Gawd I wish people would get this.Originally Posted by trane
When did it become accepted that you have to be absolute shit in order to rebuild? Or that it takes 2 years in MLS? All the evidence in the world can't dispell these untruths apparently.
Keep Him
Scrap Him
Gawd I wish people would get this.
When did it become accepted that you have to be absolute shit in order to rebuild? Or that it takes 2 years in MLS? All the evidence in the world can't dispell these untruths apparently.
I agree, trane. The Caicedo thing really bugs me because he was a quality player.
Toronto FC baby...best team everrrrrrrrrr -Jozy
@roogsy - I have no idea what your agenda is actually. If I think about it rationally, you have no faith in the management of the team. You have no faith in the ownership, either in its ability to build a winner or its treatment of the fans. You really don't value the players we have. And you choose to discuss all of this on a website that exists to promote the charter of an organization that you no longer have faith in (to be a member).
All valid on their own and hell, I even agree with you in some instances. Put them all together though and it just puzzles me as to what you really get out of this.
But back on topic, as for the results till present, yep, I'm pretty proud of what the team accomplished in the CCL. As for the MLS season, I'll wait to see how that plays out because the alternative is a toss of the coin on some other coach with a losing record and a plan that would have to be ok'd by Anselmi. I'll take Kilinsmann's plan with Winter implementing it over a strategy based on hope.
Not sure about you but I was cheering my ass off for the boys against LA and that Santos game was one of the best I've ever seen. I'm happy to cut them more than 5 games of MLS slack, especially with an injury to Frings and flights to and from LA and Mexico in-between matches.
Just me though.
Last edited by Pookie; 04-17-2012 at 01:52 PM.
Roogsy and Pookie, you guys butt heads a lot and often don't see eye to eye on issues, which is cool. I strongly doubt you're ever going to convince one another of the other's point of view, but please, let's not degenerate the Winter debate into another battle that stretches across the forum and into oblivion.
Toronto FC baby...best team everrrrrrrrrr -Jozy
Well, I don't know about the others, but I'll be assessing him (and Mariner) by around July/August. There had better be an improvement by then.
My approach will be a lot more thorough than what you've seen from most people here.
Last edited by Oldtimer; 04-17-2012 at 02:14 PM.
I agree with all of this, but I don't think win now and set up the academy need to be mutually exclusive.
Well, they don't need to be, it's just so far...
But the plan was probably to split the difference a little (they never do anything all out). They didn't hire away a top MLS coach, but they did spend money on the DPs for quick results. And they did get results, they got a CCL game at Rogers Centre and the season has really just started so they may yet get results this year.
Prove what ? And to whom ? I'm satisfied with the case for not firing Winter - he needs more time to deliver the goods. The Academy has begun to provide decent graduates (Henry, Morgan) and will continue to do so. In the meantime he's working on solidifying the back (without much success, granted) and bringing in players who are already familiar with his system (not many of those in MLS)..... To expand on the point that there aren't many players capable of playing the style Winter is bringing in, the Academy was necessary. Grow and develop that which you can't find elsewhere.Because they can't prove their case. Credulity is hard to defend.
a ha ha heh he hoo.. ha
Gawd why can't you get this?
Why is champions league not factored into this?
why do you believe that with our number 1 goalie, starting CB and our team captain injured for all of these games but we should still be number 1 in a salary capped league GAWD what are we Real Madrid?We should their kind of depth GAWD
Roogsy, you are great stats guy and can make a great argument based on stats, but I would never trust you to manage a team. Your soccer sense doesn't always seem to factor into any of your arguments.
Firing a coach in a situation like this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It reminds me of last season when people on this same message board were sucking the dick of the Vancouver whitecaps for being such an amazing franchise and praising them for being so much better than TFC.
Then they fired their coach at the start of the season and still finished in 18th spot...
Numbers do not lie, but they do not tell the whole truth. Sentiment, at least here, is still behind AW, meaning deeper rooted expectations, and belief that performance will improve.
Um...CL was indeed factored into it. If it weren't for CL, the numbers were are even worse. As a whole, they're bad, without CL, the case for Winter to be gone almost stands on it's own.
It's also disingenuous of you to portray the praises Vancouver got as somehow being exclusive to their performance numbers alone. Despite finishing in 18th spot, Vancouver were a very competitive team. Despite being an expansion team, they went out and got a DP, something we didn't get till our 3rd (and a half) year.
Praising a first year team for some moves (and you are also ignoring that many of us were absolutely critical of the firing of TT) is a far different animal from being critical of a team in it's 5th or 6th year that already has a DP, had a top scoring All Star, an MVP keeper and was negligibly better than this expansion team you put down.
They had an excuse for not doing better.
We didnt.
Last edited by Roogsy; 04-17-2012 at 02:58 PM.
In was posted in relation to the quote and most quotes speaking about 0-5 - why not instead say 1-6-2?
BAM!
there it is.
Fine....because that's a whole lot better?
The reason I don't quote that number is because the 0-5 record is a factor in the result the rest of the year. The performance in the CL was great at times, at times it was not, but what it definitely is, is over and no longer factors in to anything else this year.
I factored in the CCL numbers in the overall 55 game figure. It's there. If you want me to stop using the 0-5 figure, so be it. It will continue to be the stat that shows up in our record this year. I certainly don't see the blogs, news articles and tv commentators using 1-6-2 as our record instead of 0-5. Maybe we should have a chat with them about it.
And by the way, I wouldn't hire you to manage a team either...you seem to subscribe to the MLSE "wins aren't everything" philosophy if numbers don't lie. I doubt I would do worse than an 0-5 start though...
The crazy thing about all this? How hard people are defending a guy with this record. I have no idea what he's done to generate this kind of loyalty. I guess as Mo knew very well...saying the right things does get you places. Doing them doesn't actually matter.
Last edited by Roogsy; 04-17-2012 at 03:13 PM.
Kind of like how you are drinking the ex-player kool-aid?
It ain't no kool-aid if the proof is in the pudding.
When there is no proof, that's when it's kool-aid and you're full up on it homey.
I don't think people are loyal at all. I think that some people come to snap decisions, and others take some time. Some (80%+ actually) aren't ready to throw AW off the cliff, yet.
Actually, in my view it's called being a supporter. Stick behind the team and give them the benefit of the doubt and a little bit of rope to give them a chance.
So in your eyes, being a supporter of the team in this way and giving the CURRENT players and coaching staff that rope means I'm in bed with MLSE? When does it end? when the team is sold to another owner and ex-players are vindicated?
Oldtimer and jabbronies,
How many games should he be given, how much time is enough?
Oldtimer said June. Why June? If we loss the next 4 games, why would that not be enough proof for you?
This has always killed me about this forum, and I am sorry, it has something to do with coming from a city were the last championship was won some 20 years ago, the populace is condition to wait, and wait and wait, and too keep hope alive, despite there being no real sign that the team is improving.
Again I am not saying fire Winter now, I am considering the CL, and that play overall has improved, but the overall record is what it is, and 5 straight losses in a league known for its parity,is piss poor, another loss or two, and why not fire him?
Last edited by trane; 04-17-2012 at 03:38 PM.
Not surprising that this all comes back to "I am a better supporter". If that's what the argument boils down to, by all means, pat yourself on the back for not demanding excellence but being a great superfan.
The next four games are:
Chicago
@ RSL
@ Montreal (NCC)
DCU
Certainly we need to win against Montreal and need points from the two home games.
Who said anything about being a better? Stop skewing the conversation and taking it somewhere else yet again.
Fuck call me a superfan, fanatic, a guy who really really likes TFC, fucking casual I don't care. I like TFC and what they are doing and you call me an MLSE whore.
By that logic, anyone who likes TFC, follows TFC, is ok with what TFC are doing are bent over the MLSE leg.
End of the season IF we are not in the playoffs.
otherwise he stays.
I don't see the logic is removing him now. ANY coach who comes in will start to move players and we are right back to where we were in year 1 - starting fresh!
^ Who says we do not love the club? You think that people like me and roogsy have nothing better to do but spend time on this board? I know that being on this board costs me. But I cannot help it, because I am pissed as hell that this club is not what it could and should be. I am pissed because I fell in love with this club in 2007 and it has shat on my hopes for it, pretty well all the time since.
But if we do not get points ASAP, our changes of the playoffs will be down the drain, and he would have not given us any reason to believe that he can win with the current squad, so why not get someone in who MAY be able to turn this around, and would have a better change of turning this around.
Actually the condition is to change, change, change. At the slightest hiccup the pitch forks come out and players need to go, coaches need to be fired. etc, etc.
That 80% "keep him" percentage will be 20% in 5 games if we're 2-8. Guaranteed.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
jabbronies,
That is not true, you think it is true because that is repeated by the media, but in relative terms this is a accommodating a market as it gets. Look at current Leaf management and the last two coaches, they did nothing, and it took what 3 1/2 season to fire a coach that did nothing.
Didn't work for Vancity or chicago last year. Why do you think it'll work for TFC?
That shuold be the case, but I guarantee that argument will be made that "Oh, But he is 2-3 in the past five games, and we were unlucky you have to forget the first 5 games, if that and this and the other happened, we could easily be 5-5 and that is great in this league"
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