Keep Winter or Scrap Him?

[Beach_Red]

^ You don't need to go to extremes. Both Mo and Winter (and Mariner) are just middle management. And it's a Medici-like corporate environment. Winter was given four games to turn this around and if he fails he'll be gone, too, but no one above his rank will be worried. We still want to see these guys in their positions the way they would be in other organizations, the way it would be "their" team, but this organization is full of politicians whose biggest skill is CYA - hell, these are guys who out-politicked Pat Quinn and Ken Dryden. There's no way some football player from Scotland or Holland or wherever is ever going to actually be in any kind of power position. Mo was a puppet as much as Winter is. You'd think everyone at head office is on the same page and has the same goal, but why should this company be any different than any other company where CYA is job #1.

[ExiledRed]

^ You don't need to go to extremes. Both Mo and Winter (and Mariner) are just middle management. And it's a Medici-like corporate environment. Winter was given four games to turn this around and if he fails he'll be gone, too, but no one above his rank will be worried. We still want to see these guys in their positions the way they would be in other organizations, the way it would be "their" team, but this organization is full of politicians whose biggest skill is CYA - hell, these are guys who out-politicked Pat Quinn and Ken Dryden. There's no way some football player from Scotland or Holland or wherever is ever going to actually be in any kind of power position. Mo was a puppet as much as Winter is. You'd think everyone at head office is on the same page and has the same goal, but why should this company be any different than any other company where CYA is job #1.

Mo was lining pockets and acquiring players through bungs. At least that seems to be the accepted unofficial story. This severely compromised whatever he was claiming he was doing, and made his grand plan nothing more than bullshit.

Bhoybobby was right, he was 'feathering his nest'. I really believe the 3-5-2 would have worked with persistence, and at the start, he was genuine.

Winter is by no means as corrupt as this, just incompetent to the max.

And your point is correct, I saw Mo as fulfilling the role of manager relative to my home team, which was an illusory standpoint. Its the same for Winter, people see him fulfilling the coaching role equivalent to that at Ajax or Barca, and as you say, nothing could be further from the truth.

[Beach_Red]

^ Well, maybe not his own nest, but some agents did pretty well here for a while. Was upper management fooled, or did they turn a blind eye? They're all still here, I suppose someone could ask them.

[trane]

Personally I felt fooled by managment sometime in year two, I just felt that they had not clue, and did not realy care. I turn I starded feeling at odds with other supporters, because of their loyality to managment.

I gave Mo a chance, and Carver a chance, and then I realized that this is not Milan, that the managemnt was new at running a football club, and yet they had the arrogance of being sucessfull in business terms.

[FCC]

Winter doesnt want to be here! He wants to be fired and paid out and mgmt wants him to quit. Its a chess match.
Winter has the team practicing a certain formation during the week leading up the game and then changes the formation prior to game start. No one knows whos playing where and with who until the night before the game. Not to mention players being placed in positions that they do not play. The players do what theyre told to do but there is absolutely no direction or game plan. He makes things up on the spot and throws the team off. its not the car swerving of course its the driver.

[Oldtimer]

Winter doesnt want to be here! He wants to be fired and paid out and mgmt wants him to quit. Its a chess match.
Winter has the team practicing a certain formation during the week leading up the game and then changes the formation prior to game start. No one knows whos playing where and with who until the night before the game. Not to mention players being placed in positions that they do not play. The players do what theyre told to do but there is absolutely no direction or game plan. He makes things up on the spot and throws the team off. its not the car swerving of course its the driver.

Source?

[ExiledRed]

Winter doesnt want to be here! He wants to be fired and paid out and mgmt wants him to quit. Its a chess match.
Winter has the team practicing a certain formation during the week leading up the game and then changes the formation prior to game start. No one knows whos playing where and with who until the night before the game. Not to mention players being placed in positions that they do not play. The players do what theyre told to do but there is absolutely no direction or game plan. He makes things up on the spot and throws the team off. its not the car swerving of course its the driver.

This theory is entirely plausible, but unprovable.

If it is true, then both Winter and MLSE are as spineless as they come.

[FCC]

Inside source

[ExiledRed]

Inside source

I believe you, only because it supports my own theories, and everything you said rings true.

You are about to be mauled for coming on here with 7 posts and claiming an inside source however. good luck.

[Brooker]

So Winter is purposely fucking with his players heads and trying to lose so that he can go home?

Lol.. This place, man...

[Canary10]

I believe you, only because it supports my own theories, and everything you said rings true.

You are about to be mauled for coming on here with 7 posts and claiming an inside source however. good luck.

I think you impugned your credibility here just a bit.

I believe you because it supports my theory and it sounds right? Come on. I've heard creationists in Alabama put forth more credible arguments for talking evolution of out of text books.

[Shakes McQueen]

I believe you, only because it supports my own theories, and everything you said rings true.

LOL. This is almost signature-worthy. "I choose to believe what you say, as it supports my own belief".

As for FCC, he doesn't deserve to be "mauled", but nor does every registered user here with less than 10 posts who claims to have an inside source deserve instant credibility. We've had plently of of people on here claim to know about things that were happening, only for them not to happen. As it stands now, we are basically being asked to believe an anonymous source's anonymous source.

- Scott

[trane]

Winter doesnt want to be here! He wants to be fired and paid out and mgmt wants him to quit. Its a chess match.
Winter has the team practicing a certain formation during the week leading up the game and then changes the formation prior to game start. No one knows whos playing where and with who until the night before the game. Not to mention players being placed in positions that they do not play. The players do what theyre told to do but there is absolutely no direction or game plan. He makes things up on the spot and throws the team off. its not the car swerving of course its the driver.

De Ro is this you?

[trane]

LOL. This is almost signature-worthy. "I choose to believe what you say, as it supports my own belief".

As for FCC, he doesn't deserve to be "mauled", but nor does every registered user here with less than 10 posts who claims to have an inside source deserve instant credibility. We've had plently of of people on here claim to know about things that were happening, only for them not to happen. As it stands now, we are basically being asked to believe an anonymous source's anonymous source.

- Scott

Judges often comment on testimony, having the "ring of truth", meaning that it seems plausible and/or likely in light of the overall facts of a case. I think that for Exiled, in light of his view of winter, it has the ring of truth.

[ExiledRed]

I think you impugned your credibility here just a bit.

I believe you because it supports my theory and it sounds right? Come on. I've heard creationists in Alabama put forth more credible arguments for talking evolution of out of text books.

I was trying to point out that I believe him, but offering an honest disclaimer as to why that doesnt make it immediately credible.

Most people believe the things they are told, if they support their own theories and I was acknowleding that. Sorry for being objective.

[ExiledRed]

LOL. This is almost signature-worthy. "I choose to believe what you say, as it supports my own belief".

As for FCC, he doesn't deserve to be "mauled", but nor does every registered user here with less than 10 posts who claims to have an inside source deserve instant credibility. We've had plently of of people on here claim to know about things that were happening, only for them not to happen. As it stands now, we are basically being asked to believe an anonymous source's anonymous source.

- Scott

That quote would be a distortion of what I said. I dont automatically believe he has an inside source, but the claims support my own theories and I find them believable.

You're smarter than this.

[Canary10]

I was trying to point out that I believe him, but offering an honest disclaimer as to why that doesnt make it immediately credible.

Most people believe the things they are told, if they support their own theories and I was acknowleding that. Sorry for being objective.

Oh, ok. You have to admit, it sounded really funny.

[Shakes McQueen]

Judges often comment on testimony, having the "ring of truth", meaning that it seems plausible and/or likely in light of the overall facts of a case. I think that for Exiled, in light of his view of winter, it has the ring of truth.

Plausibility in light of established facts, is a far cry from "plausible in light of reinforcing my own preconceptions". Being plausible in the context of your own subjective narrative, isn't the same as being true. And he didn't simply acknowledge plausibility - he said he chose to believe it.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

That quote would be a distortion of what I said. I dont automatically believe he has an inside source, but the claims support my own theories and I find them believable.

You're smarter than this.

You didn't say they were believable, you said you believed him. And what I quoted was essentially a faithful paraphrasing of what you said, minus the "and it rings true" part, which as I explained to trane above, is irrelevant.

If that isn't what you meant to say, then that's fine. I accept your clarification. But it's what you wrote.

- Scott

[trane]

^ I am not saying it is plausible, but why Exiled may find it plausible.

[Shakes McQueen]

Most people believe the things they are told, if they support their own theories and I was acknowleding that.

Most people? Maybe. Choosing what to believe based on whether it reinforces your own beliefs and opinions doesn't become a valid intellectual method simply because "most people" do it though.

In your exact words this time: You're smarter than this. You've previously demonstrated it.

- sScott

[ExiledRed]

Most people? Maybe. Choosing what to believe based on whether it reinforces your own beliefs and opinions doesn't become a valid intellectual method simply because "most people" do it though.

- sScott

Plausibility in light of established facts, is a far cry from "plausible in light of reinforcing my own preconceptions". Being plausible in the context of your own subjective narrative, isn't the same as being true. And he didn't simply acknowledge plausibility - he said he chose to believe it.

- Scott

Again, lets not make this a debate over the finer points of language and whether what I meant and how I phrased it are the same, and pretend that the two are not separable. Ive offered a clarification, that should be enough. I believe him, but because of the premise of his information, I cant use what he says to support my own assertations.
Im sure you can find a way to detail my lack of intelligence somewhat further though.

[Shakes McQueen]

Again, lets not make this a debate over the finer points of language and whether what I meant and how I phrased it are the same, and pretend that the two are not separable. Ive offered a clarification, that should be enough. I believe him, but because of the premise of his information, I cant use what he says to support my own assertations.
Im sure you can find a way to detail my lack of intelligence somewhat further though.

As I said in a small edit to one of my posts - if what you said isn't what you meant, I'm fine with that. I accept your clarification. What I took exception to was your accusation that I distorted what you actually wrote. I didn't.

And I don't think you lack intelligence, nor am I trying to detail it in any way (?). Your initial post was hilarious because it seemed startlingly, and nakedly disingenuous from an intellectual perspective, and kind of begged for a riposte from me. I actually even suspected you might have been slightly sarcastic.

But yes - it isn't what you meant, and that's fine. This isn't a tennis match, and I'm not looking to "win the point".

- Scott

[Canary10]

^ It struck me the same way, to the point where I lauged out loud at my desk. It was funny the way it was written. I understand now how it was meant. Just laugh it off.

[Carts]

[ExiledRed]

I believe you, only because it supports my own theories, and everything you said rings true.

"I choose to believe what you say, as it supports my own belief".

What I took exception to was your accusation that I distorted what you actually wrote. I didn't.

Absolutely you changed what I said by stripping the subtext and rephrasing it.

[Roogsy]

So Winter is purposely fucking with his players heads and trying to lose so that he can go home?

Lol.. This place, man...

I gotta admit...even I don't believe this one.

De Ro is this you?

I was trying to point out that I believe him, but offering an honest disclaimer as to why that doesnt make it immediately credible.

Most people believe the things they are told, if they support their own theories and I was acknowleding that. Sorry for being objective.

Funny you say this as I was thinking this about the pro-Winter crowd. There isn't a shred of evidence this guy can lead us anywhere good and yet people believe he can. What people put faith in is their own choice I suppose.

[Shakes McQueen]

Absolutely you changed what I said by stripping the subtext and rephrasing it.

As I already said - I explained to Trane why that "subtext" was irrelevant in the context of what was said.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

Funny you say this as I was thinking this about the pro-Winter crowd. There isn't a shred of evidence this guy can lead us anywhere good and yet people believe he can. What people put faith in is their own choice I suppose.

It's a different can of worms altogether. Technically if we hired any coach without first team experience to manage TFC, there wouldn't be a "shred of evidence" that he can lead us anywhere. Aside from results, there are few empirical "truths" in the quality of a manager's tactics, his substitutions, etc. It all comes down to interpretation, how you see the games subjectively, and ultimately, the results. But even then, there's a wide range of belief in how much time is enough before those results must be judged.

This isn't the same as nakedly stating that you choose to believe things based on what reinforces your own opinion. But ER didn't mean what he wrote, so it's a moot point.

We should get back to the topic at hand.

- Scott

[__wowza]

even roogsy goes out of his way to admit that winter is not trying to purposely tank the team in an attempt to get fired! FCC, i don't even believe "insider info" from people who i've met, and know on these boards. i'd expect to see our friend ms. benson posting something akin to this..