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  1. #91
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    I think we probably should give Winter a few more games (maybe 5?) before turning the howitzers on him. This was a predictable, and maybe even excusable, loss. But the free passes end today.

    Re the bigger picture, I agree that the fan base can't take it if TFC are doormats again. We're already there. The Santos Laguna announced attendance of almost 19000 was complete BS, thousands of empty seats in the more expensive sections.

    Also Anselmi will hesitate (and possibly even not be able) to make a change so close to the sale closing date. The Carlyle hiring bugged me, and I bet a lot of people directly involved, because, even though Burke had the right to make a long-term commitment to Carlyle, it is really restricting to the new ownership to take on big new commitments right before the changeover.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    Are you sure they didn't cheap out in the beginning?
    It's pretty well known that they didn't invest in a DP early on because the stands were full and they didn't feel the need to invest that way. A business decision - not a footballing one.

    There were also very well placed sources saying could have had Fowler in year one for a million per year.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by boysblue View Post
    aw c'mon.....don't be so hard on the lads, after all:

    1. their best player is out
    2. they were playing on a plastic pitch
    3. they played midweek and if the game and subsequent travel didn't affect them physically, they were bound to be gutted by the disappointment of losing
    4. their mvp of two seasons ago is still out
    1.arnaud an bernier were out for Montreal
    2.both teams played on it, but will agree its a slight advantage to them as they are more familiar with it
    3.montreal also played midweek away, with a later kickoff than us. I'll give you less travel time and a much less hostile environment though. They should be gutted after midweek - and that should have drown them to react positively - especially given the fact that it was Montreal. It shouldn't have a negative effect.
    4.Cann is not the solution to this teams problems. Not in this system.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by TorontoMO View Post
    Actually the causal/band wagoner fan will the ones that turn this team around. When they walk away and that is left is the hardcore 1500 in the stadium (Which by the way was the gates at most Lynx games from the A-league) the owners will have to take the winning thing serious. As long as there is 15K at the games, they won't do a thing.

    If you want to protest the direction of the club, pick a game and have every hardcore supporter not show up. Just stay away. They may take notice of that. Show up fill the stands and they won't care how many signs you paint or what those signs say.
    Leaving it up the general fan to send the message has two things wrong with it:

    1) By allowing the regular fan to take the lead in this regard, the supporters groups, the supposed benchmark of support for a team is actually deferring their responsibility to hold the team accountable.
    2) By the time the disorganized group of overall fans have acted en masse and managed to send a clear message to management its only because things have gone so far and gotten so bad that there is little surprise it happens (ie. Year 4). If SGs haven't acted by then I would question the need for their existence due to a complete lack of effectiveness.

    Supporters are supposed to lead not follow. And not just in singing and jumping.

  5. #95
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    I've seen a few comments about Doneil Henry.. just my opinion throwing it out there.

    - Doneil Henry got subbed in for Eckersley and isn't a very face "wingback" type player. He's a centreback naturally. Can't blame him for getting burned a few times.
    - Once Emory was sent off and he played more centrally I think he was defending a bit more confidently.
    - I'm surprised he missed that header in the box (sent in from De Guzman) but to be fair it was a bad angle, though he is very good in the air.

    As for the game..
    - Great atmosphere, enjoyed the rivalry.
    - Bad showing on the pitch, had more fun chanting then I did watching the game at times.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    I keep rolling my eyes at the hubris to wish bandwagoners goodbye. Like somehow we think MLSE will put a better team on the pitch, not worse, if we have half (or less) fans in the stands.
    You can certainly kiss the notion of 3 DP's, mostly likely even one goodbye if that's the case.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    I think we probably should give Winter a few more games (maybe 5?) before turning the howitzers on him. This was a predictable, and maybe even excusable, loss. But the free passes end today.

    Re the bigger picture, I agree that the fan base can't take it if TFC are doormats again. We're already there. The Santos Laguna announced attendance of almost 19000 was complete BS, thousands of empty seats in the more expensive sections.

    Also Anselmi will hesitate (and possibly even not be able) to make a change so close to the sale closing date. The Carlyle hiring bugged me, and I bet a lot of people directly involved, because, even though Burke had the right to make a long-term commitment to Carlyle, it is really restricting to the new ownership to take on big new commitments right before the changeover.
    I agree with you 100%. The problem? There are no expectations set whereby any observer can say "change is necessary". Right now it's all ad hoc. The only standard I have seen is that the team make the playoffs meaning the only appropriate time to visit this issue is if and when TFC are mathematically eliminated from contention. So...what...September? Great, possibly another year written off. Exactly what I warned against last year.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    Are you sure they didn't cheap out in the beginning? They picked the wrong guy - one guy. How much did they invest in the rest of the front office? How much in scouting compared to other MLS teams? How much did they invest in the rest of the team's infrastructure? This was a brand new franchise, they had zero employees when they started and they could have put together any front office they wanted - instead they hired one guy with almost no experience (and absolutely none building a team from scratch) and that was it.

    What's happening now is a direct result of that poor management (of the whole organization). In the first four years - with the best fan support in the league - they built nothing of any lasting value.

    Now they're still scrambling, hiring consultants and a coach and a GM who never met each other before they came here.

    There is no defence of MLSE.
    I clearly stated that what is happening this year is not because they cheaped (is cheaped even a word? The Safari spell checker seems to think it isn't) out. They made the right kind of decisions last offseason. It's not to MLSE's benefit that the team sucks. There's this conspiratorial subtext to things people write here, people seem to be implying that there's some secret agenda to make the team bad.

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    1015pm back from montreal.

    Redpatchboys for the first time i was standing with you guys in the section.
    wat you guys do every game is awesome and the problem is you guys deserve more than the crap we see every weekend.
    i hope the front office wake up and give you guys wat youdeserve, a winning team.

  10. #100
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    umm. good response brad, but i was being sarcastic.

    however, i neglected to mention:

    5. the impact played the entire match with eleven men
    6. danny took a wicked knee to the nuts

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    Quote Originally Posted by boysblue View Post
    umm. good response brad, but i was being sarcastic.
    Fair enough - sarcasm rarely comes through clearly on message boards though....

  12. #102
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    Just got back from MTL and two things still stick out

    1) The best Mtl support could offer was a "TFC circus in town" banner drawn by pre-schoolers. REALLY? This was your chance to showcase your support and that's the best you could offer??????? Jeepers murphy, somebody post a Columbus link as a teaching tool

    2) YOU ALLOW THE ENTIRE MTL TEAM TO CELEBRATE LIKE CHAMPIONS IN FRONT OF YOUR TRAVELLING SUPPORT AFTER A GOAL AND STAND THERE AND WATCH IT? For the love of all that's good and holy somebody square up to someone over there and let em know it's not acceptable!!!! No heart, no guts, no grit, NO LEADER.

    Gonna go observe the 24 hour rule now before saying anything else.

  13. #103
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    My jaw dropped, seeing the way Ty Harden gave up on the ball to give Impact's 2nd goal. I was utterly shocked. This backline needs to be addressed now, it is getting exposed every game now that Frings has been out. I always wanted Frings to play a more attacking style, then being a sweeper. But cleaaarly, TFC needs Frings now. Winter needs to go on the market and look for real solid defenders.

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Here is the one thing I would like to ask Winter: if we're modelled on Ajax, why are we playing so many square balls? JDG is the worst, but they all do it.

    It is a hallmark of Ajax football, taught there from age 7 onwards (I know this from a documentary I watched), that you avoid the square ball because, if it is intercepted, you are automatically shorthanded, as both the passer and the receiver are instantly behind the play.

    JDG and Dunfield both doing it led directly to the first goal.
    This is where I fear the arrogance and narcissism that comes with success as a player might come into effect.

    We clearly don't have the talent to risk a slow build from the back, not in MLS, where players are strong, fast and aggressive above all else. The one game where we played directly, with a tight and compact defense but using a regular 4-3-3 offense ( a la Ajax) was the first game against Santos, and we looked really f'ing good.

    But I don't see these two guys adapting the system to the league. They're trying to adapt the entirety of American football - via Klinsmann at the U.S. national level -- to the system. But it would take a multi-generational shift across the U.S. college and amateur system as well to develop the necessary supporting technique, mindset and coaching.

    When I was a kid in England in the 70s, they taught us fundamentals of movement, reading the play and moving into space, at a very early age. It's a very different approach, less aggressive, more focused on team interplay than kick around. Short square balls in your own end would get your ass benched at age EIGHT,at least for that practice or game. That's lacking over here. So players' development is well behind, as Tomas Rongen admitted in one of his first interviews after joining TFC.

    We need to adapt to the league. It's great playing with movement and technique up top, entertaining and productive. But in our end, we need to be more compact, get the ball up to midfield and challenge for it. DeGuzman and Dunfield don't have the work rate, the speed or the ability to read quickly enough.

    I vote we throw caution to the wind, play more directly but with the 4-3-3 rotations, and start Jr. Burgos and Matt Stinson behind Luis Silva. All three have impressed me more in the few occasions we've seen them than the clowns starting now.

    Doneil Henry should never play wing back. He doesn't have the delivery. What the hell was that about? He's a straight up in-the-box ball winner, great in the air, good tackler. he's not a fullback or a wingback.

    I'd switch to this, and play more direct, with a more compact team, bring on plata and lambe late for the speed advantage wide.

    --------------Kocic------------------
    --Eckersley--Henry--Emory(when back)--Morgan (shaky today.)
    ---------Stinson---Burgos-------------
    --------------Silva-------------------
    Johnson------------------Soolsma
    -----------Koevermans.

  15. #105
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    Jeremy, spot on. Ill have better reply once i watch this game again but someone needs to show Winter Sporting KC tapes. They make 4-3-3 work in mls bc they play and adapt to the league. 5 wins in a row to start the season after dumping la 1-0who today

  16. #106
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    just got back from Montreal.

    The support was fantastic and that is the sort of support that can be proud that it was loud throughout and brought it into the stadium as visitors. Reminded me of travelling in Europe to support my team.

    On a side note, one of my kids loved being the capo for two minutes in the first half and leading a ribald chant on the megaphone, props to the capo whom I don't know personally for inviting him to do it.

    Also, the smoke was fantastic, super. Away games really are the most fun with TFC.

  17. #107
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    It's going to take me a while to get over this defeat. I felt totally letdown today and I didn't even go to Montreal.

  18. #108
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    There's no other way to spin it or make it less than what it is - we got outplayed in almost all respects today by a team with only 5 previous MLS matches under its belt. This is a result the organization should be ashamed of, especially considering the opponent. I can give the club some leeway after playing Santos midweek. I can even cut them some slack for playing away in a very hostile stadium or the fact that it was the first BIG game for the home team. But none of those points are an excuse for the apathy and level of athleticism I saw on the pitch today. I saw the possession stats put up on TSN three times over the course of the game - each time saying it was 69% to 31% in favour of Montreal and I can't honestly dispute those figures.

    Koevermans and Soolsma played a decent game. Personally, I don't get why Soolsma was subbed out when he was, he looked pretty good today - at least a lot better than before. Kocic played as well as can be expected, but AGAIN was let down by the back four. Or was it back two? Because when it mattered the most, we were definitely lacking in bodies between the ball and the net. Emory looked okay as well, and you know what? I don't give a fuck about his red card. It actually reminded me that we still have some players with blood in their vains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    It's the single biggest reason behind my fervent and yes, often overbearing, pleadings on this board for more accountability to the fans. We are the ONLY check in the whole system that keeps MLSE somewhat honest. I continue to believe as a whole we have failed as supporters and have let the bandwagoners be the ones to dictate the message to management.

    But in doing so it has damaged the "brand" of TFC to the point where we are the laughing-stock not only in our city but in the league. We could have been the opposite. I honestly believe we could have been THE elite team of MLS. It makes me sad. What could have been... *sigh*
    You're taking the words right out of my mouth. During our first two seasons, it really looked like Toronto was going to be MLS's next BIG CLUB simply on account of the huge crowds we were getting at BMO and how enthusiastically people were embracing the sport and culture here in the city. Sure we're weren't playing great soccer, but I'm sure most of us assumed the wins would eventually come. How could they not? We were packing it in at the stadium, buying swaths of merch, organizing and going on MASSIVE road trips (the sort previously unseen in the league), and had the best and most organized supporter groups in the league. With a fanbase like that and the financial resources of MLSE, how could we NOT become one of the top-three clubs in the league?

    As it turns outs, the answer was simple: The ownership had very little knowledge about what is required to build and oversee a successful soccer club and didn't bring in anyone who did.

    MLSE didn't want to take some of the necessary risks to build a competitive team from the outset. They brought in Mo Johnson, a decidedly ho-hum choice for Head Coach. They wouldn't even attempt to sign a DP until the 2009 season was well underway. We had this enormous opportunity squandered by people with a very limited vision and/or a very limited understanding of how to create and maintain a successful club.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    Are you sure they didn't cheap out in the beginning? They picked the wrong guy - one guy. How much did they invest in the rest of the front office? How much in scouting compared to other MLS teams? How much did they invest in the rest of the team's infrastructure? This was a brand new franchise, they had zero employees when they started and they could have put together any front office they wanted - instead they hired one guy with almost no experience (and absolutely none building a team from scratch) and that was it.

    What's happening now is a direct result of that poor management (of the whole organization). In the first four years - with the best fan support in the league - they built nothing of any lasting value.

    Now they're still scrambling, hiring consultants and a coach and a GM who never met each other before they came here.

    There is no defence of MLSE.
    Pretty much this. I didn't mean to basically repeat the gist of your post, but so much is true. It's like the club is in a constant state of flux. It started off that way and it will likely continue for the foreseeable future.

    Quote Originally Posted by boysblue View Post
    aw c'mon.....don't be so hard on the lads, after all:

    1. their best player is out
    2. they were playing on a plastic pitch
    3. they played midweek and if the game and subsequent travel didn't affect them physically, they were bound to be gutted by the disappointment of losing
    4. their mvp of two seasons ago is still out

    1. The loss of one player from the roster should never impact a club in such a way that we are losing now, and it's a terrible argument to use in defence of the club and the people calling the shots.

    2. So were the Impact. I'm not denying that the Impact have had more time to play and practise on it , but it shouldn't be a huge factor to explain their win. Let's remember that we played on turf for the Champions League match against LA and practised on it beforehand, so it's not an unknown playing surface to the current roster.

    3. Montreal played RSL on Wednesday. There's no doubt that the team would have gone into the match today below 100% fitness and rest, but so did Montreal.

    4. That didn't help us any today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    All that hype and goodwill from the game at the Skydome is quickly evaporating isn't it?

    Results matter. Some have convinced themselves the city and it's fans will wait for results but I have never believed that to be true. We need results NOW! Or all we're doing is damaging the brand to the point where all you will have are the South stand fans and THEN try convincing the new overlords/owners to keep investing in multiple DPs. And without those how are we going to compete? Look what losing Frings has done to the team.
    TFC cannot survive on it's current course. I mean that literally. The club will continue to lose fans if we don't turn this thing around and MLSE won't hesitate to cut the team loose the second it starts losing money. And it won't take crowds of 7 or 8 thousands for that to happen. Apparently 10,000 to 11,000 is around the break-even point for gate revenues - at least according to what I've been told. If we carry on with this level of play, expect to see crowds of far less than 18,000 next season.

    Quote Originally Posted by MG42 View Post
    This team really missed the boat in the first couple years...the potential that was wasted is mind blowing
    Yep. For a while the phrase of choice many here were using was "killing the golden goose". I always thought it was a bad cliche, but I think it's actually very astute. Again, for the first two years this club could do no wrong. The crowds were there and their was money to be made. I don't think we've had particularly cheap owners. They've shown stinginess in some very obvious cases, but for the most part, I'm give them a pass. But having all the money in the world doesn't mean much if you spend it unwisely or fail to see the benefits of certain investments.

    Quote Originally Posted by brad View Post
    It's pretty well known that they didn't invest in a DP early on because the stands were full and they didn't feel the need to invest that way. A business decision - not a footballing one.

    There were also very well placed sources saying could have had Fowler in year one for a million per year.
    And we suffered for years because of it.
    Last edited by Cashcleaner; 04-07-2012 at 10:40 PM.
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

  19. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by UltraSuperMegaMo View Post
    I clearly stated that what is happening this year is not because they cheaped (is cheaped even a word? The Safari spell checker seems to think it isn't) out. They made the right kind of decisions last offseason. It's not to MLSE's benefit that the team sucks. There's this conspiratorial subtext to things people write here, people seem to be implying that there's some secret agenda to make the team bad.
    I disagree that they made the right kinds of decisions. They hired a consultant on a short-term contract and he's long gone. The right decision would have been a full-time president with a lot of experience who actually runs the whole operation.

    But we agree that it's in their best interest to have a successful team. That doesn't mean they have the ability to do it. This isn't some kind of conspiracy, they just aren't very good.

    We'll see, maybe Bell will do a better job, but just wanting it isn't enough. It's in the best interest if every ownership to have a successful team, but they can't all win.

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    Disscusting!!!!!!!!
    Can someone/anyone tell me WHERE THE FUCK IS THE EXPERIENCED CENTER DEFENDER WE WERE SUPPOSED TO GET A YEAR AGO WHO WAS SUPPOSED TO SOLIDIFY OUR BACK LINE AND TEACH OUR YOUNGER PLAYERS?

    SINCE THAT NEVER HAPPENED, WE USED/ABUSED OUR BEST PLAYER AND OUR HEART AND SOUL - TORSTEN FRINGS - INTO INJURY BY HAVING HIM DO 2 AND 3 JOBS AT A TIME!!!

    WELL DONE MLSE!!!! COULDN'T ORGANIZE A PISS UP IN A BREWERY (UNLESS THEY COULD GET AWAY WITH NOT DELIVERING AND MAKE A TIDY PROFIT)

    I AM READY TO DITCH MY SEASON TICKETS -MLSE CAN GO FUCK THEMSELVES

    IF WINTER AND MARINER HAD BALLS, THEY SHOULD GO PUBLIC ABOUT THE FARSE CALLED TFC AND FORCE THE ISSUE OR RESIGN IN PROTEST!!!

    sp69

    One of many pissed supporters

    SP69

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post

    De Guz and Dunfield were useless, like a black hole in the midfield
    C'mon, that is just dumb.

    A black hole would have been FAR more effective in midfield...

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    Quote Originally Posted by SoccMan View Post
    That is all good and dandy but if you think MLSE will continue with a team if it begins to not make money and instead bleed money then you are in for one big surprise!
    Well that nisn't a bad thing necessarily.
    Maybe they sell TFC and we get rid of MLSE once and for good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UltraSuperMegaMo View Post
    I agree 100%, but in defence of MLSE, what's happening this year isn't because they cheaped out or made obviously bad decisions in terms of the team's management. It looks like they just picked the wrong guy. It's in their best interest for the team to a success on the field.
    It's not Winter's fault he doesn't get the support form ownership. besides its too simple to critisize him when the other two managers are in the same boat.
    There is a serious systamatic deficiency in MLSE ownership. Far tooo many problems/issues keep popping up in all 3 teams to dismiss it at the feet of the manager, in this case Winter.

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    All this talk of how much MLSE is to blame.

    I have to wonder. If they ARE in fact to blame, will transfer of ownership make a difference?

    It would seem to me that a winning team brings in more TV revenues, as well as gate/shwag $$$, could Rogers & Bell be the turnaround MLSE needs?

    I guess we can hope.


    Big thanks to all the travelers, great fun to be there, would have been more fun to win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sky View Post
    All this talk of how much MLSE is to blame.

    I have to wonder. If they ARE in fact to blame, will transfer of ownership make a difference?

    It would seem to me that a winning team brings in more TV revenues, as well as gate/shwag $$$, could Rogers & Bell be the turnaround MLSE needs?

    I guess we can hope.


    Big thanks to all the travelers, great fun to be there, would have been more fun to win.
    Tangible real new ownership is not coming in 3 months. It's just one corporate entity trading spots with 2 corporate enities.
    MLSE still lives and breathes and remains a faceless entity. The more things change the more they stay the same.

    And your statement a winning team brings in $$ in TV revenue is what the problem is with these two new entities. I couldnt give a shit about TV revenue wins.
    I just want an owner that wants to win for the sake of just simply winning. Nothing else!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    I keep rolling my eyes at the hubris to wish bandwagoners goodbye. Like somehow we think MLSE will put a better team on the pitch, not worse, if we have half (or less) fans in the stands.
    Roogsy, I think you and SoccMan misinterpreted my post.

    I'm in no way in favour of having an empty BMO Field. I value the casual fan and realize that they keep the locomotive going as much as supporters do. I know for a fact that empty seats will not benefit the club and/or the acquisition of skilled players or DPs for that matter. What I object to is not the casual fan, but the fan who chooses to support this team when everything is peachy but refuses to support the team through its lows. That to me, is the definition of a "bandwagon jumper".

    I'm just as dissapointed as anyone else that we're off to an 0-4 start, but I will always support this team, even if it means we finish at the bottom of the table. Supporting your club through the best of times and the worst of times. Call me crazy, but isn't that what the definition of a "fan" is? I don't consider myself a "hubris" but I do consider myself a dedicated fan. I would hope that most fans of this team would stick through the good, the bad and the ugly otherwise what's the point?

    Just my 2 cents.

  27. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by boban View Post
    It's not Winter's fault he doesn't get the support form ownership. besides its too simple to critisize him when the other two managers are in the same boat.
    There is a serious systamatic deficiency in MLSE ownership. Far tooo many problems/issues keep popping up in all 3 teams to dismiss it at the feet of the manager, in this case Winter.
    I think it's a complete guess that Winter "doesn't get support from ownership" at this moment, or that the ownership is currently the main problem. I mean, in the long run of course MLSE is the problem -- they hired all the guys we've had so far, and made many of the other bad decisions that were mentioned above. But right now, we just don't know if Winter is being prevented by ownership from doing something that he wants to do & that would really help the team. Did Winter want to buy-out JDG's contract during the offseason and dump him, maybe get a stud CB instead? We don't know. From Winter/Mariner/De Klerk's public statements, I would guess that they thought JDG is overpaid, but pretty good, and (given the contract that Mo had already given him) OK to keep until the end of this year. I don't think any of us knows for sure.

    I haven't said much about Winter so far, and I've tried to be optimistic about him (as well as Mariner & De Klerk). However, given some of the decisions they have obviously made, I'm no longer willing to blame things only on ownership. E.g., sometimes Winter has done a pretty good job picking his starters and his subs -- but some of his decisions have been obviously bone-headed in that regard, today being an example (as mentioned above).

    Similarly, I doubt ownership forced them to sign the new guys that they got -- and too many of them have been busts, at least in the way they've been played.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    I disagree that they made the right kinds of decisions. They hired a consultant on a short-term contract and he's long gone. The right decision would have been a full-time president with a lot of experience who actually runs the whole operation.

    But we agree that it's in their best interest to have a successful team. That doesn't mean they have the ability to do it. This isn't some kind of conspiracy, they just aren't very good.

    We'll see, maybe Bell will do a better job, but just wanting it isn't enough. It's in the best interest if every ownership to have a successful team, but they can't all win.
    Perhaps one of the biggest problems this club has had since day one is the lack of a dedicated club President. Myself and several other members here have been saying it for years. Tom Anselmi oversees several departments at MLSE, including TFC. I don't want to be too critical of the man because for all I know, he had the job thrown in his lap. But we need someone in charge who understands the fundamentals of the sport, the structural and operational details of the league, and has a greater sense of stewardship toward the team.
    Last edited by Cashcleaner; 04-07-2012 at 11:45 PM.
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

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    having a fantastic weekend in Mtl DESPITE the match. this club does not deserve the level of support we give it.
    Cheersh

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    Quote Originally Posted by boban View Post
    I just want an owner that wants to win for the sake of just simply winning. Nothing else!
    Me too man, me too...

    'fan owned' would be awesome but where the hell is $200m or so of fan money? (stab in the dark at value)

 

 

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