Sticking up for Dunfield and Harden

[ensco]

Interesting. Harden is third on the active list in TFC games played, behind only Frei and JDG.

[Technorgasm]

I love this thread. . its long over due to call out good performances. well done.

for me its not abotu value for money. .
its out who WANTS to play and give their all for thsi squad.

Both of these guys fit the bill, and it can only get better.
plus having a Canadian international is easy to cheer for!

I'd add Soolsma to this as well, he has been fantastic this season.

[BayernTFC]

I say we need to stop. Criticise when required, but give praise when due too.

I certainly agree with the sentiments of your post. I do think that we have to accept that not everyone is watching or seeing the same things, so comments on player's performances will always be uneven. It can be interesting to hear (or read) what others have to say. Football can be a fast paced game, and I only have two eyes, so I certainly don't see everything. Some people here have a good grasp of the game and pick up on the subtleties. Their comments can be insightful, their arguments persuasive, and their posts appreciated. Speaking for myself, I don't feel that I need to balance my comments all the time. If I have been previously critical of a player, I sometimes refrain from commenting either way until consistent improvement is observed. I find that positive comments really stand out and carry greater weight when someone usually critical expresses praise after an exceptional performance. Conversely, continually pointing out the same problems becomes tiresome and loses effect. Oftentimes, I'll avoid making a comment on an obvious error if overall play has been good.

Dunfield and Harden are pretty much depth squad players in an MLS team. For their skill sets and salary (they both cost about 65k, based upon last year's salary list), you get value for what they bring to the team.

Take Wed night's game for example. I've seen many criticize Dunfield still, when I thought he had a good game, just as good as JDG did. Yes, he made a few gaffs, esp the one he slipped, but Dunfield played his heart out, and I'd say without his efforts on the pitch, doing his DM destroyer thing, cutting out passes, being physical against Santos attackers, playing short simple but effect passes, TFC would have lost. (just as much as it was a team collective defensive effort)

Ty Harden is not the flashiest, or most talented of defenders, but ever since he put on the jersey in Toronto, he's been improving remarkably. Still not to the point he should be starting every game, but he brings hard nose physical element to the game. Did anyone else catch that great last second tackle that stopped a Santos breakaway in 2nd half? The one that if he mistimed it by half a sec, he would have cost a penalty? He does that a lot actually.
The fact that Harden survived Winter's purge when a lot of his former teammates (Peterson, Gargan, etc) shoot their mouths off, kept his head down and willing to learn says something about Harden.

I think Ty Harden is a good example of what can happen if a player is given enough time to settle. Harden has become steadier when too much isn't asked of him, and he has provided some quality defending from time to time. However, his deficiencies have remained clear and I think much frustration is born from the fact that he has continued to be relied on so heavily. If Harden was being used in the role that Maund seems to have at the moment (where Maund is seeing tactical, relief or emergency minutes while the coaching staff patiently tries to get him some experience), then I believe few fans would take issue.

I see a big difference between Terry Dunfield and Ty Harden, however. Until Torsten Frings arrived, TFC's inability to use the middle of the pitch was not only limiting, but it made the team look incomplete and hard to watch. I felt Dunny's performance against Santos Laguna was noteworthy because, through him, TFC was actually able to connect to the attack using the middle of the pitch. Despite the poor result against San Jose, TFC was able to show an ability to use the middle of the pitch during that match as well because of Terry's play. Perhaps some former TFC midfielders have gone on to perform well elsewhere but, unlike Dunfield, they were unable to demonstrate an ability to connect to the attack or make good use of the centre of the pitch when they had their chances at TFC. Terry Dunfiled is no Torsten Frings, but he has afforded TFC's coaching staff the option to utilize Frings elsewhere when needed and he has also provided cover when either JDG or Torsten Frings are out of the lineup. I have seen a marked change in TFC's midfield play with Terry Dunfield deployed, that I just don't see in the backline with Ty Harden. Dunfield has been doing something many others have failed to do for TFC. Has Ty Harden changed Toronto's backline much from when Marco Velez, Tyrone Marshall or Andy Iro were deployed in central defense? Even if I would rather have Ty Harden instead of Velez, Marshall, Iro or Garcia, which I do, should I be content that TFC's central defense isn't as poor as it could be?

I think Dunfield and Harden are two of the hardest working players on the team, and still do their job professionally, no matter how much stick a lot of people give them. I think a lot of people have unreasonable expectations when it comes to a lot of our players. Dunfield isn't Makelele, so don't judge him as one. Harden isn't Rio Ferdinand either. We need to temper down our expectations and rate these players based upon their role and value to the team.

This is MLS. Your team will have at least few guys like Dunfield and Harden that are expected to provide depth for low salary. For their salary and their role on the team, I think Dunfield and Harden are excellent members of the squad.

I think it is important to bear in mind that the Manchester Uniteds and Bayern Munichs don't produce clean sheets every match. Own goals, ricochets, bad touches, missed blocks, missed assignements, poor marking and general slips and mistakes happen to the top players on the best of teams too. As well, one good game doesn't change everything. TFC has Columbus to play on Saturday, and Santos Laguna in the second leg of a semi-final at home will be a completely different kettle of fish. MLS rules and the salary cap certainly place limitations on squads. Do MLS restrictions mean players feel the brunt of criticism and management often gets a pass? Do MLS rules prevent mangement from making colossal or irreversable mistakes, or do the league rules make it too difficult to unravel the mistakes previous mangement regimes have made? Has the money on Thierry Henry and Rafa Marquez been well spent? What happens when addtional money gets spent on a Mustapha Jarju? Should fans even worry about off field decisions or any of the numbers, or should the focus just be on the performance on the field?

This is an important discussion to have. I like to know who is accountable for what. I also like to see individuals accept responsibility and stand up to be accountable. Sould fans be part of that equation? Does paying for a ticket or bothering to follow a team give a person a free pass to make any type of comment they wish? That's a hard question. If fans aren't entertained and no one pays attention, then what do you have really? I'll protect your right to say it, but that doesn't mean I have to agree with what you say. In the end, if a discussion provides little value, I'm likely to disengage anyways. I appreciate your post Yohan. Thank you.

[Yohan]

^Nowhere did I say that Dunfield and Harden shouldn't be criticized when they screw up. Rather, I'd like to see more objective criticism tempered with knowledge of how things work in MLS, and that you won't get quality players in every position. And stop with the scapegoating.

I'm so sick of people ragging on Dunfield and Harden, because it's the cool thing to do

[TFCBarrie]

Winning should be celebrated. Commitment and hard work should be applauded.

I stand corrected and in agreement with you Jack.

[BayernTFC]

Picking on the players that make the least is like picking on the smallest player on a basketball team for not rebounding enough.

I find comments like this tricky. Have certain comments truly been made to pick on a player or do they just support facts? How does one know whether a comment will be received as justifiable criticism or perceived as picking on a player? Should anyone bother attempting to give constructive criticism and what is the best way to do it? Should one just avoid commenting on poor play? I'm not supportive of making judgements solely on pay scale. Every team has a lowest paid player. If you play a position on the field, you have a role. If you start a match, there are expectations. Salary does tell a part of the story. However, no matter how much is being paid, picking on a player is picking on a player. How much does it really add to a discussion and how much does it diminish the effectiveness of a particular poster's arguments?

[iy12l]

I dont care how hard Harden and Dunfield work, they are shit players no better than an average superdraft picks. Everytime we are in a slight lead i get a heart attack when i see harden/dunfiled with the ball. They are so shit that they are more like offence for the other team.

[Jack]

I dont care how hard Harden and Dunfield work, they are shit players no better than an average superdraft picks. Everytime we are in a slight lead i get a heart attack when i see harden/dunfiled with the ball. They are so shit that they are more like offence for the other team.

Case in point.

[KRO]

I dont care how hard Harden and Dunfield work, they are shit players no better than an average superdraft picks. Everytime we are in a slight lead i get a heart attack when i see harden/dunfiled with the ball. They are so shit that they are more like offence for the other team.

This has been a very balanced and mature discussion except for your contributions. I suppose you are entitled to your opinion however wrong it is but I for one would appreciate a more reasoned argument.

[Jack]

Judging by his posting history, that is about what we can expect from him. That is part of the reason why we have the new Reputation system.

[PopePouri]

It's part of human nature to scapegoat but that doesn't make it right.

Hopefully this is Henry's year to get a lot more minutes and given his performances in Dallas and the CMNT, he looks like he has the ability now to shut down good MLS forwards.

[BayernTFC]

^Nowhere did I say that Dunfield and Harden shouldn't be criticized when they screw up. Rather, I'd like to see more objective criticism tempered with knowledge of how things work in MLS, and that you won't get quality players in every position. And stop with the scapegoating.

I'm so sick of people ragging on Dunfield and Harden, because it's the cool thing to do

We are in complete agreement. I wasn't trying to portray that you were suggesting that critical comments about players shouldn't be made. I just used your OP to convey my thoughts. Perhaps I was too long winded? I wanted to explain why I felt Terry Dunfield and Ty Harden were in different situations despite the fact that they receive similar criticism. I think your comparison of Harden to Gargan or Peterson was apt, but I think Dunfield's situation would more suitably be compared to Cronin or Labrocca. I was trying to play devil's advocate in places and I apologize if my comments made it appear as though I was attacking you in some way. I find many MLS rules convoluted and designed to reduce accountability. I have taken the effort to learn the rules and try my best to understand them. It has been less frustrating to accept MLS rules for what they are, even though I personally prefer other standards. I have been a part of discussions on MLS rules already and I do not wish to hijack this thread over them.

[Fishnicker]

MLS rosters still need a number of players in the 65-100k range (I know Dunny makes more than that, but my point is these guys are depth players). In the past, I think we've made poor use of those slots.

Dunny basically represents Kevin Harmse, or maybe Nane Joseph. I see an upgrade. Harden is probably the best CB depth player we've had.

I think they're both great for that salary range.

[trane]

Scoring is not the first quality I look for in a DM. Judging him on his ability to score is silly. Sure it is nice, when in certain situations, a DM can take advantage of space and put a nice shot at target, but I would be very upset if my DM was constantly being part of play around the finishing third. His job is to sit back, be both the first line of defense and the starting point of attack, the pivot if you will. WHile it is a crucial role which involves both some offensive and defensive skills, scoring is just not high on the priority list.

As much as I am critical of him, here, I have seen the improvment in Harden, and I applaud it. However, clearly he should not be our starter.

[BayernTFC]

i am very appreciative of what carl robinson brought to this club in the first couple of seasons, but i would take terry dunfield over him in a heartbeat. in my opinion, dunfield is at least as good of a ball winner, more industrious, and has much better distribution, along with being a potential threat from distance.

i realize the team structure and system is completely different at this point, but something to think about.

You know, I think this is a very interesting post. I remember people really getting on Carl's back towards the end of his tenure at TFC. I thought they were being overly critical despite the good things Carl brought to the team. I understood what TFC management was trying to do at the time when they signed JDG, but I thought that replacing Carl with Julian was a mistake. The obvious arguments against Carl over age and salary were made. He did get injured while with RBNY. Robinson was a ball winner for us and he commanded respect in the middle. Carl did have his issues with distribution which Terry seems to be showing he can handle. It would have been interesting to see Carl perform on the grass at BMO. I'll wait a little longer before I form a definitive opinion on Terry. Like many players to wear the red, Dunfield has had some shaky performances for TFC. Dunny hasn't played a lot of games for TFC and, although he appears to be settling in, I'd like to see how things progress over time.

[Soccerpro]

Ty Harden makes the same type of silly errors time after time. He can work as hard as he wants, he's just not MLS quality. I blame management for playing him, not him for trying his best.

Terry Dunfield played ok against Santos. He tries hard, however, he's often not skillful enough. He passes backwards far too often and tends to give possession away cheaply sometimes.

As a supporter of this team I'm going point out who isn't contributing to success. I'm not going to sit here and say "oh well he tries hard". Give me Doneil Henry and Matt Stinson over those two any day.

Are they responsible for all of TFC's problems? No

Would TFC have been better off without Ty Harden these last 2 and 1/2 years? Absolutely. Every time I see him on the field I just cringe.

[Yohan]

Terry Dunfield played ok against Santos. He tries hard, however, he's often not skillful enough. He passes backwards far too often and tends to give possession away cheaply sometimes.

same could be said of JDG. just saying

[Belfast_Boy]

I agree with you on Dunfield, I think he is a solid depth DM. I agree that Harden has improved. I am starting to be OK with him as a depth (MLS) player, but still your comment highlights his problem, the same type of tackle cost us a goal against LA, and as you pointed out could have been a penalty in either game. My main issue with him that he seems not to know when to be physical, he seems to give to much space outside of the box, were you can be physical with little consequences and often too aggressive (sliding tackles etc.) in the box which can lead to penalties, and other problems (own goals). But I do agree he has improved and is a decent depth player. I do not think the issue with him is talent, in the sense, he has decent size, decent athleticism, but decision making, and instincts. Like he has not played as CB all his live, in fact last year I thought we were trying to convert him to CB, until someone told me that it was the position he had played professionally.

you're a bit kinder than I am about these two. i try not to slag our guys. well... except for JDG. he's getting paid way too much for what he brings. like others have said they belong on the bench and work hard when asked. can't wait for the regulars to get back. the worst thing i'll say is that both of them make me nervous.

[Soccerpro]

same could be said of JDG. just saying

Absolutely. I'm not impressed with JDG as a DP. But I'm not going to argue he isn't competent to be on the field.

[A.J]

Ty Harden makes the same type of silly errors time after time. He can work as hard as he wants, he's just not MLS quality. I blame management for playing him, not him for trying his best.

Terry Dunfield played ok against Santos. He tries hard, however, he's often not skillful enough. He passes backwards far too often and tends to give possession away cheaply sometimes.

As a supporter of this team I'm going point out who isn't contributing to success. I'm not going to sit here and say "oh well he tries hard". Give me Doneil Henry and Matt Stinson over those two any day.

Are they responsible for all of TFC's problems? No

Would TFC have been better off without Ty Harden these last 2 and 1/2 years? Absolutely. Every time I see him on the field I just cringe.

I think he is exactly MLS quality. You know as well as eveyone else that an MLS team just cannot have every position filled with star players. Some areas of the team will always pale in comparison to the others (also consider how most teams will invest their DP money into offense, not defense). Maybe your "MLS quality" vastly differs from my "MLS quality"

As for your last statement regarding TFC being better off without Harden in the last few years, I also disagree. You cannot say that playing Harden has been detrimental to the team, the same way I cannot say that the team would have been worse off without Harden, because we simply have no way of proving otherwise. It's a baseless and a subjective argument.

[DoubleUp]

Winning should be celebrated. Commitment and hard work should be applauded.

Exactly! lets never forget this.

Tfc fans sometimes are so busy celebrating hard work and good character, that our season usually goes down the tubes.

Its time to start winning now, we did the hard workers and nice guys and it has brought us nothing.

[DoubleUp]

I know one thing, I rather have Nana and/or Marvel wynne over harden any day

[A.J]

Exactly! lets never forget this.

Tfc fans sometimes are so busy celebrating hard work and good character, that our season usually goes down the tubes.

Its time to start winning now, we did the hard workers and nice guys and it has brought us nothing.

We also had a winner and ended up driving him out of town for not being a hard worker/nice guy

[Soccerpro]

I think he is exactly MLS quality. You know as well as eveyone else that an MLS team just cannot have every position filled with star players. Some areas of the team will always pale in comparison to the others (also consider how most teams will invest their DP money into offense, not defense). Maybe your "MLS quality" vastly differs from my "MLS quality"

As for your last statement regarding TFC being better off without Harden in the last few years, I also disagree. You cannot say that playing Harden has been detrimental to the team, the same way I cannot say that the team would have been worse off without Harden, because we simply have no way of proving otherwise. It's a baseless and a subjective argument.

MLS quality = competent. Competent = not standing out on a regular basis (meaning every 1-2 games) for your poor play and costly errors as compared to other players on your team and players who play your position around the league.

On every other team (for example several defenders on the whitecaps last year) when someone shows they aren't competent, they are replaced/nailed to the bench because they aren't MLS quality. This hans't been the case with TFC and Ty Harden. he just keeps on playing and making mistakes.

Name me someone who makes as many mistakes as him that sees regular time as a CB in MLS. You can't. They get replaced.

Explain to me how Ty Harden is MLS quality. Do you see a player like Ty Harden playing regulary for every MLS team?

Stop making excuses for Ty Harden. If he's on the field on a regular basis, MLS will continue to suffer mental breakdowns which cost them games. Anything less is utter nonsense.

[ensco]

I know one thing, I rather have Nana and/or Marvel wynne over harden any day

A bit like saying you prefer Filet mignon to Big Macs. Wynne makes $300K.

[DoubleUp]

We also had a winner and ended up driving him out of town for not being a hard worker/nice guy

That certainly wasnt me!. And he was a nice guy, just ruthless when it came to money and football.

[DoubleUp]

A bit like saying you prefer Filet mignon to Big Macs. Wynne makes $300K.

Fair enough, and in Nana's case?.

[Yohan]

On every other team (for example several defenders on the whitecaps last year) when someone shows they aren't competent, they are replaced/nailed to the bench because they aren't MLS quality. This hans't been the case with TFC and Ty Harden. he just keeps on playing and making mistakes.

Name me someone who makes as many mistakes as him that sees regular time as a CB in MLS. You can't. They get replaced.

Cory Gibbs, Chicago
Tyson Wahl, Montreal
Stephen Keel, New York

[Ossington Mental Youth]

burgos > dunfield
Doneil > Harden

Why not play them instead? Seriously Burgos is not only good at passing but he can also help out in attack and probably score some goals too which I dont think Dunfield can do. Doneil is faster and I bet he can read the game better than harden. Also Doneil is only 18 so he can learn the 4-3-3 easily where harden is still showing difficulty to adapt still.

i dont think we've seen Burgos play enough to come to that conclusion.
I dont have enough faith in Henry quite yet, the kid is young and can learn alot still

[Ossington Mental Youth]

A bit like saying you prefer Filet mignon to Big Macs. Wynne makes $300K.

and is technically terrible.
hes fast but thats about it.