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By that rationale, the LA game was won by Ryan Johnson and Winter should not get credit for that either.Originally Posted by jabbronies
For the record, I don't buy either. Just stating the illogical nature of giving credit on the one hand for success but excusing failure on the other.
After I heard that post-game interview, in which shows some frustration, and states the need to make chances ASAP, I would give him another 6 games, to try to turn the ship around.
This is the fifth year, that I give the manager 10 games to show me that he can do something positive after a shit start. This is getting OLD.
I wasn't aware that it was this badNigel Reed threw out a statistic in his article today that I had not seen before.
6 wins in 38 MLS games.
I don't care if you did have to rebuild last year, that statistic is disgusting.
If he does not have a better month in April, my rating will most definitely drop.
^ WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW. I Did not see that. So much for the theory that we have too quick of a trigger in Toronto. Rebuild or not that stat is horrible. 6 games. That is all. [ I like winter, but as they say Wins talk, losses walk-or something like that]
I don't agree with this at all. It's a bad example you've used.
If you want to give one player credit for winning a game over the manager, then use the "Miracle in Montreal" as an example. That game was won by Dero and only Dero. The manager had nothing to do with that win. Sure I can agree with that.
But you are now saying that the whole game was carried by Ryan Johnson and if it weren't for him, they would not have gotten that result. I don't buy that. I thought the majority of the team played decent in L.A. and when the majority of the team plays well, you give credit to the manager for that.
Santos was lost by the Deguzman penalty as well as his overall poor play. We got a result at BMO because Deguzman was on. He didn't show up for that last game. You can give credit to the CBs for the Santos loss as well - 4 goals given up by the CBs alone (combination of poor man marking, another PK).
Half of what I've spoken about above doesn't happen, then that 6th goal doesn't happen either and TFC are in that game.
Last edited by jabbronies; 04-09-2012 at 06:16 PM.
I hate it when people say "we won the game b/c of Joe Smith" or likewise we lost it b/c of one person to...
There will always be heroes - There will always be goats... But this is a team game - WIN AS A UNIT / LOSE AS A UNIT...
For every 4-goal hero, there is 5-perfect passes or great tackles that are lost in the headlines...
For every missed marking in the box leading to a goal, there is a ball that wasn't tracked in the infield that led to the cross...
Win as a team... Lose as a team...
"...Money wasn't tight, but it like, it wasn't right..."
For the most part, sure. It's a team game, every player does their part etc etc.
But are you saying that games have not been won on the shoulders of one player before? When a team doesn't deserve to win, but 1 player stands on his head and he's the reason why they won? or on the flip side lost?
I can name a bunch of players in pro sports where this is an obvious case.
Pls don't say Messi. Xavi is the reason Messi is Messi.
I think I want to downgrade my rating to 1. My original score of 2 was based on our victory over LA. However, I now realise that LA are the only team in the league who are playing (possibly) worse than TFC! LA are in chaos right now, and are half the team they were last season without Gonzales.
I originally thought beating LA was amazing, and thought they would be the best team in the league - but right now LA aren't playing well at all, so I now take much less gratification from that victory.
That's not a very popular position to take. I made the same point about Dallas, even though the facts reveal it was the truth, and was soundly booed.
With regards to our current performance, I'd like to point out a couple of numbers that put an 0-4 start in perspective.
In order to qualify for playoffs, we will likely need at least 45 points, the benchmark set last year for playoffs was 46.
In order to reach 45 points, we will need to play at a 1.5 points per game clip. For points like that, we need a record of something like (W-D-L):
13-6-11
12-9-9
11-12-7
10-15-5
9-18-3
And that is to JUST squeak into a playoff spot in the 10th position.
IF we lose against Chivas this Saturday or if we fail to score a win in either of the next 2 games (the following being RSL) all of sudden we will need to score at a 1.60 points per game clip.
How hard is that?
Let's put it this way. The top 4 teams in the league last year finished with a 1.56 or higher PPG. Meaning we'd have to play like a top 4 team the entire rest of the season just to qualify for the final playoff spot.
And to put it in even better perspective, TFC has never won more than 9 games in a single season.
That's what a bad start to the season does to your playoff chances. It puts enormous amounts of pressure on the remainder of the season. It's unbelievable the effect the first few games has but it leaves no room for error the rest of the way.
So those of us who are very upset with this start aren't doing so because we like being the Harbingers of Doom, but a cold dose of reality tells us all that there is plenty of reason to be worried. We need full points in 1 of the next two games or our MLS season is almost over before it even starts.
I realize people are weighing CCL as more "important" and it very well could be from a purist "football" perspective. But the reality is that we give the CCL more prestige because it shares similar elements to the UEFA and CONMEBOL versions, not because in and of itself it is actually more prestigious. The Canadian allocation into the tournament is almost a gift (for whatever team that is in it, not just TFC). What else can you call the entry if you play 4 games and get awarded the title of "champion"? Regardless, if you place more importance on that tournament and want the team to do well, I have no problems with that. But I simply cannot agree that the NCC and the CCL are more accurate reflections of the state of this team than the league is. I measure this team's performance on league results, not the 4, 10 or 12 games we play a year in NCC/CCL.
I don't think any of the bolded are impossible.
There is also the fact that it is NOT the top 10 teams, they take from each division.
Now that a lot more intra-division games are going to be played, if we see NYRB and SKC keep on rocking we could have some crazy skewed result where as few as 40pts get you into the playoffs.
Of course it would be nice if we already had 4-6 points.
Roogsy gave as good an argument as I've seen. The MLS start has been a disaster.
No, not impossible. But extremely difficult. Remember my point that TFC has never won in the double digits. Under this scenario, we now HAVE to win minimum 10 games in the 30 game schedule that is left. That means we HAVE to win 1 out of every 3 games. Considering the number of away games are equal to the number of home games left, it makes it even more difficult. It would be easier if we had a slight home game advantage.
We also have to keep losses to a minimum. You don't have to win 13 games if you draw a heckuvalot on the road. I think the 12-9-9 or the 11-12-7 records are the most reachable. I don't think we are going to win 13 games and I sure don't think we are going to only lose 3 more games in the entire season. So these 2 records are the most reachable I think. But even then, that means any losses will be extremely damaging to our chances, moreso than usual.
Like I said, we need to be a top 4 team the rest of the way just to make the playoffs in the final spots. Do you think we will be able to achieve kind of performance for thirty games?
Possible? Yes.
Likely? I say no.
Last edited by Roogsy; 04-11-2012 at 11:30 AM.
^ The numbers do not lie. Bottom line that after all the time we have had starting 0-4 against beatable opponents is not acceptable.
Your rationality is making me very angry...
I agree with Roogsy 100%
We have already given us a mountain to climb. It's not impossible, but its a lot less easy than if we had 6 point on the table already!
And if we don't get at LEAST 3 points in the next 2 home games, then we are going to need to beat some of the best teams away from home, AND be unbeaten (or as near as possible) at home for the rest of the season.
It's not IMPOSSIBLE, but I'd say its improbably!
not that it makes much of a difference, but we won 10 games in 2009
I'm sure there has been a game or two where is was all Messi, I can't give a specific examplebecause I don't really follow Barca at all to know.
But I can name a few other players who have come up with performances that have basically carried teams in games: Micheal Jordan ('92 final game), Curtus Joseph (92 playoffs), Roger Clemens (20 strikeout game)
Obviously there are key players to a individuals success, but c'mon let's not get so picky and say "oh if he were the only player on the field, would he have scored at all." That's an obvious NO. But there are games where a single player can be pointed to for success of the team. "Miracle in Montreal" is one example. Sure there were 11 guys on the pitch and a couple other players scored, but can you honestly say that TFC would've won without Dero's performance.."again, this is just one example.
Last edited by jabbronies; 04-11-2012 at 12:34 PM.
TFC anthem...
Ah...if I could only grow my hair like that. Just a couple of weeks long and it looks like a Gia Pet. Hence the shave.
The flip side of the coin is that IF we do make it into the playoffs, it will definitely be an undeniable accomplishment.
This is where you separate the men from the boys.
Last edited by Roogsy; 04-11-2012 at 12:45 PM.
My apologies. You are correct.
We also lost the least amount, with 11 losses.
It was our best year to date. The closest we ever got to the playoffs. But it was also the year of the debacle in NY which broke many of our hearts. It is why we went into 2010 with such high hopes.
I know for me personally, these two years are what I feel exemplify what went wrong with TFC. We had a very good foundation. Smart moves by management could have made us contenders. Instead, every move they made thereafter was the wrong one and did unspeakable damage to this team.
sorry sir, wrong.
but go on with the topic
Ok, Iniesta too.
would you like to discuss this here.
http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/showth...08#post1472108
Well, not really unspeakable, we're talking about it every day. But wow, who would have ever thought 2009 was going to be the high water mark?
Still, as you say, when we make the playoffs this year it will be sweet (you did say 'when' didn't you?).
I remember that, in the rain, first kick and we have our patented lapse(in that game more then a lapse) of defensive concertration, from second 1 and New York runs right down our gut, past our Star DP CDM, past our, CBs and into goal. FUCK ME. Yeah, that broke my heart, and proved every fear that I had correct. That there is something rotten at the chore of our organizations, to allow such performances on a repeat basis. That could have been our worst game EVER.
TACTICS - 2
He has good ideas formation-wise but some of his starter choices have baffled me along with the dreaded high D-line at the most inopportune moments.
RESULTS - 2
Should have won against Columbus and San Jose in my opinion. Both bad losses at home. The CCL performance raised this grade to a 2 for me.
EFFICIENCY - 3
At times he made something out of nothing. Let's face it we are not the most talented squad in the MLS but he has found some ways around it that proved to be successful to some extent in the CCL.
COMMUNICATION - 2
Like all MLSE coaches, his statements are very general and not harsh enough in some cases. He often justifies his lineup with lines such as "I have confidence in Harden." Well I think he should expand as to why he feels that way.
TRADES & MISC - 1
To me this is the biggest thing. A few bad contracts and a few underachievers make up the majority of our squad. I believe a lot more could have been done during the off season. If there are Brazilian players willing to go to sub-par leagues in Eastern Europe, I am sure a few of them would not mind playing up here.
Overall: 2 - LOTS of room for improvement!
Agreed. It is particularly disappointing to start this MLS season on such a sour note after the club finished last season with signs of encouragement in league play and started this season with a bang in the CCL.
It seems our fate rests on the shoulders of a 37 year old world class field general. If Frings cannot stay healthy upon his return, it could unfortunately be a very long season yet again.
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