Keep Him
Scrap Him
I know the "Before and after DeRo: Interesting stats (pre-post 37 TFC games)" thread has been closed - but can we restart it and rename it: Before and after Winter's arrival: Interesting stats (pre-post 37 TFC games) - as you can easily replace Dero with Winter and come up with the same set of statistics.
Why is anybody still backing a head coach that has made the team worse since his arrival? We all complained about Preki, but statistacally the team is worse under winter!
T-boy, there are several sets of players worth looking at: There's Jacob Peterson and Dan Gargan who have no technical ability and football IQ - those players left pissed off at Winter. But why? Is it because Winter's such a horrible person, or is it because his system required them to be able to do things that they couldn't. TFC wouldn't be any better off with either of those two. Gargan's being his own hard working self in Chicago, while Peterson got released at the end of the season. Then there's Attakora - the one who supposedly had issues with Winter, but after leaving the team still insists that there was never anything between them. Then there's Alan Gordon who's issue was with our medical staff not dealing with his injury properly. Then there's Santos who never gave a fuck about anything one way or the other. And then there's Plata and Eckersley who liked it enough that they made their move here permanent. I think I'll take Plata and Eckersley wanting to come here over Peterson and Gargan leaving in a grumpy mood as an indicator of Winter's relationship with his players
I'm suddenly reminded of how at Notre Dame (in football), Charlie Weis stayed on as head coach for quite a while, even though his record was worse then his 2 predecessors.Originally Posted by T-boy
And just as I'm going through some Youtube clips, I suddenly ran into this (listen at around the 30 second mark!):I'm suddenly reminded of how at Notre Dame (in football), Charlie Weis stayed on as head coach for quite a while, even though his record was worse then his 2 predecessors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzYwaah9p68
And here's some reaction from the very notorious student section @ Notre Dame Stadium post game:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eg2Cxd4BqJI
There's no doubt in my mind that the players are behind Aron Winter.
Having seen both sides of the coin you can tell the players are backing their manager - I don't think he's done a terrible job either.
Think of it this way, we have all the parts for a super car but we haven't put it all together yet. Until this team is put together and starts clicking as one unit, we'll have hiccups, which is why, losing Frings, we lost our engine, and so, the whole unit hasn't even started up again.
More like a Hyundai that's been outfitted with a used supercharger that blew up.
Supercars have high-end parts from top to bottom. We've taken a low-end car and have pieces of a '98 Ferrari added on.
If he keeps on losing he will have to be scrapped. But at this point, he needs to be given a chance to turn it around. I always say it takes some time to evaluate fairly, which some think is a whole season, I always thought about 10 games is enough. Well he has had a season, and now he has had another five games. Has the team improved? Yes, even in this streak we have played better. Have we improved enough? Results are the bottom line, and if we are failing.
Management shuold be looking at alternatives at this point. If winter turns it around great, if not we have someone to take over quickly.
In MLS played 39 won 6. Half of those with HIS team and 3 of them against expansion teams. A shocking shocking record. Pad it out all you want with NCC games or CCL games its still dreadful. And what system continually lumps long high balls to Plata for the odd opportunity that he actually gets one only to send in a hopeful cross to DK who cannot jump more than 2 inches off the ground. He kicked the post more effectively at the weekend than the ball. Johnson isn't a runner, we have no midfield and that is the main thing that is yet to be addressed and is the cause of most of our problems. Its not the centre backs. They are under too much pressure because we have no midfield to either pressure them or take the pressure off our defence. It clearly isn't working.
This was in today's news section:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2012/...s_aron_winter/
For those on the "Keep Winter Around" bandwagon, this article outlines a pretty decent option for how he can right the ship.
And yes most TFC fans,according to this thread, still want Winter here. It's unbelievable how little Toronto people value winning anything!
Bruce Arena lost a lot of his first games. Then his team did fantastic and won the cup. Now it's at the bottom of the west. The difference? Omar Gonzalez. The reality in MLS is that your team, every team has a lot of mediocre plumbers who have defects in how they play which is why they are drawing middling or lower salaries in MLS instead of playing in the EPL. Then there are a few players, not necessarily DPs who have a massive impact in how well the team plays. Every good MLS team has them. So rather than looking at the plumbers mistakes (because every team has plumbers making similar mistakes), look at they key piece acquisition.
Note that this salary capped situation is very different from how teams are built in non-capped leagues, where you don't have these mediocre players.
The root problem with TFC is not in the coaching department, Winter is in at least the top 50% of the league, even if he is not a brilliant strategist. The root problem is in player acquisitions, where Mariner failed to get our version of Omar Gonzalez. Partly this is due to being hamstrung by Mo Johnston's contract for JDG preventing the easy solution (a DP defender), but a good manager is able to find those value gems that out-perform their salary levels. Both defenders brought in were busts, and that means that Frings needs to cover for the defense.
Frings being injured means the team would lose, just as I predicted.
Last edited by Oldtimer; 04-16-2012 at 08:22 AM.
Already addressed this, 4-3-3 obviously IS workable as SKC plays a 4-3-3 very similar to the way Toronto FC plays.but if a determination has been made that Winter’s 4-3-3 tactical approach is not workable in MLS, then a coaching change could be just the tonic that TFC needs. That said, this club notoriously suffers from instability at the management level, so there will be a certain perception of "Here we go again" if ownership decides to take this route.
Most defo agree.Instead, Toronto FC should approach the Canadian Championship like Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger usually approaches the Carling Cup in England. Make it an opportunity to blood the team's young players and the best academy prospects.
Ryan Johnson, Danny Koevermans, Torsten Frings and Milos Kocic have a seat. Keith Makubuya, Jordan Hamilton and Quillan Roberts, show us what you got. Let Jim Brennan or Danny Dichio take the coaching reigns and allow him to grow as a coach from the experience, while TFC's Winter can remain focused on meticulously preparing for each league game.
This illustrates a critical issue I have with Winter. An MLS coach needs to get the best out of the "Plumbers" as well as the DP's. While I like the idea of playing out from the back, when you have "plumber CB's" that can't pass a football, you simply can't succeed adhering to a system that requires that. If you spend some time with passing stats in the MLS chalkboards, you will see just how dreadful the numbers for distribution from the back are. That's just one of the most obvious cases, but there are others as well.
Santos was a decent player, who could always pull a pretty goal out of his ass whatever the score. Saying he 'never gave a fuck' is disingenuous, and merely convenient to your point.
Ill tell you how Ajax's embarassment treats his players:
He makes 3 panicked tactical substitions at half time and consequently has injured players limping around the pitch for over thirty minutes in the second half.
He drags them out in front of the media and makes them apologise for trying to negotiate better contracts for themselves.
He tells the media the players are crap because they're bemused by his tactics, when the media claim they are bemused by his tactics also, he tells the media that they are ignorant.
He forces players on less than 60k to play in positions they are unfamiliar with in order to try and bolster his sad parody of an interchangeable 4-3-3 system.
He couldnt motivate a dog to eat a biscuit.
Now I can see from your name that you're starry eyed over the guy, but he's not representing Ajax very well right now, and to be honest that connection has been his only real qualification. He has come here hyped as a specialist, but in reality had less first team coaching experience than Chris Cummins.
Time to wake up from this fantasy, TFC fans. You cant make the MLS capitulate to a system that it can beat with just a slight tactical adjustment, week after week after week.
So what's wrong with Bruce Arena? His team is losing. Same world class DPs, same coach, same plumbers, 95% same players. From champ to chump by losing one key player. That's why player acquisition is the key to winning (and why TFC couldn't win under Mo, no matter who was coaching). Those key players make all the difference.
TFC said last year they want to develop their own players who can play the system they want them to play.
Not only is the academy going to churn out first team players, it will also have to churn out "Plumbers"
I think until we start to see more graduates of the academy, our "plumbers" are not going to be able to execute the system properly, mainly due to the fact they have not been trained to play this system.
Do you change the system to accommodate the players? or do you change the players to accommodate the system?
I think the latter of the two, however, it's hard to find system players at the price we need.
Yes, I see what you mean. They should have spent more money on a GM with good connections to bring in better players. This is pretty much what we've been saying from the very beginning, the problem has always been further up the management chain. From the very start they hired someone with zero experience in finding players (they probably bought into the idea that his agent could do it cheaper than a real GM would have cost).
You make a good point that an MLS coach makes very little difference and given that it seems pointless to keep bringing in guys with no connection to the team who most likely leave as soon as the can.
Maybe they are still hoping that Dichio will do the job someday.
This goes against everything I believe in hiring a manager-but (Danny Dichio)
There is no logic to it other then that I would like to see someone whom I know will give it his all to turn this around. I have no reason to think he is ready. And if I was not disillusioned with the club I would never call for this, in fact I would be loudly critical. But I cannot help but to want someone I can believe in as a leader on the sideline.
I would love to see him try and right this ship. As unlikely as that may be.
Get rid of him.....I'm tired of his line-up choices and his sub choices during games.....and I have this feeling the players have tuned him out......it was a bad hiring from the start....waiting isnt going to make it better. Just my opinion
Can't comment on LA today as I'm not following the results, but I do recall Arena getting good results last year when his DP's were not available.
FIRE TOM ANSELMI.....I want, not good enough.....I want lots of things too!.......we need someone who knows football culture! http://www.mlse.com/inside_mlse/tom_anselmi_bio.aspx
Gargan is an interesting point actually. So is Nana. Both of these players we ALL thought were good players under Preki! Gargan was a bit of a hero in 2010 in fact, we all loved him! And we all thought Nana was the "next big thing" to come out of the MLS, didn't we?
And then Winter took over, and all our opinions of these two players changed overnight! So, did the players turn out to be sh!t, or did the new coach turn them sh!t?
You can definitely argue that Winter brought the worst out of these players! How can two players who we ALL thought were good MLS players, turn into a shambles in one off season? The ONLY factor that changed was that Winter was the head coach.
We can say the same about Santos - he had a great season in 2010, then along came Winter, and Santos turned into a horrible player!
Do we see a pattern here? I do!
So argueing that these players were terrible and needed cutting from the roster is actually incorrect - all these players were perfectly good MLS players under Preki, and we all loved them!
TFC fans have very short memories, and very selective memories sometimes!
How come this got merged but not the other comments that were in the thread? Someone made a good point about not wanting Dichio to become Spinal Tap's drummer...
Anyway, I would also like to see Dichio coach the team, but only if they also brought in a proper GM/President. This organization has a history of hanging out front line guys to dry while execs remain unscathed and I'd hate for that to happen to Dichio.
What I have said from early last season - you change your tactics to suit the players at your disposal and shift towards the system you want as the players become available. I'm not in favor waiting for Academy players to come through so that TFC can start looking like a competent team.
Waiting on the Academy rests on two false hopes.
1)That the academy will turn out a first team full of players
2)That it will do it in short order.
On point one, virtually no academy is going to do this.
On point two, even if it does, I think we need 5-10 years before it happens on any level. I say that number as it is pretty well accepted (by our coaching staff included) that you need to get the player from a young age and train them up through the ranks that way. Polishing a 16 year old is only going to get you so far.
The other thing is - the fan base is bleeding out - fast. I don't think this club has a few years to wait on the Academy.
No decent coach would want to come he knowing they'd be FIRED before even getting chance...Winter must be given the rest of the season and then evaluated....Also I know our CBs aren't great but our BIGGEST PROBLEM is attack!!! 2 goals in 5 games????
My Gosh, the amount of 80's references on this board is unreal! We need to have some sort of daily limit on this shit!
Anyways, to answer the first part of the question, that was my miss. As I was merging, the other posts came in. Didn't see them otherwise i would've merged them.
All good points, but you don't have to wait 5-10 years to get a bench player from the youth system in. Only takes a couple years to groom an 18 year old who then gets groomed as a bench/reserve player to move to the first team.
If you want to blame winter for anything, it has to be Player management.
One example of this is playing Plata as a starter. The guy is clearly a super sub who should be brought in once the defense is tired.
Under Preki our defenders had one job. Put your foot through the ball. Force a limited player to play a more complex and more demanding system, and those players start making more mistakes. Take away the defensive block in the midfield and those players are more exposed. Play 3 in the middle and a high line that is slow and unsettled, don't pressure the opposition in the midfield and watch what happens.
Also key to remember, under Preki Frei had a stand out year and saved us more often that not. We led the league in shots against by a decent margin under Preki (from what I recall), which is never the hallmark of a good defence.
I'll have to disagree with you on this, but I hope you are right. We will see next year if this is true. That's two years for the Academy in its current incarnation - so if this theroy holds we should have a whole bunch of better than standard MLS players ready to go next year.
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