Sticking up for Dunfield and Harden

[Yohan]

Because I really hate the witch hunt mentality. We, the TFC supporters (and Torontonians in general), love to pick on one or two particular players.

I say we need to stop. Criticise when required, but give praise when due too.

Dunfield and Harden are pretty much depth squad players in an MLS team. For their skill sets and salary (they both cost about 65k, based upon last year's salary list), you get value for what they bring to the team.

Take Wed night's game for example. I've seen many criticize Dunfield still, when I thought he had a good game, just as good as JDG did. Yes, he made a few gaffs, esp the one he slipped, but Dunfield played his heart out, and I'd say without his efforts on the pitch, doing his DM destroyer thing, cutting out passes, being physical against Santos attackers, playing short simple but effect passes, TFC would have lost. (just as much as it was a team collective defensive effort)

Ty Harden is not the flashiest, or most talented of defenders, but ever since he put on the jersey in Toronto, he's been improving remarkably. Still not to the point he should be starting every game, but he brings hard nose physical element to the game. Did anyone else catch that great last second tackle that stopped a Santos breakaway in 2nd half? The one that if he mistimed it by half a sec, he would have cost a penalty? He does that a lot actually.
The fact that Harden survived Winter's purge when a lot of his former teammates (Peterson, Gargan, etc) shoot their mouths off, kept his head down and willing to learn says something about Harden.

I think Dunfield and Harden are two of the hardest working players on the team, and still do their job professionally, no matter how much stick a lot of people give them. I think a lot of people have unreasonable expectations when it comes to a lot of our players. Dunfield isn't Makelele, so don't judge him as one. Harden isn't Rio Ferdinand either. We need to temper down our expectations and rate these players based upon their role and value to the team.

This is MLS. Your team will have at least few guys like Dunfield and Harden that are expected to provide depth for low salary. For their salary and their role on the team, I think Dunfield and Harden are excellent members of the squad.

[JuliquE]

Because I really hate the witch hunt mentality. We, the TFC supporters (and Torontonians in general), love to pick on one or two particular players.

I say we need to stop. Criticise when required, but give praise when due too.

Dunfield and Harden are pretty much depth squad players in an MLS team. For their skill sets and salary (they both cost about 65k, based upon last year's salary list), you get value for what they bring to the team.

Take Wed night's game for example. I've seen many criticize Dunfield still, when I thought he had a good game, just as good as JDG did. Yes, he made a few gaffs, esp the one he slipped, but Dunfield played his heart out, and I'd say without his efforts on the pitch, doing his DM destroyer thing, cutting out passes, being physical against Santos attackers, playing short simple but effect passes, TFC would have lost. (just as much as it was a team collective defensive effort)

Ty Harden is not the flashiest, or most talented of defenders, but ever since he put on the jersey in Toronto, he's been improving remarkably. Still not to the point he should be starting every game, but he brings hard nose physical element to the game. Did anyone else catch that great last second tackle that stopped a Santos breakaway in 2nd half? The one that if he mistimed it by half a sec, he would have cost a penalty? He does that a lot actually.
The fact that Harden survived Winter's purge when a lot of his former teammates (Peterson, Gargan, etc) shoot their mouths off, kept his head down and willing to learn says something about Harden.

I think Dunfield and Harden are two of the hardest working players on the team, and still do their job professionally, no matter how much stick a lot of people give them. I think a lot of people have unreasonable expectations when it comes to a lot of our players. Dunfield isn't Makelele, so don't judge him as one. Harden isn't Rio Ferdinand either. We need to temper down our expectations and rate these players based upon their role and value to the team.

This is MLS. Your team will have at least few guys like Dunfield and Harden that are expected to provide depth for low salary. For their salary and their role on the team, I think Dunfield and Harden are excellent members of the squad.

Amen.

Probably could have highlighted your whole post, but I tried to find just a few points well worth emphasizing.

[trane]

Because I really hate the witch hunt mentality. We, the TFC supporters (and Torontonians in general), love to pick on one or two particular players.

I say we need to stop. Criticise when required, but give praise when due too.

Dunfield and Harden are pretty much depth squad players in an MLS team. For their skill sets and salary (they both cost about 65k, based upon last year's salary list), you get value for what they bring to the team.

Take Wed night's game for example. I've seen many criticize Dunfield still, when I thought he had a good game, just as good as JDG did. Yes, he made a few gaffs, esp the one he slipped, but Dunfield played his heart out, and I'd say without his efforts on the pitch, doing his DM destroyer thing, cutting out passes, being physical against Santos attackers, playing short simple but effect passes, TFC would have lost. (just as much as it was a team collective defensive effort)

Ty Harden is not the flashiest, or most talented of defenders, but ever since he put on the jersey in Toronto, he's been improving remarkably. Still not to the point he should be starting every game, but he brings hard nose physical element to the game. Did anyone else catch that great last second tackle that stopped a Santos breakaway in 2nd half? The one that if he mistimed it by half a sec, he would have cost a penalty? He does that a lot actually.
The fact that Harden survived Winter's purge when a lot of his former teammates (Peterson, Gargan, etc) shoot their mouths off, kept his head down and willing to learn says something about Harden.

I think Dunfield and Harden are two of the hardest working players on the team, and still do their job professionally, no matter how much stick a lot of people give them. I think a lot of people have unreasonable expectations when it comes to a lot of our players. Dunfield isn't Makelele, so don't judge him as one. Harden isn't Rio Ferdinand either. We need to temper down our expectations and rate these players based upon their role and value to the team.

This is MLS. Your team will have at least few guys like Dunfield and Harden that are expected to provide depth for low salary. For their salary and their role on the team, I think Dunfield and Harden are excellent members of the squad.

I agree with you on Dunfield, I think he is a solid depth DM. I agree that Harden has improved. I am starting to be OK with him as a depth (MLS) player, but still your comment highlights his problem, the same type of tackle cost us a goal against LA, and as you pointed out could have been a penalty in either game. My main issue with him that he seems not to know when to be physical, he seems to give to much space outside of the box, were you can be physical with little consequences and often too aggressive (sliding tackles etc.) in the box which can lead to penalties, and other problems (own goals). But I do agree he has improved and is a decent depth player. I do not think the issue with him is talent, in the sense, he has decent size, decent athleticism, but decision making, and instincts. Like he has not played as CB all his live, in fact last year I thought we were trying to convert him to CB, until someone told me that it was the position he had played professionally.

[Yohan]

I agree with you on Dunfield, I think he is a solid depth DM. I agree that Harden has improved. I am starting to be OK with him as a depth (MLS) player, but still your comment highlights his problem, the same type of tackle cost us a goal against LA, and as you pointed out could have been a penalty in either game. My main issue with him that he seems not to know when to be physical, he seems to give to much space outside of the box, were you can be physical with little consequences and often too aggressive (sliding tackles etc.) in the box which can lead to penalties, and other problems (own goals). But I do agree he has improved and is a decent depth player. I do not think the issue with him is talent, in the sense, he has decent size, decent athleticism, but decision making, and instincts. Like he has not played as CB all his live, in fact last year I thought we were trying to convert him to CB, until someone told me that it was the position he had played professionally.

That own goal at LA was pretty unlucky. Harden stretched to slide in, and I was surprised that he actually managed to get a foot on the ball. Unlucky that the ball went in on the net. And Robbie Keane would have scored if Harden missed the ball (well, probably 99% of the time). And if Harden did miss that ball, we'd all be yelling at him for not trying hard enough to try to block the shot... Just how many own goals has Harden scored? One?

And Harden is one of few players on TFC that actually can play with both feet. At least, he looks like he's somewhat comfortable using his left foot once in a while.

[Jack]

We also need to remember that these two are in the lineup due to injuries. They're depth players being used in the roles for which they are paid: as depth. If they were all we had, then we'd be in trouble, but Cann is back on the bench, while Frings is still a few weeks away, both of whom should push these guys to the bench. Don't forget that Doneil Henry is also around, whose confidence must be rather high after scoring against the US.

[ManUtd4ever]

I have never questioned the work ethic of both Dunfield and Harden. Their distribution skills leave something to be desired, but this is MLS after all, and the salary cap implications are self explanatory.

That being said, they are both reserve calibre players on this team once the roster is healthy.

[Red Rat]

but, but, but...
if we don't burn someone at the stake the gods will be angry and we will never win again

[Jack]

but, but, but...
if we don't burn someone at the stake the gods will be angry and we will never win again

We should burn that Marcel guy.

I firmly believe that, the bigger the paycheque, the bigger the expectations. The guys who should be getting the brunt of our scrutiny are JDG, Frings and Koev.

[Roogsy]

Totally agree Yohan.

Picking on the players that make the least is like picking on the smallest player on a basketball team for not rebounding enough.

We should burn that Marcel guy.

I firmly believe that, the bigger the paycheque, the bigger the expectations. The guys who should be getting the brunt of our scrutiny are JDG, Frings and Koev.

Agreed...on both points.

[trane]

That own goal at LA was pretty unlucky. Harden stretched to slide in, and I was surprised that he actually managed to get a foot on the ball. Unlucky that the ball went in on the net. And Robbie Keane would have scored if Harden missed the ball (well, probably 99% of the time). And if Harden did miss that ball, we'd all be yelling at him for not trying hard enough to try to block the shot... Just how many own goals has Harden scored? One?

And Harden is one of few players on TFC that actually can play with both feet. At least, he looks like he's somewhat comfortable using his left foot once in a while.

Sure it was unlucky. But slide tackles from the back in the box often lead to unlucky results. As I said he should have gotten physical with Keane prior to him getting that deep, marking a player for a CB should be done by getting as close and physical as possible without following, that is why size is important, the usually bigger CB can muscle the smaller player around, without tripping putting his hands on him. Not lunge at the player when he is feet from the goal. Anyway as I said he is ok as a depth player.

[trane]

but, but, but...
if we don't burn someone at the stake the gods will be angry and we will never win again

We have been burning people at the stake from day one and it has worked so well for us. Why change now?

[Yohan]

Sure it was unlucky. But slide tackles from the back in the box often lead to unlucky results. As I said he should have gotten physical with Keane prior to him getting that deep, marking a player for a CB should be done by getting as close and physical as possible without following, that is why size is important, the usually bigger CB can muscle the smaller player around, without tripping putting his hands on him. Not lunge at the player when he is feet from the goal. Anyway as I said he is ok as a depth player.

I watched that replay again and Harden was trying to mark two players because Eck was too far up. Harden was marking Magee I think, saw that Frings I think (gasp) wasn't tracking Keane, and by the time Harden adjusted his marking, Keane and Donovan were off to the races

[Stouffville_RPB]

100% agree on stopping the witch hunting. Players make mistakes from time to time and the second they make a memorable one most people here don't let it go.

Harden has come a long way since he first dawned the TFC kit. He was dreadful at first but now is at a point where he is a serviceable depth player (which is what he will be when the squad is healthy again).

Dunfield did play like shit on Saturday and deserved to get ripped but again people need to look at what he is on the team and that is normally a depth/bench player. For that he is a good player at this level.

[T-boy]

Agreed with the OP totally.

I think Dunfield is an ok player. And lets put it this way...he's eanring 150k, compared to JDG earning 1.9 million? Which is the better value? Yes, without doubt its Dunfield!

And Harden is a vastly improved player over the last season, you can't knock him at all for his efforts.

TFC fans have always had the witchhunt mentality. Over the last season its been Gargen, then Harden, then Iro, and now Dunfield (and Harden again). People seem, to think that if we lost one player, then the whole of TFC would improve. But that isn't the case, its a TEAM sport, not an individual player sport. Changing Harden for any other CB right now wouldn't change the fact that TFC are playing a high offside line.

[trane]

Yohan,

Ecks tends to get caught up, and that makes it difficult on the CBs, however, if you are marking two players then you need to drop back deeper, guard the goal and to speak to be in the position to block shots because marking is useless. and adjust to who ever has the ba


Having said that Harden is hardly the reason for our woes. It is a team game, and as a team we have improved, but not enough yet.


There is not such thing as a perfect team that needs no improvment in any area. Barca may come as close as possible, but I would say that their lack of size upfront can limit them at times, just as an example. Look at any of the 8 teams left in the CL none of them are withouth flows, and no player is perfect, again Messi comes the closest at this time. APOEL exluded of course.

[__wowza]

dunfield i have absolutely no complaints about.. but when i first heard of harden after his first few games, i thought he was a new kid showing some sorta promise. i rated him as a new kid and told myself he could possibly be good one day. then i found out he was 28, and has played under 100 MLS games..

the issue i have with harden is not that he's not hardworking, it's just that he doesn't get it. when he makes mistakes he'll kill himself to get the ball back, but they're still his mistakes and they still happen far too often. he looks lost. he looks like any of the skill improvement he shows is just because he's been playing for so long. his skills haven't developed, he's just been playing long enough to know how the squad works. under the defensive minded preki, harden would play as far down the depth chart as was allowed.

my problem yohan, is that im not rating him compared to any of the big name players, it's just that when i watch replays and can think of "who was marking him?", "who was tracking him?", "who was supposed to be covering the pass?" harden's name comes up more than half of the time out of all of our other defenders. spectacular moments for him, seem to be when he makes a good play. im also not giving him credit for keeping his head down or playing regardless of the shit we give him. those aren't pluses, they're expectations i have with all pro athletes. you're paid to do your job and pointing out that he should be commended for doing the bare minimum like playing when give him shit is confusing at best.

[iy12l]

burgos > dunfield
Doneil > Harden

Why not play them instead? Seriously Burgos is not only good at passing but he can also help out in attack and probably score some goals too which I dont think Dunfield can do. Doneil is faster and I bet he can read the game better than harden. Also Doneil is only 18 so he can learn the 4-3-3 easily where harden is still showing difficulty to adapt still.

[Jack]

Henry was with the national team. We have enough attackers on the pitch, Dunfield is a defensive-minded midfielder, which is needed without Frings and Cann.

[Code Red]

I think every team in MLS and probably every club around the world has fans who criticize a player or multiple players. Its what fans do. Armchair analysts have always existed and will continue to exist, no matter what. It's easy to throw guys under the bus. However I do agree that both Dunfield and Harden have been working hard so far this season. Their work ethic cannot be questioned but unfortunately the occasional lapses/mistakes will overshadow their positive contributions sometimes.

[KRO]

Thank you for this thread. Dunfield in particular seems to get unfairly burned in this forum. His work rate and attitude are second to none, he wins a lot of tackles in midfield and defense and distributes very well. I think he will be given a lot more minutes than we expect this season. Maybe his critics are all Man Utd fans who can't stand that he played for City.

Harden is also an honest hard working player but he is prone to error and sometimes has disaster games (Philly last year and last Saturday). It's very rare that defenders get pulled from a game because they are not playing well and this has happened to him in both those games. His main problem is that he is not good with the ball at his feet. The system TFC plays demands that he should be and you can see the opposition targetting him when he has the ball. He makes a couple of bad passes then his confidence goes and his whole game is affected. Hopefully with Cann, Henry, Frings back soon he will become the useful squad player that he is.

[Jack]

Thank you for this thread. Dunfield in particular seems to get unfairly burned in this forum. His work rate and attitude are second to none, he wins a lot of tackles in midfield and defense and distributes very well. I think he will be given a lot more minutes than we expect this season. Maybe his critics are all Man Utd fans who can't stand that he played for City.

Harden is also an honest hard working player but he is prone to error and sometimes has disaster games (Philly last year and last Saturday). It's very rare that defenders get pulled from a game because they are not playing well and this has happened to him in both those games. His main problem is that he is not good with the ball at his feet. The system TFC plays demands that he should be and you can see the opposition targetting him when he has the ball. He makes a couple of bad passes then his confidence goes and his whole game is affected. Hopefully with Cann, Henry, Frings back soon he will become the useful squad player that he is.

I think a lot of the hate comes from a lack of understanding of the game. People also tend to get overemotional and need a lightning rod.

[brad]

burgos > dunfield
Doneil > Harden

Why not play them instead? Seriously Burgos is not only good at passing but he can also help out in attack and probably score some goals too which I dont think Dunfield can do. Doneil is faster and I bet he can read the game better than harden. Also Doneil is only 18 so he can learn the 4-3-3 easily where harden is still showing difficulty to adapt still.

Burgos has never played a competitive match at this level so you have no idea if he is better than Dunfield or not. How do you know he is better? (and don't say pre-season match - that doesn't show much of anything)

How exactly do we play Henry when he is away with Canada?

[backbeat]

I completely agree - it's also nice to see a thread like this

we spend far too much time putting our own players down - no problem pointing out errors in a match etc. but to relentlessly pound one of our own makes zero sense to me

when this team gets healthy these 2 are solid back-ups and quite frankly the depth that Mariner and Winter have built is showing now...

[Red4ever]

Burgos has never played a competitive match at this level so you have no idea if he is better than Dunfield or not. How do you know he is better? (and don't say pre-season match - that doesn't show much of anything)

How exactly do we play Henry when he is away with Canada?

+1 - unreal.

[spark]

+1 - unreal.

+2 that is a crazy statement. If you saw our season opener last year and the Canada Ecuador match you know Dunfield can score. I think we are lucky to have a player like him who provides that depth - someone who has good experience, an amazing attitude, always willing to get stuck in and battle and isn't afraid to receive the ball. His consistency hasn't been great, but he's had some very solid games that, to me, show he's alot better than we've had over the last five years.

[T-boy]

The "problem" some people have with Dunfield is his position, and what he's been asked to do by Winter, rather than the player himself. I've seen Dunfield score a cracker for Canada, and he can spray a great 40 yard pass out (he did one in the Laguna game) - but Winter is asking him to stick in midfield and not get sucked out of position or tactic - so its making Dunfield look like a pedestrian sometimes. Dunfield isn't a "flair" player at all, but he's got more in him than the DM role he's being asked to play, that's for sure.

Dunfield reminds me of Sandra playing for Spurs sometimes. Remember last season when Sandro scored that goal and Redknapp nearly murdered him for it? Winter is like that for Dunfield - he's asking him to play conservatively, play the short pass and play out to the wings and stick in position, whereas Dunfield has more ability that just short passing and running in short circles.

[Jack]

I'm not sure, T-boy. I saw Dunny do some pretty lacklustre things with the ball in the attacking third on Wednesday evening.

[TFCBarrie]

Whole heartedly agree with Yohan and the majority in this thread, commitment and hard work should be celebrated.

[Jack]

Winning should be celebrated. Commitment and hard work should be applauded.

[brandrews]

if dunfield had been here year one, he would have been the original poty.

i am very appreciative of what carl robinson brought to this club in the first couple of seasons, but i would take terry dunfield over him in a heartbeat. in my opinion, dunfield is at least as good of a ball winner, more industrious, and has much better distribution, along with being a potential threat from distance.

i realize the team structure and system is completely different at this point, but something to think about.