Keep Winter or Scrap Him?

[ensco]

This question is academic, Winter will resign before he is scrapped.

Winter knows he's underperforming even if you guys dont.

omg I thought it would be 100 years until I saw you here again .... !!

We agreed on this last year and I agree 100% with this now btw .... Winter has to be pretty worried about what is happening to his resume right now. It'd be smart to precipitate a crisis so that he has a story to tell the next potential employer.

In fact here's how it'll happen - the day after the sale closes, Winter will go to the new ownership and say "give me 100% control today (ie fire Mariner, Cochrane and maybe Beirne) or I'm out." They'll say no, and he'll skedaddle faster than you can say "Ruud Gullit"

[DangerRed]

Fine, I'll be the first to say it: sack him and do it now. Winter has had a LONG time to learn on the job, which he shouldn't have been allowed in the first place. Now, his inability to learn and adjust to this league is about to cost us another season, and we're not even in May yet.

If you're saying it's too early for this poll, you've not been watching closely. Winter should be replaced with someone with deep MLS experience who would be either able to yet again make major changes to the squad - including, without a doubt, the DPs - or who'd be able to extract gold from the shit mine which we currently call our starting 11.

An 0-5 start is inexcusable given how much time Winter has had here. It's even less so when you consider this is a parity-skewed league.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

where would you find this deep experienced mls coach? just asking
also experience doesnt necessarily mean good results

[DangerRed]

where would you find this deep experienced mls coach? just asking
also experience doesnt necessarily mean good results

Yes, you're right. But inexperience almost ALWAYS has meant poor results in this league. As for where you find a coach like this, with the right size of pay cheque, anything is possible.

[Ajax TFC]

hypothetical question: if Winter gets fired, do we hire a coach with a similar vision, or do we scrap it all and go back to traditional coaches? Personally I think we should hire a coach with a similar vision, because I strongly think the Dutch system can work in MLS. I think most of our losses so far can be attributed to poor personnel selection in the defense and especially the midfield. The fact that he selects Dunfield and Harden for every game is a strike against him, but doesn't automatically mean his system is crap.

What do you think? If we get to the point where something has to go, do we scrap just the coach, or do we scrap the entire system and culture that they've worked to build as well?

[tfc2008]

I hope that aron do the best for him self and leave this crap,there is no onetrainer who can make a team here in toronto.
aron is a good trainer stupped for him he choice the wrong city, toronto isnt a soccer city.
aron wat you gone do goodluck but dont let your name make bad because your in toronto.
hopfully i see you back with off a good european team are a good mls team.

[jaxul]

Keep him. No coach would do much better with the current personnel available to him. Let him finish the year.

[nickio]

I think its more than just Winter. This will speak about the organization that is TFC if they fire him and break the promise.

I have seen what his team can do and how well they can play, now it's about making it consistent and getting the right people in place. It's still a work in progress, but what we have now is Much MUCH better than same time last year, despite the result.

[Roogsy]

I think its more than just Winter. This will speak about the organization that is TFC if they fire him and break the promise.

I have seen what his team can do and how well they can play, now it's about making it consistent and getting the right people in place. It's still a work in progress, but what we have now is Much MUCH better than same time last year, despite the result.

Break what promise? How about the promise they made to us about having the best front office in the league? I'd say keeping that promise supersedes whatever promise you are referring to.

As for your statement that what we have now is "better than same time last year"...you realize that what we had last year was what Winter/Mariner had put together. If you compare the results to what we had under Preki or Carver...then we are no further ahead and in fact somewhat worse.

[Roogsy]

An 0-5 start is inexcusable given how much time Winter has had here. It's even less so when you consider this is a parity-skewed league.

The sad thing is that from what I can see on this board, apparently it IS excusable.

I think Toronto fans pay lipservice to excellence but when it comes down to doing what needs to be done, there isn't the stomach for it. Hence our lack of championships.

[Roogsy]

Haha I take your point but I care very little about every one of those tournaments.

Why? Because you're Canadian and don't care about the US Open Cup even though it's 10x the tournament the NCC is?

Or the Superliga, which in it's short run was arguably considered more prestigious than CONCACAF's previous version of the Champions League?

The point? Steve Nicol won both. He...unlike us, has beaten Mexican teams en route to doing so.

His record? 112-108-81...I believe that is considered a winning record.

His New England Revolution reached the playoffs 8 years in a row including 4 finals appearances, until these last two years when his time appeared up. He is 4th in all-time MLS wins.

But no...that resumé is hardly impressive up against an academy coach for a big club with no senior team experience, now THAT's impressive.





Gawd...year 6 and not only do we not even have HALF of that success....we're not anywhere near it. But he wouldn't be good enough for this club. The guy who led us to our worst year since expansion despite having a league MVP and a Designated Player on the roster...he is obviously much better suited.

This town drives me nuts.

[tfc2008]

Better make a forum:


Keep the front office are crap them,because there sit the big problem and not with the coach.

[starter]

Give him at least one more year. The personnel he is got IMO is below league median, and it is taking longer than expected to sort out. I am surprised that Mariner not bringing in more talent though. Having 3 DPs may also leave less cash for signings of more Soolsmas, Platas, and RJs.
AW wants to turn this team into contenders, not just average MLS team, his way. I trust he knows what to do better than anybody here does, no offense.
Regarding team selection, who but him knows best who is fitter, and has better attitude on any single day, so we may wonder why, but that is about it.

[Roogsy]

Give him at least one more year. The personnel he is got IMO is below league median, and it is taking longer than expected to sort out. I am surprised that Mariner not bringing in more talent though. Having 3 DPs may also leave less cash for signings of more Soolsmas, Platas, and RJs.
AW wants to turn this team into contenders, not just average MLS team, his way. I trust he knows what to do better than anybody here does, no offense.
Regarding team selection, who but him knows best who is fitter, and has better attitude on any single day, so we may wonder why, but that is about it.

Replace "AW" with "MoJo” and it's deja vu.

[starter]

Replace "AW" with "MoJo” and it's deja vu.

AW is an outsider, hi subscribes to the leading ideas, and he just may eventually deliver. On the other end, we change a coach and start moving personnel again, and will be further away from a product, and meanwhile will be listening to new excuses why we are not there yet.

[Azerban]

This question is academic, Winter will resign before he is scrapped.

Winter knows he's underperforming even if you guys dont.

I honestly can't remember the last time a coach of a sports team has gone 'Yeah, I've done a real shit job here. Damn. Fucked this right up. So I'm just going to quit. Oh, that giant bonus I'd get if you fired me instead? I'd hate to take all that money with me when I go, you could really use it to help repair my mistakes. No problem, my pleasure.'

[Roogsy]

AW is an outsider, hi subscribes to the leading ideas, and he just may eventually deliver. On the other end, we change a coach and start moving personnel again, and will be further away from a product, and meanwhile will be listening to new excuses why we are not there yet.

And if he doesn't deliver? What evidence is telling you he may yet deliver? The 1 win in 9 games?
The league-worst ppg, gpg & goal difference? How much worse can another coach do? In his 2nd year he still has a record worse than most expansion clubs in their FIRST year!

What I see in your post is another person buying into the marketing of "total football" this club has pushed since his arrival.

[Azerban]

AW is an outsider, hi subscribes to the leading ideas, and he just may eventually deliver. On the other end, we change a coach and start moving personnel again, and will be further away from a product, and meanwhile will be listening to new excuses why we are not there yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_co...k_cost_fallacy

[Whoop]

If Winter is fired I think Thomas Rongen steps in, not Steve Nichol.

[Roogsy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_co...k_cost_fallacy

I've been looking for the definition of this fallacy all week! Thanks man

[DangerRed]

The sad thing is that from what I can see on this board, apparently it IS excusable.

I think Toronto fans pay lipservice to excellence but when it comes down to doing what needs to be done, there isn't the stomach for it. Hence our lack of championships.

I think I have done what I could have and I voted with my wallet. Even though Winter called me personally on Rememberance Day to tell me it'll all be better, I didn't renew my tickets. I've not been to BMO once this season so far and won't be attending a match until next month for a friend (likely my only one this year).

I believe firmly that if you stop settling for bullshit, they will stop trying to sell it to you. I also realize I have no direct impact on whether Winter stays or goes. So I do what I can. I dont spend and I complain. I'll always love the club but I really don't like what has happened to it since the last game of the 2009 season. We were on the verge of the playoffs. Instead of making them, we've lost all foreseeable chance of making them.

We should all be furious. I don't understand why some people around here continue to insist that that is unreasonable.

[ManUtd4ever]

I was of the opinion that a managerial change at this juncture would likely be counter productive for a couple of reasons; it is premature, and it's unlikely that a quality coaching candidate would be available to immediately step in and fill the void. That being said, it can't get any worse than 0-5 and 3 consecutive shutouts on home soil, so I can certainly understand the sentiment to push for a coaching change sooner rather than later.

[iy12l]

Why? Because you're Canadian and don't care about the US Open Cup even though it's 10x the tournament the NCC is?

Or the Superliga, which in it's short run was arguably considered more prestigious than CONCACAF's previous version of the Champions League?

The point? Steve Nicol won both. He...unlike us, has beaten Mexican teams en route to doing so.

His record? 112-108-81...I believe that is considered a winning record.

His New England Revolution reached the playoffs 8 years in a row including 4 finals appearances, until these last two years when his time appeared up. He is 4th in all-time MLS wins.

But no...that resumé is hardly impressive up against an academy coach for a big club with no senior team experience, now THAT's impressive.





Gawd...year 6 and not only do we not even have HALF of that success....we're not anywhere near it. But he wouldn't be good enough for this club. The guy who led us to our worst year since expansion despite having a league MVP and a Designated Player on the roster...he is obviously much better suited.

This town drives me nuts.

Steve Nicol isnt a good coach and mls was really different at the time when he was winning titles. Aron Winter is a good coach its just that he has shit players or guys that dont do shit. Our backline has improved once cann came and with Doneil coming on. The real problem now is our midfield, but the good thing is that Frings is back so Dunfield can go back to the bench. There are report with TFC linked to Javi Calleja and if it is true this can really boost our midfield and he good at defending too. Anyways, i dont think Nicols would do anything with our youth academy, or youth academy graduates.

[Rene Kingsriver]

If Winter is fired I think Thomas Rongen steps in, not Steve Nichol.

Yes! my friend said the same thing and it makes complete sense. Bring in Rongen, initially till the end of the season, he'll keep the same "system" but has the MLS experience and even a Cup to his name. I think he's also a far better communicator and man manager than Winter

[Rene Kingsriver]

Steve Nicol isnt a good coach and mls was really different at the time when he was winning titles. Aron Winter is a good coach its just that he has shit players or guys that dont do shit. Our backline has improved once cann came and with Doneil coming on. The real problem now is our midfield, but the good thing is that Frings is back so Dunfield can go back to the bench. There are report with TFC linked to Javi Calleja and if it is true this can really boost our midfield and he good at defending too. Anyways, i dont think Nicols would do anything with our youth academy, or youth academy graduates.

Aaaagh! just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true, where is your evidence!

[Beach_Red]

I was of the opinion that a managerial change at this juncture would likely be counter productive for a couple of reasons; it is premature, and it's unlikely that a quality coaching candidate would be available to immediately step in and fill the void. That being said, it can't get any worse than 0-5 and 3 consecutive shutouts on home soil, so I can certainly understand the sentiment to push for a coaching change sooner rather than later.

The way MLS contracts work it's unlikely there will be many significant roster changes during this season. The 3 DPs will remain and there really isn't much cap space for more signings, is there? So, it'll be these players or a few trades within MLS bringing in other players at about the same calibre.

So, the question is, could a different coach get better results with essentially the same roster? What is Danny Dichio doing these days?

[starter]

And if he doesn't deliver? What evidence is telling you he may yet deliver? The 1 win in 9 games?
The league-worst ppg, gpg & goal difference? How much worse can another coach do? In his 2nd year he still has a record worse than most expansion clubs in their FIRST year!

What I see in your post is another person buying into the marketing of "total football" this club has pushed since his arrival.

Well, it is hard to defend the record, but if history is any guide we did not make the playoffs under any previous coaches, did we?
The change TFC undergoing is more drastic than before, and I would like to believe the story behind it.
On "throwing good money after bad", investment gurus are split between cutting your losses and doubling down, it all depends if your glass is half-full?

[Roogsy]

Your post makes a substantial leap in logic. You say his record is hard to defend but previous coaches didn't make the playoffs so that's the reason why you think he will deliver?

[starter]

My point is that if we change coaches and more importantly, style again we will be further away from the finished product.

[nfitz]

We should all be furious. I don't understand why some people around here continue to insist that that is unreasonable.

I don't understand why some people around here continue to point out that they don't support the team, don't go to games, don't intend to go to games - and yet this is a supporters group.

Isn't that kind of like hanging around around the Young Liberals discussion group and saying that you should vote Conservative?