Postgame rant TFC v Chivas

[Roogsy]

For perspective, consider my late grandfather back in Portugal. A card-carrying supporter ("socio") of his local first division team, Maritimo, since he was 14. Supported them until he died at age 95. Attended home games religiously until just a few years before that when his health took a tunr for the worse. His team competed but never won a league title in his lifetime. Hard to win in a league that has 2 or 3 big teams, with massive budgets. Over the years, there were promotions and relegations. There were even the odd runs deep into the domestic cup competition, and even some appearances in European tournaments, but through it all, never any true championship-winning success. I'm sure there were many times in the 80+ years that he could of packed it in and said enough's enough, this team will never win, and throw his support behind a Benfica or a Porto. But that's not what being a supporter is about.

That's why when he passed away in 2007, the club honoured him by cloaking his coffin with the team flag during the march into the cemetary, with a 4 piece mandolin quartet playing the team's official anthem.

TFC right now is not a good team. But they are still our team. And having lived in this city for so many years without one, I am still happy to say that I have one.

Nice story but hardly applicable to TFC.

TFC is not one of the have not teams like Maritimo is. We have the THIRD highest payroll in the league. Could Maritimo ever say that? We were one of the first teams in MLS to turn a sizeable profit. We were one of the top drawing teams until Seattle came into the league and knocked us off the perch. We were the FIRST team to ever get corporate sponsorships. Etc. etc. etc.

If Toronto was a small city, no corporate money was heading it's way, and it's attendance was dwarfed by other teams, you could draw a comparison. But in every signficant way, TFC is akin to the Benficas and Portos of the Portuguese league...and you tell me how the supporters of THOSE clubs would react if they had this kind of poor performance for 6 seasons? I'd really like to hear your opinion on this.

[Ajax TFC]

my apologies: when Winter was first hired and even before, I was pretty sure that I read that he was the current assistant at Ajax. After looking into it, I found that he did indeed leave in 2009. Here's the article about his departure on the official Ajax website: http://www.ajax.nl/Nieuws/Nieuwsarch...t-bij-Ajax.htm
He wasn't fired, he left because he wanted a first team coaching job, and he left after winning the title, so no, he wasn't jobless because he's a bad coach

I also found the article about Bob De Klerk leaving Ajax if anyone's interested: http://www.ajax.nl/Nieuws/Nieuwsarch...s-avontuur.htm

BTW, a little tip before people bitch about the articles being in Dutch: Google Translate is your friend

Again, I'm sorry for not double checking my facts before stating them

EDIT: Well, at least I now know I'm not crazy, I managed to find at least one other person who states that he's a current (as of before he was hired here) assistant: http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2011/01/winter/

[Pookie]

^I don't know why so many people think that the accusation against MLSE is gouging and lack of interest in winning. They clearly benefit economically from winning teams. That is not the argument intelligent people are making.

The argument is about the corporate behaviour, generally and specifically. No suit ever pays the price, and this team has been used as a training toy to "teach" a loyal exec, Anselmi, the sports business (he has no background in soccer, or sports operations, at all). Unlike the Leafs or Raptors, it has been very clear that ultimate hire-and-fire authority rests here with a suit. Anselmi's main qualification for this job was his undiluted loyalty to Peddie, so I suspect he'll be moving along in any event.

With brings me to the real point. The new owners can't just replace Anselmi with another suit. If there is a God, he/she will whisper this, in the right person's ear, at the right time.

+1

Well put

[nfitz]

Nice story but hardly applicable to TFC.

Of course it's applicable. It's the kind of story that puts the whiny twenty-somethings in this city that jump ship at the first sign of a leak to shame. Hard to believe that only 3 home games into the season, that some here are talking about burning their tickets. The lack of perspective here is really shocking.

We're called supporters ... not bandwagoners.

[Roogsy]

And we're treated like disposable consumers. It shouldn't be a surprise when the consumer acts accordingly.

[ag futbol]

Of course it's applicable. It's the kind of story that puts the whiny twenty-somethings in this city that jump ship at the first sign of a leak to shame. Hard to believe that only 3 home games into the season, that some here are talking about burning their tickets. The lack of perspective here is really shocking.

We're called supporters ... not bandwagoners.

Come on, there's more to it than that. Do you think clubs like the one given in the example changed their fans exorbitant amount for beer, pushed them to the limit for ticket prices, forced him to buy tickets to the local minor hockey team to get a flex pack, etc..? That person who was loyal to the club for so long probably had good reason to.

There are plenty of examples throughout world football of people basically thumbing their nose at the established team and going to start their own when they didn't like how things operated. Loyalty isn't a given, it's earned.

I know this team fills a void for many people who are really looking for a local team to support, but there's more to the situation than a simple oath that says we always back up this club regardless of the way it treats the people around it.

[Azerban]

When I read that Maritimo story, all I got was the sense that it's actually kind of a sick joke that the team is called Toronto FC. Just FC. Not Football Club, because it's not a club. It's a corporate entity. Yet it manages to pull on the heart strings just enough, that for a second, or longer, you push away the awareness that it's two steps away from being the Nutralite Internazionale Toronto Northmen Brought To You By Kelloggs or being relocated to New York because they didn't meet profit expectations.

It's a little bit sad.

[MartinUtd]

When I read that Maritimo story, all I got was the sense that it's actually kind of a sick joke that the team is called Toronto FC. Just FC. Not Football Club, because it's not a club. It's a corporate entity.

haha

"Toronto Football Corporation"

It has a nice ring to it.

[Wull]

they treat it as a north american sports franchise because that's all they know. We, on the other hand, expect it to be a football club similar to the ones we or our parents and grandparents grew up with. They think it belongs to them to run as a business and treat everything in that sense, we think it'll be there long after that shower are gone and our kids and grandkids will inherit our season tickets because it's our club. Unless the league goes bust or they do something extremely stupid, I think our vision will win out in the end

[nfitz]

Come on, there's more to it than that. Do you think clubs like the one given in the example changed their fans exorbitant amount for beer, pushed them to the limit for ticket prices, forced him to buy tickets to the local minor hockey team to get a flex pack, etc..?

Oh here we go .... TFC beer prices are in line with other sports teams. It was even more expensive at the Impact game for Coors F&*$ing Light. It was about the same in Seattle. Ticket prices seem unchanged from last year. And no one was forced to buy hockey tickets. A few took up that offer ... which was discontinued after fans complained about it

I'm tired of the anti-MLSE posts that takes place around here every time things don't go well. And I'm tired of these bizarre "they are trying to screw us" tin-hat paranoia. It's a business ... what do you think is going to happen.

Watch ... now someone will accuse me again of being on their payroll ...

[MartinUtd]

I think beer might have been about $0.50 cheaper in Seattle but it was more expensive in LA for Bud Light/Corona. I remember Chicago was a good deal but that was 2008/09 (the game Ibrahim scored from that superb Johan Smith cross)

[Roogsy]

Oh here we go .... TFC beer prices are in line with other sports teams. It was even more expensive at the Impact game for Coors F&*$ing Light. It was about the same in Seattle. Ticket prices seem unchanged from last year. And no one was forced to buy hockey tickets. A few took up that offer ... which was discontinued after fans complained about it

I'm tired of the anti-MLSE posts that takes place around here every time things don't go well. And I'm tired of these bizarre "they are trying to screw us" tin-hat paranoia. It's a business ... what do you think is going to happen.

Watch ... now someone will accuse me again of being on their payroll ...

Well...someone did tweet that MLSE had planted fake fans on this website.

[billyfly]

I want a winning team. What have we won in MLS? 6 or so out of the last 20-30 games?

[Rhapido]

Nice story but hardly applicable to TFC.

TFC is not one of the have not teams like Maritimo is. We have the THIRD highest payroll in the league. Could Maritimo ever say that? We were one of the first teams in MLS to turn a sizeable profit. We were one of the top drawing teams until Seattle came into the league and knocked us off the perch. We were the FIRST team to ever get corporate sponsorships. Etc. etc. etc.

If Toronto was a small city, no corporate money was heading it's way, and it's attendance was dwarfed by other teams, you could draw a comparison. But in every signficant way, TFC is akin to the Benficas and Portos of the Portuguese league...and you tell me how the supporters of THOSE clubs would react if they had this kind of poor performance for 6 seasons? I'd really like to hear your opinion on this.

At no point did I suggest that TFC 's financial clout is comparable to Maritimo's. Clearly, the wide disparity between Maritimo and Porto doesn't exist between TFC and, say, the defending champs in LA or even NYRB. But talking about the financial wherewithal of a team in a salary capped league is especially useless, anyways.

The point was (and is) that despite decades without silverware, he continued to follow and support the team. If anyone bumped into him walking around town, he would never deny his love and support for the club. He wasn't always happy with the team's performance but his loyalty was unshakeable. Once a supporter of the team, always a supporter of the team. That was his philosophy and I think it's safe to say it's the philosophy of most footy fans outside of NA. I am certain that along the way, there were plenty of times when my grandfather disagreed with the coach's decisions on who to start and what formation to play. I am certain that there were plenty of times that he thought there was no chance to succeed if so-and-so played the centre forward position, or if so-and-so played keeper. The few times the team was relegated, I am certain there was great disappointment and anger. But he never turned his back on the team. What I hear from some so-called fans on this board is the urge to abandon ship. Their choice, but not the behaviour of a supporter. It's the behaviour of a consumer.

Benfica's golden era was some 50 years ago. Their success is now limited to the odd domestic title. Sure, they always finish top 3 domestically, but in Europe, continental success is the true goal of any top team and they haven't had much of it for 50 years. Yet, ask 10 random Portuguese who they support among Sporting, Porto and Benfica, and I bet you half will say they are Benfiquista.

Again, not saying that supporters can't be critical of their team. But when people stop following the team, it can only be because they feel they're not getting their "money's worth" (whether they're actually at the stadium or not). Which again, is a consumer's mentality, not a supporter's.

Don't worry, Roogsy. I know that you are a true supporter, and that for as long as TFC is around, you will be here on this messageboard talking TFC. Sometimes praising the team, other times criticizing the team. But either way, you at least still give a shit about the team, and that I can respect.

[boban]

when you have a player of DP status on your bench...you know there is issues.....

Let be honest....JDG and Kovermans are holding down two important statuses ....(DP).....honestly if your going to have 3 DP's 2 0f TFC 3 spots are not worthy of this role!....As much as i like these 2 guys....having them on your team is one thing..but if its going to cost you a 2 DP spots....we should be looking elsewhere! We have non DP players that are better then our DP's! thats a problem in itself!



CB- DP CM- FRINGS ST- DP

Not trying to single you out as others have slagged 2 of or 3 DP's.
I feel bad for JDG as I feel in a system he is a good player, and for the nat team he performs.
However, on TFC his criticis to an extent is warrented. But Koevman?? Come'on.
Last season when he came he was popping all those goals everybody, inclusing the naysayers of today, were creaming there pants.
The guy goes into a slump, and now he has to be shipped out?? Mind you, in this slump he stills has 1 goal in 5 games.
Nobody in MLS produces every game!! When Henry started for NYRB he was struggling. Now last season and this he is on fire.
Every player goes in a slump, and seeing as Koevman showed he can produce, he deserves far more rope than some peopole here think.

[OgtheDim]

And we're treated like disposable consumers. It shouldn't be a surprise when the consumer acts accordingly.

The point is many many many of us are supporters, not consumers. It goes against your narrative but ...meh.............that's life.

And, as for your challenge of how supports would react to how TFC has done things.

They'd yell and scream and rant and rave.

They wouldn't quit.

And if somebody called them a consumer, they'd tell them to F off for calling them names. (I'm not saying F off to anybody....just explaining the mentality.)

[Toronto]

my apologies: when Winter was first hired and even before, I was pretty sure that I read that he was the current assistant at Ajax. After looking into it, I found that he did indeed leave in 2009. Here's the article about his departure on the official Ajax website: http://www.ajax.nl/Nieuws/Nieuwsarch...t-bij-Ajax.htm
He wasn't fired, he left because he wanted a first team coaching job, and he left after winning the title, so no, he wasn't jobless because he's a bad coach

I also found the article about Bob De Klerk leaving Ajax if anyone's interested: http://www.ajax.nl/Nieuws/Nieuwsarch...s-avontuur.htm

BTW, a little tip before people bitch about the articles being in Dutch: Google Translate is your friend

Again, I'm sorry for not double checking my facts before stating them

EDIT: Well, at least I now know I'm not crazy, I managed to find at least one other person who states that he's a current (as of before he was hired here) assistant: http://viewfromthesouthstands.com/2011/01/winter/

And judging by his results as first team manager the fact that he spent a year or so lounging around the canals in Amsterdam proves those who didn't offer him a job in Europe. RIGHT.

Enough defending the guy due to his nationality. If we was Canadian he'd be gone by now. And being part of a championship coaching staff does not make one a good coach. He could have had zero input into anything as was there simply due his playing days at the club.

[Roogsy]

Rhapido, I understand bro. But you have to understand is that supporters of those clubs accept their fate. They know their beloved little club will never see Champions League or contend for a league title unless they have one of those special "one off" years. It's different when the club is in the top tier of the league in all aspects except results. Look at Man United fans. They were winning all kinds of trophies but it doesn't mean you sit there and let management do what they want. Liverpool has a legendary history that fans can look back and dwell on, what right do they have to protest ownership? All the right in the world my friend. How much moreso this incompetently run club. They need a swift kick in the ass. If the supporters don't do it, how bad does it look when the regular fans do?

[billyfly]

This one is for Parky:

TFC supporter versus MLSE

[billyfly]

^This thread needed more RUSH

[Phil]

Step one this weekend was a banner that stated: Results matter. It is still early we we care about the club and its progress, no sitting back but it will be as extreme as some want.

[narduch]

^This thread needed more RUSH

At this pace, TFC will make the MLS playoffs in 2112.

[Furtado91]

RUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

best band ever.

[Azerban]

I'm actually really disappointed by the equating of 'supporting the team' and 'giving MLSE all your money forever.' If you're disappointed in the ownership and think that, by speaking with your wallet (the only form of speech corporations respect), you may force some changes that will result in long term progress for the team, that IS supporting the team.

[Rhapido]

Rhapido, I understand bro. But you have to understand is that supporters of those clubs accept their fate. They know their beloved little club will never see Champions League or contend for a league title unless they have one of those special "one off" years. It's different when the club is in the top tier of the league in all aspects except results. Look at Man United fans. They were winning all kinds of trophies but it doesn't mean you sit there and let management do what they want. Liverpool has a legendary history that fans can look back and dwell on, what right do they have to protest ownership? All the right in the world my friend. How much moreso this incompetently run club. They need a swift kick in the ass. If the supporters don't do it, how bad does it look when the regular fans do?

I agree. All of these supporters that organize protests outside of Anfield or Old Trafford because of their clube's American/foreign ownership -- they all care deeply about their team - that's why they're doing what they're doing. More power to them.

[billyfly]

RUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

best band ever.

[boban]

Rhapido, I understand bro. But you have to understand is that supporters of those clubs accept their fate. They know their beloved little club will never see Champions League or contend for a league title unless they have one of those special "one off" years. It's different when the club is in the top tier of the league in all aspects except results. Look at Man United fans. They were winning all kinds of trophies but it doesn't mean you sit there and let management do what they want. Liverpool has a legendary history that fans can look back and dwell on, what right do they have to protest ownership? All the right in the world my friend. How much moreso this incompetently run club. They need a swift kick in the ass. If the supporters don't do it, how bad does it look when the regular fans do?

[Furtado91]

Im speechless, on one hand that's really cool and the synth parts are identical to when geddy used the synth, but on the other, it sounds so synthetic, it doesn't have a natural sound to it mixed with a synth. im torn, I want my 3 piece band covers AHAHHA.

anyhow that being said, Im for the team no matter what, but I refuse to buy season tickets and merch at full price. im proud to be from Toronto, and will be till i die. I just want to see em win it once in my lifetime (im 21 so they have time but hopefully they do it sooner rather than later).

[billyfly]

I once tried to convince Paul B to bring her here for the halftime show.

YYZ til I die.

LOL

[Abou Sky]

Step one this weekend was a banner that stated: Results matter. It is still early we we care about the club and its progress, no sitting back but it will be as extreme as some want.

I noticed that, my $.02 on that, MLSE likely didn't notice, players likely did, probably didn't do much to 'boost morale'