing a more skillful form of football. Just happens we don't have a roster that was well suited but we're working through that. If you look at our roster, it was tore up and rebuild just last summer, they haven't even been together a year as a group and I didn't believe this transformation into the club Winter is pushing us to be, would happen this fast. Apparently the rest of you do, that's fine I guess.

From a CMNT perspective, we're going to give our developing domestic players a chance to reach higher potentials, than if TFC plays like just another MLS club, playing football that just doesn't compete with the rest of the world. We see it in the CCL when Mexican clubs just trounce our MLS teams. We need to play more like that, none of this physical retarded ass monkey shit football that's crammed down our throats by Garber. Eventually, when we grow and execute higher, we'll make this physical garbage look like shit, like Santos did to us and Seattle. That's what the club believes and I believe it too.

Perhaps I have more patience than most. Perhaps I'm not as desperate to win because I don't really support any other Toronto sports teams. I dunno, but I think there's a strong lack of deep breaths and looking at the whole situation. Does it not take years of player development to make players play in total sync, demonstrating high skill and total understanding of the entire form? Again, most of this roster has been together less than a calendar fucking year! Players who have shown trouble making the simplest of fucking plays at times! Ok...


Yes we have no points, but lets not pretend we haven't been inches away from having an entirely different record either. How many times has Johnson "just missed" alone? So had he buried all his chances we'd all be satisfied and everything is working? A matter of inches has nothing to do with Winter, but it is the difference in about 6-7pts.



Anyways, continue with your "i'm angry and want wins now ranting", then perhaps we can blow it up and we'll give the next coach/roster a year before we tear their heads off and carry on with threads like these.

Even if your vision of a better future for TFC did need this scenic route, what evidence is there that Winter is the guy to do it? And if that is his goal, shouldn't he then be in the Technical Director or Academy head as opposed to the guy charged with getting results from the first team?

If he can't work with players on the first team, what makes us think that he can develop the players in the reserves or the academy? We're no Ajax. We're not getting some of the best kids in Europe to train at TFC. We're lucky if we get the best kids in Toronto.

I continue to find it interesting that so many have forgiven Winter's extremely poor record on some hope that whatever he is screwing up with the first team is mitigated by the glorious results he will be getting in the long-term. Does Arena put his Academy and youth development ahead of Galaxy first team results? Does Schmid do that in Seattle? Does Sir Alex do that in Manchester or Pep do that in Barcelona? What exactly is our goal here? First team success or to produce talent that may or may not ever play for TFC???

Winter didn't build Ajax into the football factory it is. He maintained it for a while and then left under whatever circumstances he did. Their success is hardly attributable to Winter and so I have to ask why is it we think a guy who did not build Ajax should come here and build our team, let alone from a position of first team coach as opposed to a position where influencing the style and direction isn't inhibited by the very real demands of sports, which is short term results? I mean, I am truly confused how those of us demanding short-term results can be cast in a bad light. That is a fundamental aspect of a sports team! If behind the scenes a team puts in a place a system that generates longer-term results, that's great! But first and foremost it's about getting wins now!

If and when a new coach comes in, I will be making the same demands of him that I did Winter. Fix this team now and get us on track. Then fiddle with the youth and the system to ensure longer-term success. But if this first team does not get it's act together and quick, there are much worse dangers facing our long-term development than the damage of simply changing a coach.

[Beach_Red]

the problem with the analogy is that there is no way to measure the quality of a film. If cash=quality, then TFC and many other consistently terrible teams are quality because they are profitable? There's no 'points' in film. Canadian movies win awards, but TFC won't win awards unless they win games. In either case, the box office draw is irrelevant. If TFC had few fans but were winning the league (it's conceivable), they would still be a good football club. And would win awards.

Even if you didn't like them.

The box office is important if you've been in line behind Egoyan for government funding for years and not getting any because there's no measureable criteria for decision making, otherwise I agree with you .

[ensco]

I don't know, I've never seen Epic Movie, but The Sweet Hereafter is definitely the illusion of quality - based on a quality novel, but a very poor movie. Maybe too ambitious as grief is incredibly difficult to make a visual story out of. Maybe like the style TFC want to play is too ambitious, I don't know.

But in both cases, TFC and any Egoyan movie you want to name, we can agree that in the only measureable ways they fail and any success is claimed in ways that can't be measured; "progress" and "art."

I'm sticking with the analogy .

Never mess with a guy in his space. Beach Red gets final say on movie analogies.

I work in venture capital. One thing we say often is that "good enough, and cheap, beats perfection, every time". I have always thought about that when I think about Winter and all the hosannas for the 4-3-3 philosophy and the Academy.

[ensco]

Ensco, EVERYONE raised the potential that he might fail. That's not the same as preaching that he WILL for six months, and it doesn't validate every fear about his management or every argument as to why it's not working.

No. He was failing right away. The way I remember it, most people acknowledged thta, but they just felt it was too soon to do something about it, especially given our history of turmoil. What nobody could figure out (or can now) is how to fix it.

We are in perdition. No two ways about it.

[adam1001]

Atleast Carver actually gave a crap. I would much rather have a passionate guy running the team, than stone-faced Winter who quietly sits on the bench and watches his team get destroyed week in, week out. I still can't believe he had the the balls to say we're making progress with the record we have.

I'd certainly say it of John Carver and Chris Cummins, who both seemed like pretty sharp coaches to me. I think most of Carver's "behavior" was blown out of proportion and really a result of having to deal with Mo, who is a snake.

But yeah, with respect to "righting the ship", they'll keep hiring less-than-ideal people with lower-than-average chances of success, because the same people in MLSE hire our coaches.

[DangerRed]

I guess so. If we play shit football and luck into some results, that's better for you? I guess it must be...

Anyways, continue with your "i'm angry and want wins now ranting", then perhaps we can blow it up and we'll give the next coach/roster a year before we tear their heads off and carry on with threads like these.

Have you not ever paused and thought why it is possible for clubs everywhere all over the world, sometimes without changing a single player, to turn their fortunes conclusively around in a short period of time? Months, sometimes weeks? Why, you only have to look elsewhere in the MLS. But no, you'll say, I'm ignoring the fact that these were special, one-off circumstances. The coach had MLS experience. The roster got bolstered. The system wasn't radically altered. Maybe the waterboy was wearing fucking boxers instead of briefs, and that made all the difference?

Fine, I would reply. Yes, those were one-offs. RSL, New York, all the others. One-offs. But if that's what you're going to call them, then what do you call TFC? It lurches back and forth from mediocrity to utter failure, like some sort of confused zombie, unsure as to whether the results it's delivering are quite BAD enough for whoever happens to be manager at the time. What do you call a team that cannot improve, for the life of it, and instead seems to choose managers based on how LITTLE, not how MUCH, MLS experience they have? Now THAT is truly a one-off of a special magnitude.

Anyway, keep cheering. Don't know about you, I'm pretty happy I didn't buy season tickets this year.

[Dv23]

I had a chance to talk with Koevs during half-time. He told me that he was happy we had found a way to score, but that he was also upset at us for conceding so quickly after our second goal. Saw him again at the end of the game, and he seemed utterly dejected. These guys are feeling really shitty right about now, that's for sure.
Fun fact: He wears glasses. I found that interesting.

All the talk about Carver and Cummins is making me nostalgic. I have Cummins' sister on Facebook (no lie, I have no idea why. She added me one day after I made a funny comment about his funny interview mannerisms). Should I let her know that we're looking for a coach, and want Chris back? lol

[ecospice]

I don't know if it is mentioned in here or not...but I think one particular part of the game sums up our season to date, namely: the almost goal in the second half that resulted in the confetti cannons being activated... Can't do anything right.

[ryan]

Even if your vision of a better future for TFC did need this scenic route, what evidence is there that Winter is the guy to do it? And if that is his goal, shouldn't he then be in the Technical Director or Academy head as opposed to the guy charged with getting results from the first team?

If he can't work with players on the first team, what makes us think that he can develop the players in the reserves or the academy? We're no Ajax. We're not getting some of the best kids in Europe to train at TFC. We're lucky if we get the best kids in Toronto.

I continue to find it interesting that so many have forgiven Winter's extremely poor record on some hope that whatever he is screwing up with the first team is mitigated by the glorious results he will be getting in the long-term. Does Arena put his Academy and youth development ahead of Galaxy first team results? Does Schmid do that in Seattle? Does Sir Alex do that in Manchester or Pep do that in Barcelona? What exactly is our goal here? First team success or to produce talent that may or may not ever play for TFC???

Winter didn't build Ajax into the football factory it is. He maintained it for a while and then left under whatever circumstances he did. Their success is hardly attributable to Winter and so I have to ask why is it we think a guy who did not build Ajax should come here and build our team, let alone from a position of first team coach as opposed to a position where influencing the style and direction isn't inhibited by the very real demands of sports, which is short term results? I mean, I am truly confused how those of us demanding short-term results can be cast in a bad light. That is a fundamental aspect of a sports team! If behind the scenes a team puts in a place a system that generates longer-term results, that's great! But first and foremost it's about getting wins now!

If and when a new coach comes in, I will be making the same demands of him that I did Winter. Fix this team now and get us on track. Then fiddle with the youth and the system to ensure longer-term success. But if this first team does not get it's act together and quick, there are much worse dangers facing our long-term development than the damage of simply changing a coach.

What evidence do you have that he can't? Our worthless CCL run? Not making us top of the league in a calendar year while trying to make such widespread change? Rah rah well Chelski changed their manager and blah blah....Chelsea is also world class and the MLS is a league unlike any other. We have had players who can't consistently pass a ball. You cover up that weakness by playing direct and over aggressive. That's MLS. And when an over aggressive team plays a skilled team who is comfortable and capable, they get demolished (see CCL). The course we're taking, I believe, can make us on the right side of those games. We can become a team that forces MLS to adapt, because the brand of football played here in MLS is crap and we'll forever be owned by the Primavera clubs until we move past it.

He's been here 1 year. He changed the entire team around with how they play, and all it's been is one year. Our greatest success has come within that one year as well but that holds no worth to anyone.

Why is that everyone blames Winter for everything, when it's quoted that there's "too many influences making decisions" and the sorts. It's Winter's fault Johnson has repeatedly missed by inches, but no credit for him for the fact that he continues to find himself in that dangerous position? It's Winter's fault the personnel is how it is, but are we not told that "he's Cochrane's guy"..."he was signed by Mo" ..."Eck's is Marnier's guy"...etc. So I suppose the players we have, which we cannot confirm are here because of Winter or not, are all his fault anyways too?

I don't argue my stance because I'm a huge believer in Winter, I don't know if he's the guy myself, but I believe in what we're trying to do under him. I do however think it's rather ridiculous how it's entirely his fault, yet we hear so much other news as to why decisions are, and who is making them.


I guess I give the learning curve and duration that is needed to make what is trying to be achieved possible, more respect than most.


A simple question. Do you believe any coach in the world, can take a roster of MLS mid rate players who have played direct football for the most part of their playing careers, and turn them in a free flowing 4-3-3 / 3-4-3 side, within a year and have success while doing it? I can't imagine there's a long list of capable people, nor would I imagine those people would be looking at MLS as an option either.

[Beach_Red]

^ When did the people of Toronto ever say they wanted to see that style? Right now all we want are wins.

And, to tell you the truth, if we don't win I'd rather we be tough to play against instead of pretty. Right now it's a holiday for teams to come to Toronto. We may not like the culture that was already here before the consultant told us which one we'd like, but this is a grinder's city, a worker's city. When we try to do something flashy like host the Olympics, we fail. It's not us.

Remember, when this city had winning sports teams they were built on the belief, "If they can't beat you in the alley, they can't beat you on the ice." That's actually our heritage, whether we like it or not.

It's why fans like Eckersly so much.

[Whoop]

Ownership is watching..... Ooooooh

[ag futbol]

And that's the problem -- as Beaches pointed out from day one -- the initial assumption by Klinsmann that the best way to accelerate the growth of American soccer is to make it identical to the most "attractive" form, rather than the one that best suits the combination of tactical advancements and the existing limitations on youth development.

I was thinking about this today actually. There are just certain aspects about the game that coaches / parents in North America misunderstand and this puts limits on technical development. Extreme example: "why aren't the kids running more in practice?"

The lack of a distinct style will continue to be an issue IMO, even in the USA post-Klinsman. I have no idea what the winning formula is, but it has to be a combination of what's necessary from a technical standpoint and what's acceptable from a cultural one. If the CSA and USSF weren't such directionless entities run by armies of volunteers who are given or accept little direction, maybe things would be better.

Maybe what I'm trying to say is ... we're always trying to import culture and failing, because we fail to realize how we're different.

[Kilgore Trout]

I had a chance to talk with Koevs during half-time. He told me that he was happy we had found a way to score, but that he was also upset at us for conceding so quickly after our second goal. Saw him again at the end of the game, and he seemed utterly dejected. These guys are feeling really shitty right about now, that's for sure.
Fun fact: He wears glasses. I found that interesting.

All the talk about Carver and Cummins is making me nostalgic. I have Cummins' sister on Facebook (no lie, I have no idea why. She added me one day after I made a funny comment about his funny interview mannerisms). Should I let her know that we're looking for a coach, and want Chris back? lol

He has a job in a Reading organization that seems well-off and did extremely well in the Championship this year. I'm happy for him.

[ryan]

^ When did the people of Toronto ever say they wanted to see that style? Right now all we want are wins.

And, to tell you the truth, if we don't win I'd rather we be tough to play against instead of pretty. Right now it's a holiday for teams to come to Toronto. We may not like the culture that was already here before the consultant told us which one we'd like, but this is a grinder's city, a worker's city. When we try to do something flashy like host the Olympics, we fail. It's not us.

Remember, when this city had winning sports teams they were built on the belief, "If they can't beat you in the alley, they can't beat you on the ice." That's actually our heritage, whether we like it or not.

It's why fans like Eckersly so much.

What does what the people of Toronto want really matter in terms of how we play? You want wins. Are Toronto fans going to be pissed if they win in a style that isn't rough and haggard? Not really, as long as they win nobody is going to complain. I'm sure they'll love whatever style gets W's.

I believe, the club believes, they are on the path to winning regularly. By emanating a form that, with proper execution, runs roughshod over MLS clubs and the way they play. It's still a work in progress, give the roster a year at least?

Look. There's no guarantee we are going to win regularly on our given path, I don't believe our current results are a fair indicator either way personally...as I don't see it's been long enough to say. But I will also say that making another change, which we've seen not work on 6 occasions now, is no guarantee to winning either. The answer to not winning is not always "make a change". Just ask the New York Giants of the NFL who were seemingly on the edge of changing their coach and starting QB, yet now hold 2 more titles by sticking through the trouble and staying the course. I'm sure I can find a soccer related example if you want, but in sport, there is no proof that one way (staying the course/changing the coach) is the right way.

In summary, we may thrive or fail in either direction, but I think it's rather ridiculous to expect the extreme changes put forth to be not without pain until we've gotten closer to completed product. And again, there has been glory (CCL) along the way as well, but it seems no credit will be given for that right now, so I digress.

[ExiledRed]

The people who moderate perception of truth first aren't usually doing it for the right reasons. That's ALSO true of human behavior, which is why it takes longer for the group to adapt -- they want proof before they condemn something, not general indications.

So the people who were right, were wrong , and the people who were wrong, were in fact right? - OK. got it. Sounds like ass covering to me.

The proof was in front of you, these weren't 'indications' they were real valid issues I had with the coach's style and attitude. I wasnt jumping to conclusions at all. Every single thing that Roogsy, myself and many others pointed out, has proved to be something you should have been looking at when deciding if this coach was competent enough to create a winning formula in MLS. Why did you need to 'wait and see?' you claim to know football inside out, but it takes a whole year to figure out a shambles is a shambles? Ive been watching footy for thirty five years, I maybe couldn't write an essay on the 'higher game' like you and Oldtimer like to do but I know what Im looking at and I know when I see a coach that's up his own arse and out of his depth.

You actually called for Winter's resignation before I did. I thought you'd come to your senses, but within two hours you'd recanted.

[ExiledRed]

I'm saying you can't call someone a failure until they've actually failed. .

oh dear.

If you see a hunter holding his gun the wrong way round and about to blow his own brains out to the amusement of an onlooking deer..... Do you really need to see him pull the trigger to know what's going to happen?

[Strans]

Great back and forth. Perfectly sums up the way I feel.

On one hand, it's obviously disheartening to have 0 points from 6 games. As a good Torontonian, I say 'that's not good enough! Winter should be Fired!'

Then I move on to: do I really think that firing Winter will make this team better now? Any new manager would have to put in a whole new style which always takes time to adapt to etc. so I think no, they would not have immediate success with this team.

SO

that leads me to this season being essentially another (ugh) lost/developmental year where a system is taught (and hopefully) learned. Fine, that's just where we're at. But then the question then becomes one of long-term goals: Does Winter (and the 4-3-3/3-4-3 style) promise the possibility of more long-term success than another manager/approach?

This is where I struggle. is it really worth blowing this thing up? I'm enticed by the potential of the style and discouraged by the results, but if any decision is made based on long-term success at this point anyways, I think I want to stay the course at least for a little while longer.

but every week I end up back at the top of this, questioning the viability of the system, the tactics/substitutions of the manager (And his seeming lack of adaptability), and the quality of the players on the pitch and thinking Winter's gotta go.



So thanks for adding depth to my inner turmoil. Keep up the good discussion.

[Rene Kingsriver]

What evidence do you have that he can't? Our worthless CCL run? Not making us top of the league in a calendar year while trying to make such widespread change? Rah rah well Chelski changed their manager and blah blah....Chelsea is also world class and the MLS is a league unlike any other. We have had players who can't consistently pass a ball. You cover up that weakness by playing direct and over aggressive. That's MLS. And when an over aggressive team plays a skilled team who is comfortable and capable, they get demolished (see CCL). The course we're taking, I believe, can make us on the right side of those games. We can become a team that forces MLS to adapt, because the brand of football played here in MLS is crap and we'll forever be owned by the Primavera clubs until we move past it.

He's been here 1 year. He changed the entire team around with how they play, and all it's been is one year. Our greatest success has come within that one year as well but that holds no worth to anyone.

Why is that everyone blames Winter for everything, when it's quoted that there's "too many influences making decisions" and the sorts. It's Winter's fault Johnson has repeatedly missed by inches, but no credit for him for the fact that he continues to find himself in that dangerous position? It's Winter's fault the personnel is how it is, but are we not told that "he's Cochrane's guy"..."he was signed by Mo" ..."Eck's is Marnier's guy"...etc. So I suppose the players we have, which we cannot confirm are here because of Winter or not, are all his fault anyways too?

I don't argue my stance because I'm a huge believer in Winter, I don't know if he's the guy myself, but I believe in what we're trying to do under him. I do however think it's rather ridiculous how it's entirely his fault, yet we hear so much other news as to why decisions are, and who is making them.


I guess I give the learning curve and duration that is needed to make what is trying to be achieved possible, more respect than most.


A simple question. Do you believe any coach in the world, can take a roster of MLS mid rate players who have played direct football for the most part of their playing careers, and turn them in a free flowing 4-3-3 / 3-4-3 side, within a year and have success while doing it? I can't imagine there's a long list of capable people, nor would I imagine those people would be looking at MLS as an option either.

If there's one consistent viewpoint on here that really annoys the hell out of me its the implication that anything but tiki-fucking-taka is automatically hoofball. I watched DC United v NYRB earlier, yeah there were occasional long balls but none of them were aimless, there was quick accurate passing and skilful wing play. Same applies to formations ffs plenty of teams have played attractive ball on the ground 4-4-2. Its this stupid snobbery that has made us such a target for the rest of the league, do you honestly think that other coaches and players don't make an extra effort to beat us after hearing Winter's disdain for them.

[Pookie]

I always love "I told you so" posts. Curiously, not one was posted after defeating LA or in the game thread vs Santos in the first half. I guess picking spots is the key to a successful "I told you so" post.

But I digress.

To suggest Winter needs to be replaced... or as a number are saying... Anselmi first and then maybe Winter... isn't necessarily an indication of failure. There is an immediate and long term picture.

The immediate picture is ugly. Given what the team has, including available players and rumored meddling from internal factions it is as ugly as the record. Which is brutal. If the buck stops with Winter on the current record, the grade is clearly failure.

That said, to think Winter can turn it around is challenging even the most optimistic of the group. Further, given what the team has, including bad contracts, OSA developed immediate prospects and rumored meddling from internal factions, how can anyone be sure that anyone can maintain a sustainable turn around?

The long term picture is one of debate. Would a technically advanced system with players that could play it, and are developed internally be able to ensure that the team could differentiate itself successfully in MLS? Sounds like it could and maybe Winter could lead that. Maybe not as head coach. The truth is that if Total Football is the plan, you aren't going to necessarily find a more experienced person with over 80 caps from the country that perfected it and who learned from one of the pioneering academies to play it.

Define what you are judging him on, short term record exclusively? Then yes, failure. Long Term development? Then, how can you conclude failure when none of us can predict the future?

[Beach_Red]

What does what the people of Toronto want really matter in terms of how we play? You want wins. Are Toronto fans going to be pissed if they win in a style that isn't rough and haggard? Not really, as long as they win nobody is going to complain. I'm sure they'll love whatever style gets W's.

I believe, the club believes, they are on the path to winning regularly. By emanating a form that, with proper execution, runs roughshod over MLS clubs and the way they play. It's still a work in progress, give the roster a year at least?

Look. There's no guarantee we are going to win regularly on our given path, I don't believe our current results are a fair indicator either way personally...as I don't see it's been long enough to say. But I will also say that making another change, which we've seen not work on 6 occasions now, is no guarantee to winning either. The answer to not winning is not always "make a change". Just ask the New York Giants of the NFL who were seemingly on the edge of changing their coach and starting QB, yet now hold 2 more titles by sticking through the trouble and staying the course. I'm sure I can find a soccer related example if you want, but in sport, there is no proof that one way (staying the course/changing the coach) is the right way.

In summary, we may thrive or fail in either direction, but I think it's rather ridiculous to expect the extreme changes put forth to be not without pain until we've gotten closer to completed product. And again, there has been glory (CCL) along the way as well, but it seems no credit will be given for that right now, so I digress.

Maybe we should stop calling getting blown out by the first real opposition we encountered "glory." it's like Leaf fans who refer to the "glory years" of the early 90s (yes, there were a couple of good games against LA and the first game against Santos Laguna was good, but the way they ended the second game must make you think that maybe they weren't giving it their all in the first game).

Look, I realize this is a personal issue for me and I apologize. I work in the cultural industries so every time I see the phrase "import a culture" it gets my back up. But all I've really seen here is marketing. And the usual arrogance we get when a European talks to us about soccer. I'm glad you mentioned the Giants because it reminded me that North Americans do actually know a little something about sports. Of course, it was Coughlin's second Super Bowl, so when he said "trust me," it was a lot easier to accept. And I can't imagine him ever dragging a player out for a press conference the way Winter did with Cann.

Anyway, we're simply not going to agree. You think they're on the right track and I hope you're right (because I believe Anselmi when he said they have to work it out, I think they're done spending money on this team and the guys who are here now are the guys who will finish the season, even if it's 0-34). I think they should have put the "culture" stuff on the back burner until they were at least good enough to get into the MLS playoffs. And even then, maybe someone who'd been in the city longer than ten minutes could have contributed to the discussion about the culture here.

[Shakes McQueen]

oh dear.

If you see a hunter holding his gun the wrong way round and about to blow his own brains out to the amusement of an onlooking deer..... Do you really need to see him pull the trigger to know what's going to happen?

Oh yeah, this is definitely a fair analogy to the situation. When you shoot a gun, we all know what happens. It's a mechanical object designed to do one extremely predictable thing. If football management was one tenth as binary and predictable as you're claiming it is here, you'd be managing Barcelona right now, and swimming in a pool of Champions League trophies every morning.

- Scott