Originally Posted by phonzo
^ This
^ This
I started booing at 3-0 when 8 out of 10 players were not running back on the play while I had lost my voice watching a team who could not deliver a decent ball in the box. I then continued booing when our 900k jewel made an "I don't give a f*** pass" in the 93rd minute of play, which summed up the entire match! I pay money, I sing, I encourage, I'm back ON TIME for the second half and I do not leave until well after the final whistle. I believe that entitles me to boo after a 0-3 effort-lacking home opener against San Josey.
I've always felt this topic was akin to walking on very thin ice. Anything that is said can backfire immediately, and in the past, the cries of "you're not a supporter if..." have resonated.
However, here's my personal opinion on the matter.
When the team is playing poorly, or not stepping up, and the players themselves look up at the stands and see ~1000-2500 supporters still chanting, singing, clapping, smiling, etc etc, it immediately appeases any negative feelings they have.
I cringe when I look at the highlights or watch a game at home, and see Toronto FC give away an easy goal, and the camera then pans over to the supporters groups who are still jumping, laughing.
There is a difference between supporting and cheerleading, just like the difference between spoiling a child and tough love. If the players get constant, positive feedback, they are spoiled for it, and in turn, there's no incentive to try to "make it up" to the fans - they know that no matter what happens, that drum will still be beating, that the core will still be partying in the stands.
However, with some tough love (booing, for example) the supporters can send a message to the team that sometimes what they do is not good enough, sometimes the lack of effort or simple mistakes are not forgivable. JDG commented on how easy the culture is here - there is simply no pressure to perform outside of winning a contract.
Yes, yes and yes. Especially the cheer leading bit.
Personally I don't think shitting on players during the game is a good idea. Ou wanna do it, go for it, I won't stop you. You shouldn't be shitting on your fellow supporter if he choose to keep giving it their all though. If seeing people jumping and chanting makes their guilt go away during the game, I think we have done our job. Don't worry they will feel like shit after the game if they have any love for this team and its fans.
Agreed. It was an awful game all around.
I do. I was in the middle of 112 and it was complete crap.
You're right. People have been resting on their laurels for years. The whole "we're the best supporters in the league" got to people's heads at some point.
No it won't. The shit play on the pitch will. There has always been a divide between the casual fan and the SG's. (in every club the world over)
You should have looked a few rows above you in 112. He was singing his heart out all game long.
It's time we stop thinking that we have a role to play other than being there. Anyone who was there and paying attention was being treated to a horror show. We need to have some effort shown to us to justify the singing and the chanting. This is not meant to offend, but I found it got embarrassing by the end. I was wishing the drumming and any attempts at singing would stop. I couldn't fathom what would make anyone want to join in. Most people around me were in a state of shock, or were It's time for TFC to deliver. We can't go on being expected to sing while watching garbage performances,
If I was to base my support solely on performance and results, I would have put a bullet in my head a couple seasons ago.
I mean it's just weird at a certain point. I'm there encouraging the team, but I think in year 6 it's time that results actually start to have an impact on people. I was in no singing mood on Saturday, and for people to expect it seems odd.
We have a big role to play right here. If you read the Paul James book, it's interesting. The Voyageurs boards had a huge impact on the coaches and locker room.
imho the general reaction to the game yesterday is extreme, bordering on ridiculous. This was not a "horror show" in the way that least 5 different home games were horror shows last year.
Last edited by ensco; 03-25-2012 at 07:55 PM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
i have been noticing as well the other supporter groups across MLS have raised there game big time in the last few years and i feel we have been falling behind (the sky dome match was an exception) and we have been letting Toronto down. But then i think, we have had what 5 losing years, not even making the playoffs once....i don't think any other team in this league would ever still be getting 18k-21k fans a game, most other MLS stadiums would be empty and team would probably have to move cities after having 5 shit seasons like we have had, and having a start like that to our 6th season just makes it that much worse!
Last edited by james; 03-25-2012 at 08:14 PM.
I honestly think it would be of great benefit to have an open forum on the topic of support. Not online, but in person. People need to have an open dialogue about where we've come from, where we are now, and where we plan on going. Results will obviously rejuvenate us, but results are far from inevitable. In the end, the people in the stands determine what works and what doesn't. They won't be dictated to, you can't impose anything on them. Yet we've never really had them, or better yet given them the opportunity to come forward and tell us (and by us I'm speaking from the perspective of capos/banner/chant team) what they envision moving forward. We have the potential to be the best fans in the league, and we shouldn't let that potential go to waste.
exactly
stuff like that should be happening keyman, but sadly no one in those authority positions will do it, and any outsider organizing it, won't be taken seriously
and not just rpb talking amongst rpb, this should be all groups and people that are not associated with groups that are still supporters
You're right it wasn't. I was there in New York when we could taste playoffs minutes before the game. Only to have our hopes dashed a few minutes later when the game started. THAT was a horror show. Not the match on the weekend.
Do you only sing when we're winning?
Sorry, but you're wrong. And as Ensco said, it wasn't a "horror show".
I totally Agree!
I can't help but feel this thread has gone off-topic for the vast majority of thoughts after the op's. While Phonzo's post was aimed at the wrong guy - simply put there are maybe 10 or 12 guys who give 110% vocally no matter the start time, weather, or teams performance - j. is one of those few and he is justified in starting this thread on a supporters board. That said, the crux of Phonzo's argument is 110% valid (sorry for my poor choice of words).
Each of us who calls ourselves a supporter and not a fan need to look within and think about what that means. If you have a voice next day, you have failed. We have many creative, artistic, and motivated folk around here that do an amazing job with banners and displays, and pick up the slack for the rest of us. All we need to do is show up and go crazy for 90 minutes. That's it. We can go back to our menial and unimportant jobs come Monday and slack there if need be. As someone said earlier, we have rested on our laurels for too long and we need to remedy that. Want to boo at the whistle to show your displeasure? I have no issue if you have done all you can do to prevent that for the previous 2 hours. Otherwise, fuck off.
It is what we make it. Look. Within. Yourself.
If you want to start spitting hairs as to how to describe the game we'll get nowhere. Not a horror show? Okay, let's go with unsettling. The point is that it's year 6. I don't only sing when we win, but I'm past the idea that I have some responsibility to sing and dance when my team is being humiliated, again. Nothing personal, I just feel it's time for the team to play their role, which is give us something to be proud to sing for.
Dear lord that game will forever haunt my psyche. Worst. Road. Game. Ever.
Listen to what this man is saying, it is a great idea. We can all just sit around and bitch on a message board... watch it die, or be proactive and do something about it. This needs to addressed.
Moderator
I'd say this is the fairest post thus far on the matter. I think I've boo'ed TFC once at a match, and that was for the dismal performance in 2008 when we lost the Canadian Championship to...ugh....fucking Montreal at BMO Field. If I were in the crowd for the home opener on Saturday, I may have boo'ed then as well, but it's not something myself or I think many other supporters do lightly. My opinion on the whole matter is simple. I'm going to cheer and sing for this team and it's players as long as I feel they want to win and compete with dignity. But when they give up or get distracted from that goal, I don't see why I have to watch it happen and just keep my thoughts to myself.
I've always agreed that our number one priority is to help motivate the team and raise morale, while also distracting the opponents during game time. Like I said, however, we I don't believe we should be expected to do that when the team is just flat-out playing terribly. As for the inappropriate cheers and displays, it's always been a problem since day 1, but luckily I think a lot more people than not know the best times to jump and cheer and sing, and when to shut up and settle down.When the team is playing poorly, or not stepping up, and the players themselves look up at the stands and see ~1000-2500 supporters still chanting, singing, clapping, smiling, etc etc, it immediately appeases any negative feelings they have.
I cringe when I look at the highlights or watch a game at home, and see Toronto FC give away an easy goal, and the camera then pans over to the supporters groups who are still jumping, laughing.
Yep.There is a difference between supporting and cheerleading, just like the difference between spoiling a child and tough love. If the players get constant, positive feedback, they are spoiled for it, and in turn, there's no incentive to try to "make it up" to the fans - they know that no matter what happens, that drum will still be beating, that the core will still be partying in the stands.
However, with some tough love (booing, for example) the supporters can send a message to the team that sometimes what they do is not good enough, sometimes the lack of effort or simple mistakes are not forgivable. JDG commented on how easy the culture is here - there is simply no pressure to perform outside of winning a contract.
Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.
holy fuck,
the team just won its biggest game ever on the road and about to play the biggest game in history on wed.
Yes a shitty performance in seattle and the home opener, but we are hardly in "booing situations" Yet
Firstly, no matter how MLSE tried to market the game, 48000 people in skydome would tell you that saturday vs San Jose was most certainly NOT TFC's home opener. League opener at home? Sure. Home opener? No. There a difference? Massively. The fact that it was the home opener was the main reason I was confident on people filling the dome. Had it not been the home opener that wouldn't have happened.
Secondly. After 5 years of shite team after shite team, to see the club play so freaking poorly to San Jose after getting dummied by Seattle? If people paid their hard earned money to go see the game, they've earned the right to boo if that's what they want to do.
Thirdly. Despite MLSE marketing, ego etc, the south end can't influence the rest of the stadium too much. Either people are excited for the match and excited to be there... or they figured they'd buy the ticket package and go to some games and check it out to see if TFC finally turned it around yet. Nothing anyone not on the pitch can do will make them engaged. If you're in the south end giving your all, who gives a flying fuck what other people do? You support your way, they support theirs. The fact that after 5 years someone still purchased a ticket says that no matter how you want to slice it, they are fans, and have earned the right to make their voices heard as much as anyone else in the stadium.
It was unsettling. Well put.
re "booing", I think the time for accounting is later in the season, it's just too soon. It's all about Wednesday now.
I'll be "booing" them in May if they aren't better than last year, guaranteed. (btw I barely sing at all, I "boo" or "cheer" here. I'm too into the game and/or talking about it to whoever I came with...and maybe too old for the game day stuff!)
Last edited by ensco; 03-26-2012 at 07:31 AM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Every year we get off to a rocky start at the home opener, it never fails. I think where the deep rooted issue comes in is from the Rogers center experience going so well.
Its early season and I am confident all the support through out the stadium will pick up. Hopefully the players will start responding to MLS play as well.
Boos are justifiable... This is not Europe where football is the only game in town. Outside of the supporters the fans can disappear very quickly.
We are not aren't asking to win by 5 goals every game, but at least show the fans you are there to compete. When it seems like that is not happening, then boo away.
being there (the first time ive ever been in the SS with a ticket) i can honestly say that there was a combination of factors. frings and frei being out, go train running late, 5 games being played in 14 days, the weather, etc. these arent things we've had to worry about in previous seasons. half of the time i couldnt hear the capos communicating with each other because of the wind and they were yelling at each other to start chants up.
i cant say more past what's been said, but personally i find it hard to cheer past 3 goals. the first two, ok, pick yourself up, we're still here, after the third there didn't seem to be a way back. i think some people have a mistaken sense of what should be done in the stands, and here's my opinion on it, if you're not trying, nothing should we. it's not our job to get players off their asses and back into the game after they aren't giving the effort. if i see 11 men out there giving their all for 90 minutes, then they have my support. if they aren't i'd like to casually remind them that i'm paying money to watch them play, and NOT to be their own personal motivation machine. come into the game motivated, stay in the game motivated, and if you need a reminder, look south. but don't expect us to carry you for a full 90.
i wouldnt boo, but i can see why others would.
take all of the above and multiply that by what seems to be a few people who've just picked up seasons seats, and you've got your lack of atmosphere. seriously there were two girls right in front of me who apparently were holding tickets in the supporters section and it was their first TFC game. i thought they were someones girlfriends or wives, so i held off asking too many questions.
i dont know. can we not get into questioning the group so early in the season?
call it resentment, call it what you will, but it's exactly what phonzo said. please don't criticize atmosphere you may have had absolutely no part in creating. i know a lot of people that arent even in the city that contribute anyway they possibly can, even if they dont make it out to games. hell, for most of the past 2 seasons i held viewing parties in scarborough after giving the local pub owner that i can get a turnout. if i cant make it out to a banner painting session, fine, but youd better believe im in every banner thread giving them my time suggesting and designing, and not just discussing the shortfalls of the team and fans. finally, people who spend most of their time with the RPBs singing, chanting, drumming, painting TIFOs, transporting TIFOs, organizing away trips, writing chants, planning tailgates.. these are the people who are hit the hardest by a losing effort because these are the people who've spent the most of their own time/money ensuring that the red patch standard is upheld. if i don't feel like singing, it's because i've got 10 minutes left to watch of a 3-0 game and i just missed my go train.
I think there are two separate issues and things going on here:
1. The team were FLAT on Saturday. They didn't set off well out of the blocks, then just got worse as the day went on. I'm semi-agreeing that this is partly a CCL hangover - but also I worry that TFC are just starting the season badly. Ok, it was a good result IN Los Angeles - but lets not forget that we threw away a 2-0 lead in the Rogers Centre Game - then we went to Seattle and got trounced (it wasn't even close!). And now on Saturday's home opener we got beaten by a team we SHOULD be beating at home easily. There should never be an excuse not to have a good game against a team that has flown 1000 miles to play! I'm starting to worry that there is something seriously wrong in the dressing room at TFC - they've spent all winter working on the line up, and Saturday was so unpassionate, its honestly the worst home opener team I'm seen.
2. It really seems that the bubble has truly burst when it comes to fan passion and atmosphere at BMO. The crowd and atmosphere was awful on Saturday - and its been getting worse and worse every season. Now we are relegated to JUST 112/113 and the NNE singing. It USED to be that all of the south end, and all of the south east corner would sing, almost constantly. But on Saturday it was a small selection of people in 3 section of the crowd ONLY. Nobody else sang, chanted, even made much noise at all!
I remember the first two, maybe 3 season's at BMO, it was LOUD and the singing was constant. Now that is a long distant memory and its like BMO is a different place filled with VERY different people from those early season's. It's depressing to think what it USED to be likeSaturday was truly flat on AND off the field, and I'm seriously wondering if we (the supporters) will ever get the atmosphere back to where it was 3 or 4 years ago
I wasn't surprised in the least about the boo's even though I don't really do it myself and I think the team needs to know when getting results like this is not acceptable to the fans. I had alot of shit go down in my life over the night on Friday and into Saturday that I won't even get into but getting to the game was very tough for me but I made it and was excited to see the team at BMO Field finally and be back in my season seat despite the crappy weather that accompanied it (could have been worse though). Anyhow, it was hard to watch them miss chance after chance then get killed on the counter. After all I went through to be there it seems like a let down. I think the performance in the CCL games boosted the already high hopes for this season and getting on that high makes these two league games feel like an extra low but luckily there is time left in the season even though the rest of the MLS fans are probably writing us off already for the league and CCL. We have seen teams like Columbus in recent years not win in their first 9 or 10 games and then still compete for the Shield at the end of the season. TFC needs to step it up huge for the CCL. Luckily we seem to get a very different team show up for the CCL games for some reason. Optimistic fans are the only reason Toronto teams survive. I am going to try to remain one for a bit longer.
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