I don't think I want TFC in Champs League next year

[tfcleeds]

Again, I have no problems doing well in the CCL. Heck, I want us to be in the CCL every year. But that satisfaction is vastly tempered by knowing what we really are about, and that is more readily measured, in my opinion, by our position in MLS. And perhaps the Liverpool example isn't totally apt, but I was using it to illustrate what I'm getting at, which is at the end of the day, I value success in our league. That alone will really show how far we've progressed. You may say the prize isn't greater, but in my opinion, the amount of satisfaction at being crowned the best in your respective league is pretty darn substantial.

[trane]

I can't speak for everyone who feels this way but, for me and some others, the MLS is a US league. If TFC played in a Canadian league, then I'd have something to really care about. As long as TFC is in MLS, I'll be fine with competitive play provided it entertains.


I don't think comparing TFC to Liverpool is apt or productive. Liverpool plays in a domestic league.

Exactly. I do not want us to be the laughing stock of the league, but I really could not care less about hoisting a Yankee trophy.

[Waggy]

Ensco, you're obviously right. I think the question is more- rest players in league games to concentrate on CCL, or rest players in CCL games to concentrate on the league. Of course when watching everyone here wants TFC to win every single game.

[tfcleeds]

Well MLS is what we've got for now, so I don't see why people are downplaying it so much.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Well MLS is what we've got for now, so I don't see why people are downplaying it so much.

I've accepted it's "our" league or our domestic until we can grow further but by this statement we ignore that this region (CONCACAF) is our region. the above quote asks for pride in our league. I have it but no one near the pride I have for the growth of our region.

[Waggy]

Am I the only one who feels a little bad that we enter the CCL through the back door year after year? I mean, every year there have been at least 10 MLS clubs more qualified than us that had literally zero chance to qualify. Doesn't it disrespect our region, and bring down the quality of the tournament, to not have the best clubs in there? If we are going to accomplish something in the CCL I'd love to earn it, the real way. Like every other club of our size/caliber does. A 4 (really 3) team tournament is a farce. Of course I want to win it, and of course I NEVER want Vancouver or MTL to win it, but at the same time, it's a cheapie. Almost a freebie. I'd be happier if we qualified through league play like the rest of MLS (outside of the US Open winner anyways. but that's a legit tourny with dozens and dozens of entrants). Hell, I'd be OK with us being in the US open. I know that's not rah rah soccer canada, but soccer in Canada isn't there yet. And realistically, we will never have a domestic league, at least not a 1st division one. MLS IS our domestic league. When you live in a country with the population of Canada that's divided into basically 3 cities, it's just not realistic to set up any sort of high level league. If the CFL was trying to get started now it'd be dead in 2 years. It developed in a simpler time, before money and advertising dollars and tv contracts were so important.

[tfcleeds]

I've accepted it's "our" league or our domestic until we can grow further but by this statement we ignore that this region (CONCACAF) is our region. the above quote asks for pride in our league. I have it but no one near the pride I have for the growth of our region.

So I gather then that as long as we qualify for CCL every year, and have a strong run in that tournament, we can still continue to suck ass in MLS and people will be happy with it? OK, so that isn't what people are saying, but I don't want to just get by with the bare minimum in MLS so long as we manage to do well in the CCL. I want us to win the darn thing. I only take issue with some quotes on here (not yours by the way) that seem to suggest the CCL is the only thing that matters. Regionally, well, perhaps it is. But 30+ of the matches TFC plays in any given year have nothing to do with that.

[tfcleeds]

Am I the only one who feels a little bad that we enter the CCL through the back door year after year? I mean, every year there have been at least 10 MLS clubs more qualified than us that had literally zero chance to qualify. Doesn't it disrespect our region, and bring down the quality of the tournament, to not have the best clubs in there? If we are going to accomplish something in the CCL I'd love to earn it, the real way. Like every other club of our size/caliber does. A 4 (really 3) team tournament is a farce. Of course I want to win it, and of course I NEVER want Vancouver or MTL to win it, but at the same time, it's a cheapie. Almost a freebie. I'd be happier if we qualified through league play like the rest of MLS (outside of the US Open winner anyways. but that's a legit tourny with dozens and dozens of entrants).

This.

[trane]

^ Not for me. I do not care about US teams not making through. They are our enemies in my books. The Canadian teams that are here, have a tournament and who merits qualifies. That is ok with me. Plus this year it will be no cake walk.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Am I the only one who feels a little bad that we enter the CCL through the back door year after year? I mean, every year there have been at least 10 MLS clubs more qualified than us that had literally zero chance to qualify. Doesn't it disrespect our region, and bring down the quality of the tournament, to not have the best clubs in there? If we are going to accomplish something in the CCL I'd love to earn it, the real way. Like every other club of our size/caliber does. A 4 (really 3) team tournament is a farce. Of course I want to win it, and of course I NEVER want Vancouver or MTL to win it, but at the same time, it's a cheapie. Almost a freebie. I'd be happier if we qualified through league play like the rest of MLS (outside of the US Open winner anyways. but that's a legit tourny with dozens and dozens of entrants). Hell, I'd be OK with us being in the US open. I know that's not rah rah soccer canada, but soccer in Canada isn't there yet. And realistically, we will never have a domestic league, at least not a 1st division one. MLS IS our domestic league. When you live in a country with the population of Canada that's divided into basically 3 cities, it's just not realistic to set up any sort of high level league. If the CFL was trying to get started now it'd be dead in 2 years. It developed in a simpler time, before money and advertising dollars and tv contracts were so important.

Sad. So you would scrap any progress we've made as a nation? Vancouver and Montreal benefited in at least exposure for being in the Vcup before they made it to MLS. I hope Edmonton can get some of that as well.

How is it you imagine Canadian Soccer "getting there" if not for using the most popular teams as spotlights for an all Canadian tournament? It's not the be all end all but it's progress vs capitulating out nations piece of the regional pie.

[Fort York Redcoat]

So I gather then that as long as we qualify for CCL every year, and have a strong run in that tournament, we can still continue to suck ass in MLS and people will be happy with it? OK, so that isn't what people are saying, but I don't want to just get by with the bare minimum in MLS so long as we manage to do well in the CCL. I want us to win the darn thing. I only take issue with some quotes on here (not yours by the way) that seem to suggest the CCL is the only thing that matters. Regionally, well, perhaps it is. But 30+ of the matches TFC plays in any given year have nothing to do with that.

I don't speak for the majority but I know some in the minority feel less excited about playoff play than ranking good enough in the table to qualify for playoff play.

Personally, playoffs is something we'd get into if we were good enough to be consistent in CCL. The outcome of said playoffs doesn't concern me as much as the table at the end of the year.

[Oldtimer]

Personally, my own measurement of the team is:

CCL (and hopefully CWC some day)
Supporters' Shield
MLS Cup in that order.

But if you look at the people wanting to fire Winter even though TFC did very well in the CCL, you know that the average Joe thinks the MLS Cup is the most important thing.

[Boris]

Personally, my own measurement of the team is:

CCL (and hopefully CWC some day)
Supporters' Shield
MLS Cup in that order.

But if you look at the people wanting to fire Winter even though TFC did very well in the CCL, you know that the average Joe thinks the MLS Cup is the most important thing.

that seems to be a very north american way of thinking to say the least.

I agree with your order of things though

[Waggy]

Sad. So you would scrap any progress we've made as a nation? Vancouver and Montreal benefited in at least exposure for being in the Vcup before they made it to MLS. I hope Edmonton can get some of that as well.

How is it you imagine Canadian Soccer "getting there" if not for using the most popular teams as spotlights for an all Canadian tournament? It's not the be all end all but it's progress vs capitulating out nations piece of the regional pie.

Our progress as a soccer nation hasn't come from the CCL. It's come from MLS. Vancouver and Montreal weren't bumped up to MLS because of success in the CCL, but because of success in the league (USL). More off pitch than on for that matter. MLS has been the driver in growth and investment in soccer in Canada. I know no Canadian wants to hear that an American league is driving the sport in our country, but it is. And it's not necessarily a bad thing. I don't say scrap a Canadian tournament, but the winner of a 4 team tournament shouldn't receive the same prize that the MLS champion, Mexican Champion, US Open Champion etc have to fight damn hard for. This is how teams can enter the CCL:

Belize, league winner (1 of 8)
El Salvador, winner of each of the 2 seasons (2 of 10)
Cost Rica, top 2 in the league of 12
Guatemala top 2 in the league of 12
Honduras top 2 in the league of 10
Panama top 2 in the league of 10
Nicaragua league champ, 1 of 10
Caribbean clubs qualify through placing top 3 in a tourny (of 15 teams from 31 countries). They play a 3 round tourney to narrow the field http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFU_Club_Championship
Mexico the top 4 in the league qualify
US: Supporters Shield Winner (1 of 16 teams), MLS Cup finalists (2 of 16 teams), US Open winners (1 of 64)
Canada: Amway Canadian Champs winner (1 of 4. 1 of whom from the 3rd division) Playing a 4 game tourney

One of these things is not like the others

[tfcleeds]

Sad. So you would scrap any progress we've made as a nation? Vancouver and Montreal benefited in at least exposure for being in the Vcup before they made it to MLS. I hope Edmonton can get some of that as well. How is it you imagine Canadian Soccer "getting there" if not for using the most popular teams as spotlights for an all Canadian tournament? It's not the be all end all but it's progress vs capitulating out nations piece of the regional pie.

You could make the argument though that Vancouver and Montreal joining MLS has, and will, do more for their exposure in the long run (and consequently do more for Canadian soccer as a result) than an annual 4-team tourney ever would have done. Vancouver and Montreal have both been around for a long time, it was their inclusion in MLS that has made more people in their respective cities take notice.Yes, I realize for now, the Canadian Championship is the only avenue a Canadian team can gain a spot in the CCL, since we don't have our own domestic league. But at the same time, it just feels a bit weird and even unsatisfactory considering that by any other measures, we had no real right to qualify. I'd feel we were more deserving of our spot with a better showing in our league, which like it or not, is MLS. Hopefully this will be the case sooner or later.

[Boris]

Our progress as a soccer nation hasn't come from the CCL. It's come from MLS. Vancouver and Montreal weren't bumped up to MLS because of success in the CCL, but because of success in the league (USL). More off pitch than on for that matter. MLS has been the driver in growth and investment in soccer in Canada. I know no Canadian wants to hear that an American league is driving the sport in our country, but it is. And it's not necessarily a bad thing. I don't say scrap a Canadian tournament, but the winner of a 4 team tournament shouldn't receive the same prize that the MLS champion, Mexican Champion, US Open Champion etc have to fight damn hard for. This is how teams can enter the CCL:

Belize, league winner (1 of 8)
El Salvador, winner of each of the 2 seasons (2 of 10)
Cost Rica, top 2 in the league of 12
Guatemala top 2 in the league of 12
Honduras top 2 in the league of 10
Panama top 2 in the league of 10
Nicaragua league champ, 1 of 10
Caribbean clubs qualify through placing top 3 in a tourny (of 15 teams from 31 countries). They play a 3 round tourney to narrow the field http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFU_Club_Championship
Mexico the top 4 in the league qualify
US: Supporters Shield Winner (1 of 16 teams), MLS Cup finalists (2 of 16 teams), US Open winners (1 of 64)
Canada: Amway Canadian Champs winner (1 of 4. 1 of whom isn't even in the top division) Playing a 4 game tourney

One of these things is not like the others

having said all that - theres been progress which seemed to be petes point i think

[Roogsy]

Am I the only one who feels a little bad that we enter the CCL through the back door year after year? I mean, every year there have been at least 10 MLS clubs more qualified than us that had literally zero chance to qualify. Doesn't it disrespect our region, and bring down the quality of the tournament, to not have the best clubs in there? If we are going to accomplish something in the CCL I'd love to earn it, the real way. Like every other club of our size/caliber does. A 4 (really 3) team tournament is a farce. Of course I want to win it, and of course I NEVER want Vancouver or MTL to win it, but at the same time, it's a cheapie. Almost a freebie. I'd be happier if we qualified through league play like the rest of MLS (outside of the US Open winner anyways. but that's a legit tourny with dozens and dozens of entrants). Hell, I'd be OK with us being in the US open. I know that's not rah rah soccer canada, but soccer in Canada isn't there yet. And realistically, we will never have a domestic league, at least not a 1st division one. MLS IS our domestic league. When you live in a country with the population of Canada that's divided into basically 3 cities, it's just not realistic to set up any sort of high level league. If the CFL was trying to get started now it'd be dead in 2 years. It developed in a simpler time, before money and advertising dollars and tv contracts were so important.

I don't mind being given a break so I don't feel completely bad about it. Every year in UEFA, small teams make it in and play against United and Barca despite not being at the same level. It's not meant to be a tourney of equals.

However, you at least acknowledge that we have a pretty easy qualification in. MY problem is when people somehow equate success in the NCC as somehow being a better indication of the current state of the club as opposed to the league results, which in my opinion reflect the true quality of this club. Beating FC Edmonton and Real Esteli doesn't tell me what a great job management is doing. Getting more points this year than last year in the league does.

As for the CCL itself, it's interesting to see people give it so much importance now when it didn't mean shit 4 years ago. I think this is more a result of hope and desire that the CCL becomes a similar story to the UCL because in no way shape or form does the CCL have any sort of prestige or tradition. It has struggled for years in it's previous form and only now beginning to attain some level of interest. Us arbitrarily giving us importance doesn't actually mean it does outside our TFC world although CONCACAF is trying and may eventually attain some level of importance. But that's not today.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Our progress as a soccer nation hasn't come from the CCL. It's come from MLS. Vancouver and Montreal weren't bumped up to MLS because of success in the CCL, but because of success in the league (USL). More off pitch than on for that matter. MLS has been the driver in growth and investment in soccer in Canada. I know no Canadian wants to hear that an American league is driving the sport in our country, but it is. And it's not necessarily a bad thing. I don't say scrap a Canadian tournament, but the winner of a 4 team tournament shouldn't receive the same prize that the MLS champion, Mexican Champion, US Open Champion etc have to fight damn hard for. This is how teams can enter the CCL:

Belize, league winner (1 of 8)
El Salvador, winner of each of the 2 seasons (2 of 10)
Cost Rica, top 2 in the league of 12
Guatemala top 2 in the league of 12
Honduras top 2 in the league of 10
Panama top 2 in the league of 10
Nicaragua league champ, 1 of 10
Caribbean clubs qualify through placing top 3 in a tourny (of 15 teams from 31 countries). They play a 3 round tourney to narrow the field http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFU_Club_Championship
Mexico the top 4 in the league qualify
US: Supporters Shield Winner (1 of 16 teams), MLS Cup finalists (2 of 16 teams), US Open winners (1 of 64)
Canada: Amway Canadian Champs winner (1 of 4. 1 of whom from the 3rd division) Playing a 4 game tourney

One of these things is not like the others

Yes I'm well aware that most casual exposure was from MLS not the Vcup (hell most people don't even call it that unfortunately) but that wasn't my point.

Of your list above no other country GETS to play with the US in their domestic league because they aren't big enough or in one case are bigger (MEX).

The only reason we think this way at large in Canada is because every other sport grew from the Great Lakes region outward historically and are NA sports first. Football isn't like that as I'm sure you're aware. To cede any National tournament is to relinquish progress towards the success of Canada in the world.

I don't find it appealing that we cling to American leagues as an afterthought and would much rather see a little pride in trying to build things on our own but....well....I guess that comes off as "rah rah". It's my opinion and we both know I'm in the minority so I wouldn't worry about it. Abandoning that tournament is more likely to happen than not. I will not be one celebrating that.

[Waggy]

having said all that - theres been progress which seemed to be petes point i think

Yes for sure. I don't mean to belittle the tournies importance to Canada. I just mean if taking off my TFC hat and putting on my sports fan hat, it really isn't a fair situation. Maybe it's the Canadian in me, but I want to win playing the same way as our competition. I don't want charity. Winning the Belize league is hardly the same was the Mexican. But it's a real competition amongst a larger group of fairly equal clubs. I feel Champions League is something that should be earned, not handed to you. Just my opinion though (obviously). And any all Canadian tournament certainly has value. If we created a Lamar Hunt type tourney for Canada I'd be all for it, I think it'd be great for the country and would be a more legitimate way into the tournament. Plus it would ACTUALLY grow the sport in Canada. Imagine if Milltown FC could qualify to play TFC at BMO for the CCL spot?

[Roogsy]

Yes for sure. I don't mean to belittle the tournies importance to Canada. I just mean if taking off my TFC hat and putting on my sports fan hat, it really isn't a fair situation. Maybe it's the Canadian in me, but I want to win playing the same way as our competition. I don't want charity. Winning the Belize league is hardly the same was the Mexican. But it's a real competition amongst a larger group of fairly equal clubs. I feel Champions League is something that should be earned, not handed to you. Just my opinion though (obviously). And any all Canadian tournament certainly has value. If we created a Lamar Hunt type tourney for Canada I'd be all for it, I think it'd be great for the country and would be a more legitimate way into the tournament. Plus it would ACTUALLY grow the sport in Canada. Imagine if Milltown FC could qualify to play TFC at BMO for the CCL spot?

I'm down with this...

[Stouffville_RPB]

This is how teams can enter the CCL:

Belize, league winner (1 of 8)
El Salvador, winner of each of the 2 seasons (2 of 10) 12.5%
Cost Rica, top 2 in the league of 12 16.6%
Guatemala top 2 in the league of 12 16.6%
Honduras top 2 in the league of 10 20%
Panama top 2 in the league of 10 20%
Nicaragua league champ, 1 of 10 10%
Caribbean clubs qualify through placing top 3 in a tourny (of 15 teams from 31 countries). They play a 3 round tourney to narrow the field http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFU_Club_Championship
Mexico the top 4 in the league qualify
US: Supporters Shield Winner (1 of 16 teams), MLS Cup finalists (2 of 16 teams), US Open winners (1 of 64)
Canada: Amway Canadian Champs winner (1 of 4. 1 of whom from the 3rd division) Playing a 4 game tourney

One of these things is not like the others

While I see where you're coming from the percentages of Canadian teams to qualifying teams is pretty close to Honduras and Panama (20% v 25%). Add to that Montreal and Toronto have both advanced to the QF and SF and I think people can argue that adding a team capable of making some noise to the CL is worth 5%.

It's been discussed before but until the VCup is opened to semi-pro teams (CSL, PCSL) and perhaps run in a FA Cup style this is the hand that must be played.

[JamboAl]

People have to understand that the MLS is a USSF sanctioned league. Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are in the league because these are good markets but also because FIFA, the USSF and MLS allows it. If FIFA ever decided to crack down on "foreign clubs" in a domestic competition, we'd be, in theory, thrown out of MLS. We cannot (and should not) be able to qualify for the CCL through MLS; that's why the Canadian Championship was set up. There's no choice in the matter and until that changes, if you believe the CCL is the most important competition to be in, then our "cheapie" championship is the most important competition we will compete in only because it provides a route into the big one on this continent.

But I am not anti-MLS at all. What the MLS does is allow us to have clubs capable of organizing and competing in a Cdn championship which is recognized by CONCACAF. I want us to do well in the MLS and it provides the much needed week to week competition that pays the bills and brings in most of the fans. But if we can be semi-finalists in the CCL every year, then I'll go without MLS playoffs. Not that they should be mutually exclusive!

[Roogsy]

All I know is that I would rather beat the NY Red Bulls or the Columbus Crew and it would mean more to me, than to go and beat Joe Public FC or some team from Belize. Normally, teams in UEFA's CL that do well are also the same teams that do well in their own league. If we can't do well in our league, what makes us think going up against Mexican giants will be different?

[__wowza]

Am I the only one who feels a little bad that we enter the CCL through the back door year after year?

my mum got me my current job, when she did she said "i can get you the job, but you have to keep it". we've qualified for the champions league through the only route we're given, but it's up to us to prove we belong there. i can think of dozens of teams better than joe public or police force, but they still qualify using their local channels as well.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Yes for sure. I don't mean to belittle the tournies importance to Canada. I just mean if taking off my TFC hat and putting on my sports fan hat, it really isn't a fair situation. Maybe it's the Canadian in me, but I want to win playing the same way as our competition. I don't want charity. Winning the Belize league is hardly the same was the Mexican. But it's a real competition amongst a larger group of fairly equal clubs. I feel Champions League is something that should be earned, not handed to you. Just my opinion though (obviously). And any all Canadian tournament certainly has value. If we created a Lamar Hunt type tourney for Canada I'd be all for it, I think it'd be great for the country and would be a more legitimate way into the tournament. Plus it would ACTUALLY grow the sport in Canada. Imagine if Milltown FC could qualify to play TFC at BMO for the CCL spot?

This is completely different from the op direction for me.

The Voyageurs Cup began as just that, a competition for lower league Canadian teams and if they starting adding teams that would be brilliant but the problem Waggy is the timing of the tournament. Could someone look into the US open schedule for me? How many months does it go? The lower leagues in Canada would have to start an expanded Vcup competition well before their seasons started and there are issues to get players in early moneywise.

[Oldtimer]

Our progress as a soccer nation hasn't come from the CCL. It's come from MLS. Vancouver and Montreal weren't bumped up to MLS because of success in the CCL, but because of success in the league (USL).

Nice in theory. You don't think nearly 60k attendance in Montreal for a CCL match had nothing to do with it? Garber's eyes nearly popped out of his head when that happened, he mentioned it afterwards so many times. The 15k for league games was respectable, no doubt, but the 60k was a game-changer. That's what convinced MLS to talk to Joey even though he had previously pissed them off by trying to get an expansion franchise on the cheap.

[BayernTFC]

Am I the only one who feels a little bad that we enter the CCL through the back door year after year? I mean, every year there have been at least 10 MLS clubs more qualified than us that had literally zero chance to qualify. Doesn't it disrespect our region, and bring down the quality of the tournament, to not have the best clubs in there?

That's why the US has 4 berths in the CCL and Canada only has one. If US teams want in the tournament, they know how to qualify. The CCL is a tournament of national champions for the CONCACAF region. If you want to see only the best US teams playing, you have the MLS playoffs to watch. Why not have a World Cup with only the best national teams involved?

[Waggy]

This is completely different from the op direction for me.

The Voyageurs Cup began as just that, a competition for lower league Canadian teams and if they starting adding teams that would be brilliant but the problem Waggy is the timing of the tournament. Could someone look into the US open schedule for me? How many months does it go? The lower leagues in Canada would have to start an expanded Vcup competition well before their seasons started and there are issues to get players in early moneywise.

Ya there's a few different threads going in this one. But it's all interesting discussion. Basically I'm saying to separate the V Cup from CCL qualification unless the tournament is expanded to be a REAL national tournament. Otherwise we should enter through our league like everyone else does. And in the near term, this year I'd strongly prefer to be focusing on the league, and experimenting/playing kids in the CCL games instead of either trying to win both (and running into exhaustion/injury problems), or sacrificing league wins for a shot at CCL. As a team still learning how to play, there will be loses.

I know logistically there are many many problems with expanding the V Cup. I know most CSL clubs couldn't afford to travel to Vancouver to play there, and that a lot don't have stadiums suitable to host any sorts of major games. But logistics can be overcome. Especially since money is starting to come into the soccer coffers here. There can be solutions found (having the smaller clubs have their own tournament late in the season, then introduce the big clubs early in the next or something), and revenue sharing from big clubs to small. Air Canada is a sponsor, why don't they sponsor some flights for clubs that couldn't afford them?


To completely side track this whole discussion, MLSE wants to be the leader for Soccer in Canada much like the Jays lead baseball Canada, and the Raps lead Basketball Canada right? Why aren't they doing more to help the financial situations of small clubs in Canada? Why aren't they setting up exhibitions against the CSL all stars (with profits being split among the small clubs), instead of Liverpool? Why aren't there more tournaments at BMO hosted by TFC? Why isn't there a "Toronto Cup" or some such thing, where the University teams, the CSL clubs, any other sanctioned teams in the GTA and the TFC reserves/academy play a few games over labour day weekend or something? Take advantage of the people at the Ex, bus in U of T, York and Ryerson students. Let the various ethnic teams come try their hands etc. I know they wouldn't exactly draw 20 000 people, but if they can get a few thousand people at 5 bucks each that's a shit ton of money to go into the semi pro and amateur clubs in the city. And moreover, it gives a stage and platform for non first division soccer in the mainstream consciousness.



And just to clarify, I love the CCL. I love watching the tournament. I love TFC being in it. I just don't think for us this year it should be given much in the way of importance. Success in the CCL hasn't brought us a great club. Or even a good one. But I feel success in the league WOULD necessitate that. And right now, I don't care so much about how TFC stacks up against Mexicos best (or any other country). We can't stack up to average in our own league. And to me that's a far bigger problem.


Edit: Great point oldtimer
And Bayern, tbh, yes. I do. I think our equivalent in the world cup is that ridiculous oceana spot that's guaranteed. It's not the quality that I'm talking about, more the level of competition clubs/countries face for the spot. It's not just that a country like Israel could dominate New Zealand. It's that Israel has almost zero chance to ever qualify for the world cup because they would have to play dozens of elite level games over several years to qualify, instead of playing a handful of games against some of the worst soccer nations in the world. I guess what I'm saying is the OPPORTUNITY should be equal for everyone, even if the quality isn't.

[brad]

I don't mind being given a break so I don't feel completely bad about it. Every year in UEFA, small teams make it in and play against United and Barca despite not being at the same level. It's not meant to be a tourney of equals.

With the UEFA CL, I like that minnows that are champions from small leagues get in and sometimes ruffle feathers.

What I don't like is that teams from the stronger domestic leagues can get in despite not being anywhere near the best. Not picking on Liverpool here - but in 2004 they finished 4th - 30 points out of first. Next year they are in the CL and win it. I think it's a bit absurd that a team can be no where near the best in their domestic league, but considered the best in Europe.

I don't think TFC earned much respect for our deep run outside of our camp for similar reasons. Anyone that looks at us from the outside looking is sees the whipping boys of the league for the last 5 years. They see us 0-0-5 to start the new season - a record that only two other teams have matched in the history of the MLS. They look at our un and see luck.

[BayernTFC]

CCL (and hopefully CWC some day)
Supporters' Shield
MLS Cup in that order.

Same here.

the above quote asks for pride in our league. I have it but no one near the pride I have for the growth of our region.

For me, it's just a league TFC plays in. Right now it's needed so TFC can exist. If TFC, VWFC or MI aren't involved, then I'm not interested.

All I know is that I would rather beat the NY Red Bulls or the Columbus Crew and it would mean more to me, than to go and beat Joe Public FC or some team from Belize.

Are you talking about in CCL competition? What stage? If it's just MLS play then, for me, whichever US squad is performing best is most interesting. Right now it's SKC, RBNY, RSL or Seattle for me. Other than that, I have little attachment to any US citites. I'm fine with just beating Americans, wherever they come from.