Amazingly, every poster on this board IS a tactical genius...Originally Posted by Oldtimer
Keep Him
Scrap Him
Amazingly, every poster on this board IS a tactical genius...
This gets my coffee spit-take laugh of the day.
^ Well you do not have to be a tactical genius, to understand certain basics.
For example I was thinking about it just know. Winter, seemed to have used a 4-1-4-1 sorta/kind of, meaning 4 -1-2-3, with the wingers way back, to look like a 4-1-4-1, which on the surface is a good choice for a a team struggling at the back and to get points. BUT then when you look at the details, he plays Dunfield as the lone DM and in front of him a AM and Jonshon who is a SS/CF type player, and on the left flank another attacking player in Plata. So you chose a defensive formation but then you put in players who are not strong defenders. What is the point in that?
I want winter to succeed, but when I think of some of his decision they baffle me.
a hahaha
You don't have to be a tactical genius to know 0-5 is bad.
Or 15 wins in 55 games is bad.
Or that as the 3rd highest payroll in the league, occupying last place in the standings is bad.
But if it requires me to get my coaching license to understand the above, sign me up!
^ Roogsy, please get a coaching license or get a job as a sports writer/commentator , otherwise your opinions have no validity.
Don't get testy, guys, it was a pretty funny comment.
Toronto FC baby...best team everrrrrrrrrr -Jozy
Right... because he was the one on the pitch, missing open chances.
my problem isn't really with Winter. that's why i'd give him more time. it's the rest of the organization that's fucked. JDG is a frigging abatross. he has to go.
I kill everyone in the Toronto Sport and Social Club soccer league both technically AND tactically. Those girls never stand a chance. Don't impugn my tactical knowledge!
I won the cup with TFC on FIFA 12, and haven't lost the league in over a decade of Football Manager/Championship Manger. Alright, sign me up.
I did the same, but I also won CCL in Football Manager. You may have some competition
I agree with most of this. Too many people love bitching and complaining on this board... it's an outlet for letting off steam from their unsatisfied lives I suppose, but man, it makes shitty and unreasonable reading.
i would finish dead last this season and next before I considered firing him. i don't think people understand how bad the turnover we've had so far is for this club - an identity is worth so much more for the next decade than wins are.
almost any dynasty team (not championship, but dynasty) i can see in North American salary cap sports has the pick your guy/pick your core team/ignore the failures/ignore the criticism/eventually, you win things model. dynasties are smart and stubborn. and i'll take a guy who's hopefully a few years ahead of the MLS curve (playing a 'hard' formation for MLS teams) over one who's a few years behind any day - if i wanted 2007/2008 thinking, I'd want Nicol running a team with no DPs. and i don't want to watch that team. i'll be glad to take the risk that Winter will end up in a pile of accolades by 2014.
This is pretty close to how I feel about Winter and Co. He seems pretty good at finding players that can play his system, their training methods seem to work, he seems to get his tactics right a lot of the time, but in the end he fields the strangest choice of players. It's not just playing Dunfield and Harden in pretty much every game, it's fielding Johnson as a central midfielder, or Silva - who seems to be more of a second striker (a position not in the 4-3-3) or winger than a midfielder - and benching the likes of Avila and Burgos, who from what I've seen and heard is a forwardly thinking midfielder who can pressure and defend just as well.
Boy this is tough but I think the comments I have read for the most part are well thought out. I have been an SSH from the beginning so I have seen just about every game. There is no doubt in the last 9 months TFC is playing much more attractive football. We had great run in the Champions League under Winter. He got rid of a lot of the garbage on the team in the last 6 months. I agreed with the majority of his decisions. He had the guts to bench DeGuzman the 2 million oops! We have so many injuries down the Centre with Frings, Caan, and Decoy. He knows we have to build the academy and has brought some of the young kids into the team which is good. But I have my concerns, he does not seem to be able to evaluate back line talent. The players they have brought in at Centre back have all been huge duds. However, who is responsible for that? Is that Winter or is that Mariner? He can get a little stubborn on his tactics from time to time. Is he a good motivator? We always seem to start so slowly and play better after giving up a goal. He knows the attacking game but does he know the defensive game? I believe he deserves some more time but I was very worried about his comments after the game on Saturday. Bad luck? There is no bad or good luck. You make your own luck by being well trained and taking advantage of opportunities. TFC is not showing the quality in the last 20 yards to win games. Also despite the notion we want to play the possession game most times we are below our opponents on possession %. I believe he deserves some more time and we have to see where we are at the end of the season. Also its fine to say he should be fired but who are you going to get to replace him?
Based on MLSE's track record, there is simply no way Winter finishes dead last in the league and survives past this season. He would be gone before SSH renewals if the results were leading TFC to a last place finish.
The one thing I would like to know from the people who are still behind Winter is why? What do you see in TFC's results and play that give you belief?
I can sort of understand the people who say he deserves more time. I just fail to see what exactly he (and Mariner) are building. This team has had a pretty bad off-season in terms of player personnel moves. I don't think that gets talked about enough. It appears that the moves that were needed to improve on the late season form from 2011 weren't made.
This.
Avoid it like the plague.
You may be willing to finish dead last for the next two seasons my friend, thankfully I think you're in a minority of one which would also be the eventual attendance at BMO if that happened
Last edited by Rene Kingsriver; 04-16-2012 at 08:41 PM.
Re Why keep him:
He Is a good tactician.
4-3-3 can work in MLS
Off season not gettin rid of JDG I would bet was NOT him. So he has 1/5-1/6 of cap tied up there + DP slot.
He is molding 4-3-3 players out of the Academy that will know the system back and forth, watch Henry and Stinson this year.
He is the right man for the job, let him do it and prove you wrong.
I would agree with this also. Not much negativity directed his way after LA or the first Santos match. Seems as though picking ones spots are in vogue.
Sort of like all the DeRo updates we used to get on his goal scoring exploits. Now that he has 0 in 6, it's quiet. Until the next goal he scores of course. Timing is everything.
Cue the hastily revised valuations of player worth based on non-goal-scoring variables and other intangible, non-quantifiable bits of misinformation.
You know what's interesting about Harden? I was looking at MLS chalkboards earlier for matches this year, and overall - he has a really high pass completion rate. Like in the high 70's to high 80's (I think in one match only his pass completion rate was bad) - but after seeing that, I understand now why Winter has been selecting him.
Is he really though? Repeating this ad nauseum doesn't make it true.
It often appears that he is being out-coached and out-prepared by other supposed lesser MLS coaches.
Aren't most of his passes to his CB partner or our DM? Low risk passes?
Last edited by narduch; 04-16-2012 at 09:52 PM.
not sure what track record you're thinking of. as of recently MLSE's had a record of giving managers several years too many after they've already proven to be incompetent (ex: JFJ, MoJo, Burke - who despite putting together a decent team, has proved incapable of hiring a capable coaching staff, yet his job isn't in any jeopardy)
The Leafs are a different story. The ACC isn't half empty like BMO Field is these days, despite whatever number TFC FO wants to pull out of its ass. TFC is going to have a major SSH renewal problem if this isn't turned around quickly.
The one thing that might save Winter's ass is the fact that the sale of MLSE to Rogers/Bell won't happen until at least September.
Seems to be a mix:
http://www.mlssoccer.com/sites/all/m...lsdGVycz0xLDI=
Actually - poking through the chalkboards - Harden seems to be backed by some pretty solid stats - with the exception of one key one. He seems to get tackled and lose possession quite frequently.
It does shed some light on why Winter keeps playing Harden though.
I blame Earl Cochrane. With him, we've accomplished absolutely nothing.
Its a testament to the mess that TFC FO is that he still has a job.
How he survived the De Ro debacle is mind boggling.
Must be tight with Anselmi and Beirne.
It really is a shame how provocative you are. You're that guy in the bar fight who takes a cheap shot from the blind side and then runs behind his friends. Nobody has said boo about DeRo in this thread and here you are bringing him up. A person really has to wonder who here really has the hard-on for DeRo.
If you want, there are plenty of DeRo fans up here that can totally start a DeRo exploits thread. Including highlights of the two assists he has this year with his team, one of which was off a bicycle kick. Who has the most assists in Toronto? Our DP striker? Our AM playmakers? Our wingers?
Nope...it's the scapegoat Aceval with 1...count'em ONE, assist on the year.
I am guessing you haven't watched any DC United games this year, because if you did, you would already know DeRo has been their most dangerous player and doing that which you accused him he wasn't able to do, which is set up plays and let others score leading his team to a decent but not impressive 2-2-2 start and a positive goal differential. He just keeps proving you wrong. It must get tired being wrong so often. But he can't win can he? If he scores? All you do is call him selfish. If he sets up plays? All you do is mention how he is not scoring. I am not sure what you expect from a player of his calibre but it seems to me he is delivering and the DC fans would agree.
As for Winter, I made my viewpoints known after every game. I gave Winter credit for things I felt he deserved credit for, including beating LA and drawing Santos at home. And I wasn't negative on him for losing to Santos away. But an 0-5 league start, with 2 goals scored in 5 games and a minus 8 goal differential and more importantly increasingly lower probabilities of making the playoffs does not qualify as good enough reason to put his feet to the fire and start criticizing him? What does he have to do? Kill someone? I am sure you'd rationalize that away as well. If it were DeRo coaching this team to this record though...you'd be asking for the chair.
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