TFC in-season player movement thread

[Stouffville_RPB]

Though the CB's play this season hasn't been strong their mistakes are magnified because of the poor midfield play directly in front of them (JDG and Dunfield of late).

If we had a reliable (both in terms of skill and health) CB pairing and Frings could play midfield I think the difference in this team would be like night and day.

Winter knows the issues but there isn't a point in trading players or giving up picks, allocation or anything else if you don't get a permanent solution. Once management is able to dump JDG's contract the first thing I think Winter & Co. are going to do it try to sign a quality CB.

[T-boy]

Don't know if I agree with you on this, but I do hope that Winter is an experienced enough coach to know if he is the right fit for TFC by now, and whether or not he should get another chance.

Just like Winter got it right about Iro, Viator, and Davies?

Unfortunately Winter doesn't exactly have a great record of picking up centre backs so far at TFC - that's why some of us here are a little on the pessimistic side about Avecal.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Just like Winter got it right about Iro, Viator, and Davies?

Unfortunately Winter doesn't exactly have a great record of picking up centre backs so far at TFC - that's why some of us here are a little on the pessimistic side about Avecal.

Those woulda been Mariner purchases.
At least Iro is from what I remember being mentioned several times.

[Thomas]

There will always be guys that do not work out, for whatever reason. There is a degree of trial and error involved. I agree that Winter should be subject to criticism, but you do seem to be constantly pointing fingers at him. What do I know?

Just like Winter got it right about Iro, Viator, and Davies?

Unfortunately Winter doesn't exactly have a great record of picking up centre backs so far at TFC - that's why some of us here are a little on the pessimistic side about Avecal.

[T-boy]

There will always be guys that do not work out, for whatever reason. There is a degree of trial and error involved. I agree that Winter should be subject to criticism, but you do seem to be constantly pointing fingers at him. What do I know?

Don't you point the finger at the manager of ANY company in any industry that is failing? Take any job - take my own job - if my manager SUCKS, no matter how much effort I put in, my company will fail. If my manager restricts me to only working certain times or days, or working in certain styles "or I will not be working there anymore", that's then my manager's fault and not my fault, isn't it?

Winter is the manager - the head coach, and all the decisions at the club ultimately come form him at the top of the heirarchy. You can blame Mariner, but I don't believe that Winter has NO say in the signings the club make. That would be terrible for the football club.

So yes, I point fingers at Winter, as he is the top guy, the manager, and where all the decisions come from. You can't blame individual players, but you can definitely point fingers at the manager.

[TFCBarrie]

Don't you point the finger at the manager of ANY company in any industry that is failing? Take any job - take my own job - if my manager SUCKS, no matter how much effort I put in, my company will fail. If my manager restricts me to only working certain times or days, or working in certain styles "or I will not be working there anymore", that's then my manager's fault and not my fault, isn't it?

Winter is the manager - the head coach, and all the decisions at the club ultimately come form him at the top of the heirarchy. You can blame Mariner, but I don't believe that Winter has NO say in the signings the club make. That would be terrible for the football club.

So yes, I point fingers at Winter, as he is the top guy, the manager, and where all the decisions come from. You can't blame individual players, but you can definitely point fingers at the manager.

If I suck at MY job, my manager will not get fired. If I can't live up to what's expected of me, NO ONE other than myself is to blame.

[T-boy]

If I suck at MY job, my manager will not get fired. If I can't live up to what's expected of me, NO ONE other than myself is to blame.

But if your manager then hired another person who sucked, then they got fired, then hired yet another person who sucked - eventually the CEO of the company would realise that it isn't the employees who sucks, its the manager above them!

[DoubleUp]

just more excuses to fire another manager "The employees suck"

compare our starting 11 with others in mls and most of the time its men vs boys.

mariners fault for bringing shit players in and winters fault for picking them.


but whoevers finding the players! needs to up his level.

I see winters vision with his tactics but imo he needs better players in most departments to make it look as crisp as it supposed to be. higheriq/technical ability

[Ageroo]

But if your manager then hired another person who sucked, then they got fired, then hired yet another person who sucked - eventually the CEO of the company would realise that it isn't the employees who sucks, its the manager above them!

I am on neither side of the pro/com Winter debate....but I think your analogy about the manager hiring continuous employees that suck doesn't really fly. You are basing their hiring on their resume. If their resume is good you want them on your team. How they perform is essentially up to the individual themselves.

How is it the managers fault that once they get to the team that they underperform? Yes you can say he is employing the tactics...but in the end if the player looks like garbage that isn't because the manager has put him in a poor position. It is because he can't really do what is asked of him....again my opinion and not defending Winter on this.....just arguing the point being made.

[brad]

Just like Winter got it right about Iro, Viator, and Davies?

Unfortunately Winter doesn't exactly have a great record of picking up centre backs so far at TFC - that's why some of us here are a little on the pessimistic side about Avecal.

Playing devils advocate a bit here - but how much cap space is there to work with for defenders? Is it a case that he doesn't know how to pick defenders, or a case that he doesn't know how to pick defenders that will play for 5 figures or low 6 figures?

[Roogsy]

If I suck at MY job, my manager will not get fired. If I can't live up to what's expected of me, NO ONE other than myself is to blame.

In a well run business, your manager will eventually get fired if his hiring practices reveal he hires people that suck at their jobs. He doesn't get fired for one guy, but could get fired for several bad hirings. Especially if hiring people for those roles is considered a significant part of his position.

In a company where a manager is not involved in the hiring, then no, he would not get fired for hiring poor people, HR would be taken to task for that.

The point is, someone beyond the employee themselves is responsible for poor hiring decisions. Companies that don't hold people responsible for bad hiring practices eventually suffer the consequences.

But if your manager then hired another person who sucked, then they got fired, then hired yet another person who sucked - eventually the CEO of the company would realise that it isn't the employees who sucks, its the manager above them!

Exactly.

[Abou Sky]

Playing devils advocate a bit here - but how much cap space is there to work with for defenders? Is it a case that he doesn't know how to pick defenders, or a case that he doesn't know how to pick defenders that will play for 5 figures or low 6 figures?

Can't say the man doesn't have a point...

You can't be dumb and be a good defender, IMHO defenders are second smartest guys on the field after the keeper.

This means that likely the people who are defenders could have other careers and $35k a year isn't going to attract the best and brightest.

[TFCBarrie]

In a well run business, your manager will eventually get fired if his hiring practices reveal he hires people that suck at their jobs. He doesn't get fired for one guy, but could get fired for several bad hirings. Especially if hiring people for those roles is considered a significant part of his position.

In a company where a manager is not involved in the hiring, then no, he would not get fired for hiring poor people, HR would be taken to task for that.

The point is, someone beyond the employee themselves is responsible for poor hiring decisions. Companies that don't hold people responsible for bad hiring practices eventually suffer the consequences.



Exactly.

Fair enough. To all.

[mcolvy]

Looking at our squad, besides the two big DPs our team is no different. These guys are also old and only have a year or two left in the tank. Then what? Bringing in high prices management should have long term returns and I don't see that. The only "long term" returns is the academy and that has nothing to do with Winter and Mariner other then them both being avocets for youth development (which most people are...).

So, when Frings and Koevs retire.. as they won't play after the latest, end of next season. Then what?

What stamp has really been put on this team?

Other then Plata, Soolsma and Eckersley, there isn't anything different or special about this team within the MLS. Not a whole lot. I look at those three as the stamp. It is a decent one, I mean its a better core then some teams, but overall pretty bland.

Looking to a similar style SKC (Kansas City) who also play a 4-3-3 with attacking fullbacks, one could argue that they play it better then we do with more flow. They have the same 4-3-3 formation that almost takes a 4-5-1 look (4-2-3-1) when the attacking mid pushes up the field/ wingers drop back. Now maybe its the players, but from what I've seen they play it better then us. They look "pretty", but still win games. Why is Peter Vermes, a US nobody, doing a better job then Aron Winter, the pedigree and amazing?

So now what?

[Abou Sky]

Do you guys think that if we were 14 games in with 20-25 points and the last 4 being losses we would be as mad?

Teams have losing streaks, hopefully it ends today and we find our feet and can get 20+ pts in the next 10 games.

Basically what I am saying is:

Calm down!

[Ajax TFC]

who else has management brought in? how about turning that lazy ass Santos into Avila, or getting Ryan Johnson. Are those not worth mentioning?

[Thomas]

I don't follow you on few of your points. You say that bringing in high prices management should have long term returns, and you dont see that. Has the current management team been in place for a long time? Re the 2 newer DPs and that they might only have a few more years in the tank. Well, their contracts will be up in a couple of years, so that's good timing. Besides, it would probably be unrealistic to expect more than 3 years of good production with established veterans.

Looking at our squad, besides the two big DPs our team is no different. These guys are also old and only have a year or two left in the tank. Then what? Bringing in high prices management should have long term returns and I don't see that. The only "long term" returns is the academy and that has nothing to do with Winter and Mariner other then them both being avocets for youth development (which most people are...).

So, when Frings and Koevs retire.. as they won't play after the latest, end of next season. Then what?

What stamp has really been put on this team?

Other then Plata, Soolsma and Eckersley, there isn't anything different or special about this team within the MLS. Not a whole lot. I look at those three as the stamp. It is a decent one, I mean its a better core then some teams, but overall pretty bland.

Looking to a similar style SKC (Kansas City) who also play a 4-3-3 with attacking fullbacks, one could argue that they play it better then we do with more flow. They have the same 4-3-3 formation that almost takes a 4-5-1 look (4-2-3-1) when the attacking mid pushes up the field/ wingers drop back. Now maybe its the players, but from what I've seen they play it better then us. They look "pretty", but still win games. Why is Peter Vermes, a US nobody, doing a better job then Aron Winter, the pedigree and amazing?

So now what?

[sashavukelich]

can the mods please oh please bring this thread back to topic.

[ag futbol]

who else has management brought in? how about turning that lazy ass Santos into Avila, or getting Ryan Johnson. Are those not worth mentioning?

Santos is playing pretty well so far this year, if his stats are any indication... In fact, he's single handedly outscoring our entire roster in MLS play (ouch).

[Ajax TFC]

Santos played best with DeRo, so expect him to be decent this year. That said, last year he was a complete opportunity waster.
Here's last year's league leaders in total shots. Santos comes fifth with 92 shots. Of those, only 25 five were on target. Of those, eight went in. Knowing Santos' style, I'd say most of those shots probably came in situations where shooting was far from the best option. So if only 25 of his 92 shots were on target, that means 67 individual attacks turned into goal kicks through him alone.
At the end of the season he got released, but we got Avila out of it.

[JuliquE]

can the mods please oh please bring this thread back to topic.

Therein is the issue with these consolidation threads.

The fact is that, with the news of any player coming in, you will sometimes stray slightly off-topic, albeit still somewhat relative to what's happening. With individual player threads, if not for the league, then, at least, for OUR club, it doesn't hurt so much.. because, they are, mostly, shorter threads and the titles help with navigation.

Some may say that the same things are being said, but I think that this can be true about the whole damn forum.. making it pointless to single out discussions on something as integral to our club's success as player acquisitions and dealings surrounding the process. Eh.. what do I know?

[ag futbol]

Santos played best with DeRo, so expect him to be decent this year. That said, last year he was a complete opportunity waster.
Here's last year's league leaders in total shots. Santos comes fifth with 92 shots. Of those, only 25 five were on target. Of those, eight went in. Knowing Santos' style, I'd say most of those shots probably came in situations where shooting was far from the best option. So if only 25 of his 92 shots were on target, that means 67 individual attacks turned into goal kicks through him alone.
At the end of the season he got released, but we got Avila out of it.

I know people love to quote that stat, but I'm not a huge fan of it because if you never attempt it ... it won't go in. If we look at something like this in isolation: we'd be rewarding strikers who never get to these opportunities in the first place, either by a function of not being in position or by simply losing the ball. I don't think a shot on net (no matter how speculative), is a bad outcome all things considered.

I guess, what I'm trying to really get at is: it's really hard to accurately quantify someone's output through stats .. and if you are, the best metric is still goals scored (for strikers at least).

[moralis]

Seems like Paul Mariner was trying to sign a European centre back, but talks broke off last Thursday according to Gareth Wheeler of TSN Radio:

@TorontoFC Paul Mariner says on @TSN1050Radio #TFC was in for a European centre-back to bring to the club. Talks broke down Thursday. #MLS

http://twitter.com/#!/gareth_wheeler...57656944635905

Man, we can't can a break. So frustrated.

[DoubleUp]

Think this obsession with a cb is killing the team, we need a athletic box to box/denfensive midfielder more, also a more dynamic winger/striker to play up top with koevermans and johnson, defenders dont score goals.

Strikers do!. Now because of moaning from the fans this team is being built wrong and its costing us, soon everybody on the roster will be a defender.

[ArmenJBX]

LOL We have Torsten Frings, alongside Luis Silva and Eric Avila/Terry Dunfield/Nick Soolsma we should be fine in the midfield, SO LONG AS FRINGS IS PLAYING THERE!
Cann looked like a real leader at the back and Doneil Henry didn't play terribly either - Logan Emory would be the one player to benefit the most from Cann, as he just needs that's direction to be effective.

[DoubleUp]

LOL We have Torsten Frings, alongside Luis Silva and Eric Avila/Terry Dunfield/Nick Soolsma we should be fine in the midfield, SO LONG AS FRINGS IS PLAYING THERE!
Cann looked like a real leader at the back and Doneil Henry didn't play terribly either - Logan Emory would be the one player to benefit the most from Cann, as he just needs that's direction to be effective.

are you serious about our midfield being fine. I really can't tell.

[reggie]

Seems like Paul Mariner was trying to sign a European centre back, but talks broke off last Thursday according to Gareth Wheeler of TSN Radio:

@TorontoFC Paul Mariner says on @TSN1050Radio #TFC was in for a European centre-back to bring to the club. Talks broke down Thursday. #MLS

http://twitter.com/#!/gareth_wheeler...57656944635905

Man, we can't can a break. So frustrated.

sounds like mo all over again...we could of signed but...excuse after excuse..

[mcolvy]

Seems like Paul Mariner was trying to sign a European centre back, but talks broke off last Thursday according to Gareth Wheeler of TSN Radio:

@TorontoFC Paul Mariner says on @TSN1050Radio #TFC was in for a European centre-back to bring to the club. Talks broke down Thursday. #MLS

http://twitter.com/#!/gareth_wheeler...57656944635905

Man, we can't can a break. So frustrated.

Hmm. its weird for management to say these things out loud. Mariner isn't just dumb, there must be a reason why he was vocal about it. Maybe to get leverage in the negotiation or something. He wouldn't tease the fans like this unless there was reason too.

[mcolvy]

If we are looking into a dynamic forward. Arjen Robben is rumoured to want out of Munich

[DoubleUp]

If we are looking into a dynamic forward. Arjen Robben is rumoured to want out of Munich

we are 0-5 and your treating this like yukyuks