This,Originally Posted by Whoop
Only coach who is knows to coach and play variation of 4-3-3 will be hired for TFC from now on,that is club philosophy that we were told by Thomas R.and Mariner during the parents TFC Academy meting last month.
Keep Him
Scrap Him
This,
Only coach who is knows to coach and play variation of 4-3-3 will be hired for TFC from now on,that is club philosophy that we were told by Thomas R.and Mariner during the parents TFC Academy meting last month.
I say we put mlse on a boat and send that boat to the centre of lake ont then set that boat on fire
winter needs 3 full season
Last edited by nascarguy; 04-15-2012 at 09:03 PM.
We can all agree there are risks either way, but to the 'scrap Winter' camp. Do you REALLY think that we will LIKELY have a better season this year OR next year if we get rid of him now?
IF he doesn't deliver (not WHEN, but IF) at the end of the season all three DP slots will be free, any MLS contracts they are stuck in they can buy out or trade for next to nothing (second round draft pick etc) If a new manager comes in he will basically be able to build the team from scratch, if they want to get really intense they can put into contracts that they want training through the winter months to 'gel' the team. They could have nothing but 'hard nosed English style' football players if they want. From what I have seen that is mostly what we produce here in Canada anyway.
Is there anyone that really thinks that THIS season could be made better by getting rid of him? The team is pretty much set, not much wiggle room in the budget to 'start fresh' and Winter is part-way done his project so it would be hard for this 'MLS style' coach people want to really do anything as far as changing things goes.
Basically what I am saying is that it seems to me that the better option is to keep him as the team may improve under him this season, it is unlikely to improve under someone else.
Two wrongs don't make a right. Pinning your hopes on a wish that he will do better but the decision is based on a distaste for more changes is a recipe for disaster. He either is or isn't the right guy for the job and if you think he is, it should be pretty easy to eloquate why.
Winter should be kept
1. Some academy players seem to be flourishing under him like Stinson and Morgan
2. What happens to Academy Vision if he's replaced with a "4-4-2 Long Ball" Englishman
3. We've looked good at home and just need Koeve or someone else to finish chances, I discount the road games since everyone in MLS sucks on the road (Except Chivas who've never had a home advantage)
4. I discount the theory that a 4-3-3 possession based high pressure team can't win in MLS since SKC seems to manage just fine
5. I'm interested to see how the team performs with a competent MLS caliber CB (Cann) and Frings are back in the fold.
6. Lets remember guys we weren't outplayed by Chivas or Columbus would we be having this conversation if the goalie hadn't cleared the line, or Emory not had a brain hemorrage.
7. Winter has shown great tactics and tactical flexibility in the past something that's needed in MLS I mean the 3-4-3 shouldn't have worked as well as it did, nor should using Henry as a fullback to cover Brek Shea in the Dallas game.
Edit: the point is moot anyway considering that they aren't firing Burke or Colangelo who have had more time and less success
Last edited by Dkolish3; 04-15-2012 at 09:08 PM.
Nothing of the sort. If to you "supporting the team" means mindlessly going to games and cheerleading the management and players regardless of the consistently horrible results, then i would suggest that "supporter" doesnt mean what you think it means. But I really am too tired of having the same discussion over and over. Winter should go. That's where I'll leave it, and you can debate whether I'm being un-supportive if you like. Enjoy the short season.
Fire him.
Hate firing managers but he has shown me what kind of manager he is.
First off, in my honest opinion, hiring him in the first place was a big mistake. TFC wanted to set up a new system and plan, so what do they do? They hire a manager with no experience and no proven winning record. When you hire a manger like him, you can't tell if he will be a success or a failure. Well, as of now he's proven to be a poor manager. IF they wanted this new whole set up to work, they should've hire an experienced manager with a good record, not one who has never in his life experienced managing a team, on top of that REBUILD a team. How does he know this "rebuild" will work? Has he done it before? Ridiculous to ask someone to rebuild a team without ever even managing one.
His record is another reason he should go. I honestly can't believe so many people are backing up a guy with what? 6 wins in 40 games? Sounds like a real keeper. This guy continually played the same poor players ( Harden, Dunfield ) over and over, refuses to change the 4-3-3 formation thats CLEARLY not working, he only makes straight swap substitutions ( this guy can't even take out a defender when we're losing with a couple of mins left, unbelievable ) and also given away some of our prospects and last years MVP.
So wheres the part that we should keep him? Does he have a proven record that he's a manager that gets wins? Has he shown signs that things will turn around?
0-5 start, 2 goals in 5 games, 3 home losses, lost to an expansion team. All this with virtually the same team from last season. So no excuse about "this team is not used to each other" crap.
Get a manager with experience and a proven record, at least TRY to save this season. It honestly can't get any worse. Just admit that this "system" was doomed from the start "once a certain person named Klinsmann, who ironically also picked the U.S Olympic team's manager, he really knows how to pick the best ones..."
I hope things will change, and I will eat my words, but I sadly don't see it happening. Heck I'm hoping for this "total football". We can barely create chances
The incredible thing is that among all the posts in favour of keeping him, the great majority have the reason for doing so as "it can't get worse". Wow...that's some ringing endorsement.
Jeff just boiled it down to this very simple point: Shouldn't we TRY to save the season? It seems far too many are willing to have a repeat of 2011.
Last edited by Roogsy; 04-15-2012 at 09:20 PM.
Bang on Roogsy!
He IS the man for the job because:
He has turned out some good boys from the Academy.
He brought in a couple of very good DP's
IMO 4-3-3 CAN work in MLS, and you don't need 'stars' to do it. IIRC there is a team in the MLS that is doing it pretty well... oh RIGHT, that team that has gone 6-0 so far...
He is a handsome man. <- Gotta count for something.
The contracts are actually with MLS, not each team, so they can't make the changes you suggest (too bad, because it is a good idea).
As for results from a different coach, sure why not? Happens all the time. Sure, it probably happens just as often that the results don't improve but it's not a given.
But the big problem with this team is, who would decide to change the coach? Is there anyone in the front office who really knows the team well enough to know if the coach is doing a good enough job? This isn't like the St. Louis Blues where the GM made the change because of coaching personality and the effect he felt it would have on the players. Maybe Mariner could have some input on that but it's unlikely he has the authority to call for a coaching change.
It comes down to Anselmi and he's not going to make a change until, as Ensco points out, season ticket renewals are going out and he needs a story.
This SG boards are a very different world though, a straw poll of independent fans would give you a much harsher assessment of Winter believe me
I believe you. I have previously pointed out this strange supporters group phenomenon that is the opposite of what you'd expect from SGs.
We have no guarantee that style change ( Nicol ) will make TFC instant success. Winter may not have been logical choice to start with, but by now he should have his feet wet, and my preference is to continue with the experiment. I am excited with Soolsma and Plata development, as well as RJ and Silva progress, hell even Avila looked decent. I would like AW to be better motivator though to instill winning attitude.
Ya, I would HATE to make it to the CONCACAF quarter finals again. What a disaster that was...
As for 'ringing endorsement' that is unfair in that I think you are overstating what people are saying.
What I am hearing/reading is basically the same thing I wrote about with risk management. There are risks either way, keeping him is near in-arguably the less risky move.
I can't for the life of me imagine an argument that would reasonably say that it is less risky to get rid of him.
Well I'm not going to criticize, personally it doesn't surprise me at all, I completely understand their reaction. Supporters are supposed to have faith and hope, unfortunately I think its in the wrong guy.
you're not very imaginative
My wife, who couldn't care less about football gave me a bit of a pep-talk today. She said 'so what if TFC lose, you get to go to soccer games with your son who loves them and goes nuts for them'
And you know what, she is right. Everything after that is gravy for me.
I love soccer, I think the only 'bad' game I saw TFC play this season was in Montreal and teams have off games.
How electric was the SL game here? I thought the stadium was going to blow up when we scored. Those are the moments we live for.
Through thick and thin, Toronto Til I Die!
Oh, and yes, I AM a fucking cheerleader so go fuck yourselves if you actually think that is a bad thing or derogatory in ANY way, I will cheer in the rain, snow, scorching heat and wind-bitten cold.
So then explain to me how it is less risky to get rid of him now and get a new manager.
I voted fire. I think they need to give him 3 or 4 games still, but if it gets as bad as 0-8 or 0-9, I don't see realistically how he can stay. As for all those saying we need to stick with the 4-3-3, I don't think the team should be married to any formation, particularly one that's not working.
A system is far more than the formation on the pitch. KC do not play the 4-3-3 the way we do (at least not last year). Here is a good article comparing our version and theirs:
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/articl...raditional-set
An interesting quoteThe traditional three-forward arrangement with wingers is all about supplying balls initially to the men out wide, asking them to move possession forward. Kansas City, however, are more about long balls into Bunbury, who looks for teammates out wide making runs inside.
You're right, they will always do the less risky thing. This is not a bold, "go big or go home," organization. This is not a team that will ever make the gutsy move. They'll hire a consultant and look at reports and analyse their options and make the safe choice.
You are entitled to your opinion, but supporters have every right to voice their displeasure with an organization that has remarkably eclipsed their own previous record of futility this season.
Our fan base has been financially exploited and emotionally abused like no other fan base in the history of the league since the inception of the franchise.
At this point, should the negative reaction come as a surprise?
I actually think we have the most patient fan base in the league, given the circumstances.
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 04-15-2012 at 09:54 PM.
Super honestly, no offense intended here.
Go, torrent the LAG/RSL/DCU games and you will see they basically play a VERY similar game as TFC plays except they find the back of the net.
EDIT: I mean the SKC games vs: LAG/RSL/DCU
Last edited by Abou Sky; 04-15-2012 at 10:09 PM.
I do think Winter should be fired. But if Anselmi and Beirne aren't fired with him it may be totally pointless. If the Rollins article about the dysfunctional management team are true I think it might make it hard to even properly point fingers.
One thing I certainly do believe is that if you think the people running the team aren't up to the job, it is more beneficial to get the new management team in place as soon as possible. Let them get to work on fixing this mess.
I'm undecided on keep vs fire, although I lean towards fire. I want to see 3 -5 more games first. If the results don't turn by then I want him gone. I don't subscribe to the keep him around mentality if it's not working. Stability only works if you are building on something that is progressing in the right direction. Keeping an under performer around is pointless.
My biggest concern about Winter though is this whole thing sounds like another version of MoJo's 5 year plan. Think about what Winter has said so far.
-He was clear that last year was a rebuilding year, and that results would be bumpy. He also said that playoffs were very much a target. It was never a goal to throw the year away to gut team but that is what happened.
-He then said that last year was the rebuild, and we'd be competitive this year, and by year three we wouldn't be just going for the playoff's, we'd be going to win it. Then a while later he started talking about how playoffs in year two might be too early.
-He told us at the supporters town hall that TFC would be competitive, with a settled roster by MLS first kick this year, and well, we are 0-0-5 - our worst start ever.
Do I think another manager could get more out of this team? Yes. Winters problem is the old square peg/round whole issue. We don't have the players that are needed to make his system work. yet he continues to try. I actually do think we have a squad capable of being a mid-table MLS team. Pack the midfield, play a direct game, and we'd be better than we are today. It wouldn't be the most appealing style to watch, but neither is our "possession based" 4-3-3 where we don't actually manage to keep possession. There are also all the rumors about the rift between him and Mariner, with Winter favoring his set of player over Mariners, which could explain some of the questionable player selections.
Agreed on all points.
I'm down with this.
I'm willing to see what he does for the next 5 games. If TFC don't turn it around...well...if you thought I freaked out when DeRo got shipped out you ain't seen nuthin yet!
One thing though...TFC need a MINIMUM of 7 points from the next 5 games. That means 1 win and 4 draws or 2 wins and 1 draw. Anything less and we fall even further behind in our goal to reach the playoffs and it slips even further away. Remember, at this point we need 1.55 points per game average meaning BETTER than 1 win every other game.
Last edited by Roogsy; 04-15-2012 at 10:50 PM.
to those suggesting that we should replace Winter with Rongen, I disagree. Rongen was brought in to manage the youth development. It's one of his strengths. Let him do that job. If you move him, have fun finding someone else who understands youth development who's willing to come here. I think so far Winter's biggest downfall has been crappy player selection, not the system, or the training. IMO if Winter is fired, we should promote De Klerk. He clearly has a lot of knowledge of the system, pressure, movement, ect. He already runs the drills (and like I said, training doesn't seem to be the problem), and he seems to be a lot more energetic, and more of a motivator.
Didn't vote in this one:
- Can't make up my mind oh weighing the good, the bad, and the ugly to make a decision on the matter.
- I do believe that Winter will be fired by management if he remains winless up until the 8th game mark.
Winter is very lucky that he doesn't have a player coming out and creating controversy or he would REALLY be in trouble.
Another point on my mind:
- Its not that i'm against the 4-3-3 formation, however i'm very mad that Winter hasn't adapted it to MLS play. Such as Sporting Kansas City, to be fair though Sporting Kansas City has much better players at there disposal then we do (in my opinion)
Everyone knows I'm not a fan of Winter. End of story for me.
I'll support TFC till I die, but I can't support Winter, he hasn't shown any ability to improve the team so far, is totally inflexible in terms of his vision for the club and tactics, and appears to fall out of favour with players like brothers and sisters squabbling. His mana management skills are zero, and he can't keep players happy for anything - they all leave and complain about him and TFC, and then go on to be better players.
If TFC were in any other league in the world, we would have been relegated last season, and we would be bottom of the second division already this season - he would be fired in any other league in the world. Why should it be any different in the MLS.
Winter out for me.
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