2.5 Million Canadians Watched Whitecaps vs. Impact

[KRO]

Does anyone have any data how many TFC games will be on TSN?

Are we still mostly on GOLTV?

18 TFC games on TSN this season, 3 of which are on TSN2.
10 games are on GOL and 6 games on Sportsnet or Sportsnet1.
Not too much Gerry and his "endlines" and "centre stripes".

[Offside goal]

I think a regular HNIC game has an average audience in the 2 mil range. Playoff hockey is obviously a bit different, but Game 7 for Boston-Vancouver this past June had an average audience of 8.76 million, with a total reach of 18.45 million.

Overall, great numbers for MLS - 500k for a game is fantastic.

[Whoop]

My bad. I was really off. LOL

[Offside goal]

My bad. I was really off. LOL

Not too far off - 1.2 to 1.5mil was the average range reported before the old set top rating system was replaced with fancy new pager-like devices (a couple of years ago now).

What that means for live sports is that people watching at bars etc. were not properly accounted under the old measuring system. Now that they are better represented = higher numbers overall = happier networks because of more ad revenue.

[Detroit_TFC]

Oldtimer - WC games pull those kind of numbers in US, some Mexican Primera Liga and nat team games pull close to those numbers on the Spanish-language channels. MLS media bigwigs are vexed by knowing the potential audience is out there but just isn't biting.

[Whoop]

For what it's worth.

20,692 = median attendance in MLS stadiums over first 10 dates of 2012; 20,000 = median attendance in Serie A over last 10 dates

[Canary10]

Did anyone watch the game on NBC by any chance? I find the camera angles and the overall camera work really bad in North American tv productions. It's like they don't know where the ball is going, so they have much wider camera angles than an EPL broadcast. If NBC can fix that it would improve viewership I think.

A better quality would help too. MLS is still just too painful to watch most of the time. It's great being at games, buy why watch on TV when you have access to European leagues where the play is actually fluid.

[CSO_BBTB]

What do you mean, favours the CFL? Certainly the fact it's been around for a hundred years helps the CFL but in the regions that league has to work like any other to sell tickets and drive TV ratings.

Soccer is still most popular amongst recent immigrants. The proportion of the population that was born overseas or has at least one parent who was born overseas is significantly higher in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver than it is in cities like Winnipeg and Regina.

[TFC/Everton]

Stellar Canadian ratings even more impressive compared to the sad US ratings of 82K for Dallas v NYRB on NBC Sports Network (Sunday afternoon not the best time for anything on tv). Even that sad amount was better than the ratings previously on Fox Soccer, so I guess even that is a positive.

The NFL does ok on Sunday afternoon.

[Detroit_TFC]

^ except for that, of course.

[RC8]

For what it's worth.

Interesting. It's worth noting the MLS covers a range of 330 million people, whereas Italy only has 60 million.

Impressive nonetheless!

[Auzzy]

Interesting. It's worth noting the MLS covers a range of 330 million people, whereas Italy only has 60 million.

Impressive nonetheless!

Except for in-stadium attendance (different from TV viewership), it's more the local population that counts, rather than the national population -- also consider the massive importance of soccer to Italian society.

On the other hand, Serie A has other unique problems, especially with the type of in-stadium crowd they get at least for some teams.

[Oldtimer]

Soccer is still most popular amongst recent immigrants. The proportion of the population that was born overseas or has at least one parent who was born overseas is significantly higher in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver than it is in cities like Winnipeg and Regina.

... and that's a change from generations past. In the old days, immigrants felt that they had to adopt North American sports like hockey, baseball, and gridiron. Now (probably due to the availability of foreign leagues on Canadian TV), they feel that they can still watch the beautiful game and still be 100% Canadian.

[mr k]

What do you mean, favours the CFL? Certainly the fact it's been around for a hundred years helps the CFL but in the regions that league has to work like any other to sell tickets and drive TV ratings.

Yes, if there were three more cities like Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal we would be better off with our own league.

The most highly rated CFL games involve Saskatchewan 75% of the time. When they were on the roll 2 years ago, regular season matches hit 1 million consistently. There are only 1 million people in all of SK. That's the difference with the soccer demographics.


The headline on this thread is a bit misleading as 2.5 million tuned in at any given time to watch but they weren't there for the whole match - this number is known as the reach. The number that is usually cited is the average 500k+ number.

[greatwhitenorf]

Solid numbers, should only get better in future. Just imagine how well MLS would do if TSN created the same panel discussions about soccer as they do for the NHL or the CFL.

It's interesting to see the game has continued to grow and prosper given the lack of secondary media coverage. By that, I mean, other than game reports, you rarely see the mainstream media give MLS much coverage across Canada. If we had the kind of blough job coverage given to the Blue Jays by Rogers, or the NHL by TSN(who operate the NHL Network for the league), the numbers would soar.

TSN knows it would likely spell the demise of the CFL if it were to take that approach, given that Toronto and Vancouver's MLS clubs have quickly established economic superiority over their CFL counterparts in those cities. Montreal Impact will maybe have a bit more work to do to topple the Als, but since the Als are operating either at a loss or with a very thin profit margin, something that can only worsen as the Impact begin taking away sponsorship money, suite sales or media coverage.

A MLS team in Ottawa would absolutely kill any hope for the CFL. But seeing the Skydome full for last week's game is a big signal to the sports marketplace that the game's here to stay and this great audience for Vcr-Mtl only reinforces that.

[LittleOzzy]

How did TFC do ratings wise in the second leg game against L.A.?

[Beach_Red]

TSN knows it would likely spell the demise of the CFL if it were to take that approach, given that Toronto and Vancouver's MLS clubs have quickly established economic superiority over their CFL counterparts in those cities. Montreal Impact will maybe have a bit more work to do to topple the Als, but since the Als are operating either at a loss or with a very thin profit margin, something that can only worsen as the Impact begin taking away sponsorship money, suite sales or media coverage.

This is actually kind of funny given that there were no Als only a few years ago.

There's plenty of room in Canada for both MLS teams and the CFL.

[CSO_BBTB]

... and that's a change from generations past. In the old days, immigrants felt that they had to adopt North American sports like hockey, baseball, and gridiron. Now (probably due to the availability of foreign leagues on Canadian TV), they feel that they can still watch the beautiful game and still be 100% Canadian.

More pressure to rigidly assimilate was definitely there socially in earlier decades but whether people actually always complied is another story. One of my cousins often played in front of crowds of 5,000 to 10,000 in Toronto in the NSL in the 1970s. When there were less foreign games on TV people watched the local stuff (i.e. the forerunners of the present day CSL) more than they do now. Things are definitely very different now though with the way TFC and MLS are being treated as part of the mainstream.

[117]

HNIC usually averages 1 million viewers if not more.

I don't know what the number is for those who tune into part or some of it during the course of a night. Maybe 4-5 million?

March 3rd on HNIC, Leafs Habs was 2.5 million average. Peak at 3.3 million. 7.4 million "tuned in".

That's on 1 English channel. I'm sure RDS had a bunch of viewers as well.

[Flipityflu]

those are fantastic numbers. if those kind of numbers continue, it can only mean good things for the future of Canadian football. its my hope that this will start a positive enviroment for the national side to develop.

[greatwhitenorf]

This is actually kind of funny given that there were no Als only a few years ago.

There's plenty of room in Canada for both MLS teams and the CFL.

Absolutely. As long as CFL locations in your Canada include Moncton, Quebec City, London and Shreveport 2.0.

Otherwise, the David Braley life support system can only go on so long. If the CFL can't prosper in Canada's major markets - and it isn't - despite the level of media boosterism it's getting now, it's long-term future becomes questionable having to play out of secondary markets.

[shwade]

Does anyone have the numbers for the 2 Toronto games yet?

[mr k]

Absolutely. As long as CFL locations in your Canada include Moncton, Quebec City, London and Shreveport 2.0.

Otherwise, the David Braley life support system can only go on so long. If the CFL can't prosper in Canada's major markets - and it isn't - despite the level of media boosterism it's getting now, it's long-term future becomes questionable having to play out of secondary markets.

CFL and North American football's biggest enemy over the next decade is concussions as parents pull kids away from the sport and insurance firms say no to back stopping youth & school leagues due to higher lawsuits.

As long as North American football is one of the top 3 sports, CFL will easily have the edge over other sports like the MLS. As mentioned already, MLS coverage beyond televising the match is skimpy. But the broad interest isn't really there to justify it. If you look at the number of comments after footy articles on sites like the globe & the Star, the numbers are pretty light - and that includes about 25% of the comments dissing the sport for the usual boorish reasons. And the tv ratings aren't consistently good like it is for hockey, football, baseball & curling.

Plus, the strength of the CFL like curling is in Western Canada - the part of the country where the population base is increasing and the economy is growing faster than the rest of Canada. The MLS isn't at the stage yet where they can get 1.5m wo watched the Brier final or 4-5m watching the Grey Cup. Even the WC final is now just getting close to Brier rating levels.

[Beach_Red]

Absolutely. As long as CFL locations in your Canada include Moncton, Quebec City, London and Shreveport 2.0.

Otherwise, the David Braley life support system can only go on so long. If the CFL can't prosper in Canada's major markets - and it isn't - despite the level of media boosterism it's getting now, it's long-term future becomes questionable having to play out of secondary markets.

This does sound similar to MLS - one big investor life support system and a failure to break through in the big markets like NY and LA.

Maybe in a few years we will be talking about a Canadian soccer league that won't have to compete in every market with the NFL, NBA, MLB and NCAA.

[Macksam]

Plus, the strength of the CFL like curling is in Western Canada - the part of the country where the population base is increasing and the economy is growing faster than the rest of Canada. The MLS isn't at the stage yet where they can get 1.5m wo watched the Brier final or 4-5m watching the Grey Cup. Even the WC final is now just getting close to Brier rating levels.

The plus for MLS is the demographics for places like Calgary and Edmonton are changing to reflect the big three more with the bolded happening. However, for MLS to fully benefit from that, these cities would need franchises of their own in about 10 to 12 years time. Who knows what the future holds.

[greatwhitenorf]

The big difference in MLS' favour lies in the calibre of ownership and its depth of pockets. Among the ten richest owners of soccer teams on the planet, MLS have two in Paul Allen in Seattle and Philip Anschutz in LA. Mix their capabilities in with how MLS have sensibly managed costs and used marketing tools like Soccer United Marketing to broaden revenue and the league is being fairly well managed and continuing to grow and develop.

Here in Canada, all three MLS clubs feature very sound and prosperous owners with deep pockets if needed. Happily, they'll all make money. The CFL can't make the same claim.

The Argos face some serious challenges to stay viable. Lose Toronto and the whole league takes a huge hit in terms of TV marketability. They don't have the deep pockets to support years of losses. Pro soccer in North America has come and again repeatedly, returning stronger each time. This time, it's here to stay and challenge the established sports. There will be blood.

[Macksam]

The Argos face some serious challenges to stay viable. Lose Toronto and the whole league takes a huge hit in terms of TV marketability. They don't have the deep pockets to support years of losses. Pro soccer in North America has come and again repeatedly, returning stronger each time. This time, it's here to stay and challenge the established sports. There will be blood.

Not to point you out greatwhitenorf as you haven't said this, but whenever I hear someone say the CFL will fold if the league loses Toronto, I ask the question why? The vast majority of the league's ratings come from somewhere else. It would be misguided on the part of TSN and the companies that sponsor the league to pack up everything and leave if the Argos fold.

[greatwhitenorf]

Fair question, Macksam. It's all about advertising. TV coverage runs on dollars from sponsors who want their products shown to the largest audience possible. Take the Argos out of the CFL mix and the CFL is no longer in Canada's largest market, which undermines their appeal to advertisers. And it's not comparable to the NFL not being in LA. That league is far more wealthy and stable, plus LA is soon to return to the fold with a new stadium project soon to begin.

It's not like one event or circumstance is going to topple the CFL, but it's like it's being nibbled to death by ducks. There isn't a huge margin for error or the ability to withstand heavy debt. One man's benevolence is holding a quarter of the league in place. One network - TSN - is pouring enormous energy and effort to support the league, which has a spin-off benefit of encouraging other media to maintain coverage. Now TSN is beginning to acknowledge soccer's growing importance, a sport they have given begrudging, or even mocking, coverage to in past years. That's not something the CFL can be happy about.

Losing the Argos would confirm the signal that the CFL is losing relevancy in the bigger marketplaces. The fact that the Whitecaps, in year one of their MLS existence, formed a larger commercial operation than the long-lived BC Lions speaks volumes. Montreal looks great playing out of that cute Percy Molson stadium, but they still aren't profitable. Now they've got a rival playing in much of the same season who commenced their upgraded professional status by playing an attractive home opener in front of 50,000 enthusiastic fans. That won't make marketing any easier for the Als.

One sport has a great history. The other has a great future.

[Mulder]

Solid numbers, should only get better in future. Just imagine how well MLS would do if TSN created the same panel discussions about soccer as they do for the NHL or the CFL.

It's interesting to see the game has continued to grow and prosper given the lack of secondary media coverage. By that, I mean, other than game reports, you rarely see the mainstream media give MLS much coverage across Canada. If we had the kind of blough job coverage given to the Blue Jays by Rogers, or the NHL by TSN(who operate the NHL Network for the league), the numbers would soar.

TSN knows it would likely spell the demise of the CFL if it were to take that approach, given that Toronto and Vancouver's MLS clubs have quickly established economic superiority over their CFL counterparts in those cities. Montreal Impact will maybe have a bit more work to do to topple the Als, but since the Als are operating either at a loss or with a very thin profit margin, something that can only worsen as the Impact begin taking away sponsorship money, suite sales or media coverage.

A MLS team in Ottawa would absolutely kill any hope for the CFL. But seeing the Skydome full for last week's game is a big signal to the sports marketplace that the game's here to stay and this great audience for Vcr-Mtl only reinforces that.

I'm not convinced the White caps have overtaken the B.C. Lions after just one season. Considering the season the lions had last year. There is just no proof of that in Vancouver. Again, tons of room for both, infact in talking with people I know from Vancouver there is hardly any CFL vs MLS talk, and lots of cross-over fans. The same can't be completely said for Toronto for reasons unknown.
The Lions were also in a familiar place where the Argos are now about 8-10 years ago, and now draw over 30,000+ for most games. We will wait to see what next season brings for the Lions attendance.

As for Montreal, they are making a decent profit since their stadium expansion from what I heard. Ottawa has already been awarded a NASL Franchise set to take the field the same year as the CFL team. There's no proof it would 'kill' the CFL in Ottawa. There is room for both in a city with a metro population of 1.2 million.

This is actually kind of funny given that there were no Als only a few years ago.

There's plenty of room in Canada for both MLS teams and the CFL.

Als moved to Montreal is 1996. Not really a few years ago any more, but have enjoyed success since. And I totally agree, there is lots of room in the Canada sports market for both leagues.

Absolutely. As long as CFL locations in your Canada include Moncton, Quebec City, London and Shreveport 2.0.

Otherwise, the David Braley life support system can only go on so long. If the CFL can't prosper in Canada's major markets - and it isn't - despite the level of media boosterism it's getting now, it's long-term future becomes questionable having to play out of secondary markets.

This is a common criticism of the CFL, 'only' 8 teams, Yet, Canada has a population of 33 million. I commonly ask this question to people who make that criticism. USA population is 10 times higher, so why doesn't the NFL have 80 teams?

The CFL is prospering in some major Canadian markets, Montreal and Vancouver. Toronto and Hamilton have not played exciting football with you hands in quite a while, and I think that is the major issue. Start playing exciting football and there will be an attendance and interest boost.

The big difference in MLS' favour lies in the calibre of ownership and its depth of pockets. Among the ten richest owners of soccer teams on the planet, MLS have two in Paul Allen in Seattle and Philip Anschutz in LA. Mix their capabilities in with how MLS have sensibly managed costs and used marketing tools like Soccer United Marketing to broaden revenue and the league is being fairly well managed and continuing to grow and develop.

Here in Canada, all three MLS clubs feature very sound and prosperous owners with deep pockets if needed. Happily, they'll all make money. The CFL can't make the same claim.

The Argos face some serious challenges to stay viable. Lose Toronto and the whole league takes a huge hit in terms of TV marketability. They don't have the deep pockets to support years of losses. Pro soccer in North America has come and again repeatedly, returning stronger each time. This time, it's here to stay and challenge the established sports. There will be blood.

There is a huge different in having owners of a team that plays in a sport that is played globally, then owning a team of a sport that is played in 2 counties. (arguable 3). The CFL has never been this stable ownership wise in it's history, with the exception of Toronto right now. As I mentioned in an earlier post there is plenty of room for both sports in the market. And I don't understand the one league vs the other thought process.

Fair question, Macksam. It's all about advertising. TV coverage runs on dollars from sponsors who want their products shown to the largest audience possible. Take the Argos out of the CFL mix and the CFL is no longer in Canada's largest market, which undermines their appeal to advertisers. And it's not comparable to the NFL not being in LA. That league is far more wealthy and stable, plus LA is soon to return to the fold with a new stadium project soon to begin.

It's not like one event or circumstance is going to topple the CFL, but it's like it's being nibbled to death by ducks. There isn't a huge margin for error or the ability to withstand heavy debt. One man's benevolence is holding a quarter of the league in place. One network - TSN - is pouring enormous energy and effort to support the league, which has a spin-off benefit of encouraging other media to maintain coverage. Now TSN is beginning to acknowledge soccer's growing importance, a sport they have given begrudging, or even mocking, coverage to in past years. That's not something the CFL can be happy about.

Losing the Argos would confirm the signal that the CFL is losing relevancy in the bigger marketplaces. The fact that the Whitecaps, in year one of their MLS existence, formed a larger commercial operation than the long-lived BC Lions speaks volumes. Montreal looks great playing out of that cute Percy Molson stadium, but they still aren't profitable. Now they've got a rival playing in much of the same season who commenced their upgraded professional status by playing an attractive home opener in front of 50,000 enthusiastic fans. That won't make marketing any easier for the Als.

One sport has a great history. The other has a great future.

There is no even hint that the Argo are going anywhere. Or the CFL. The CFL has never been stronger than it is now, but you are making it seem it's being "nibbled" to death. CFL has withstood much tougher times than what's ahead, the 2010 season 6 of the 8 teams made money, but your talking about withstanding heavy debt. There is also signs for a huge bidding war for the TV rights come next season. I honestly don't think there is serious 'fear' or "unhappiness" about the MLS in the CFL board rooms. Business can't operate on fear.

As posted above as well, There was no real evidence the Whitecaps overtook the lions in one season, you also can't compare a team that has been around for 50 years compared to a team that has been around for 1. It's not a fair comparison, you have to wait 5-8 years before you can properly see the marketplace response. One game or one season doesn't mean the team is looking at great success in the future.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Again, tons of room for both, in fact in talking with people I know from Vancouver there is hardly any CFL vs MLS talk, and lots of cross-over fans. The same can't be completely said for Toronto for reasons unknown.

Really, Mulder? You've been participating in these CFL comparison discussions for YEARS now.

This is a common criticism of the CFL, 'only' 8 teams, Yet, Canada has a population of 33 million. I commonly ask this question to people who make that criticism. USA population is 10 times higher, so why doesn't the NFL have 80 teams?

Inferiority complex. We need to watch Gridiron bigger and better than the States version before it is accepted here. I don't agree and it made me fall out with the game. I would rather see a 20-40 team league of the CFL with Naturalized Canadians only. That will take us away from the ridiculous comparisons of the 60's and 70's when we could compete for American talent and put us back to a place where we follow the local team and the league would feel bigger, like our country, and I think we could market the diversity in skill level we would obviously have with so many teams.

And I don't understand the one league vs the other thought process.

North America = Choice in Sport like no other place on Earth. Comparisons will always happen. The bigger the place, the more options, the more comparisons.

As posted above as well, There was no real evidence the Whitecaps overtook the lions in one season, you also can't compare a team that has been around for 50 years compared to a team that has been around for 1. It's not a fair comparison, you have to wait 5-8 years before you can properly see the marketplace response. One game or one season doesn't mean the team is looking at great success in the future.

We can compare and we will. I don't know if Vancouver overtook BC or not but if it did I agree that it has to be regarded as one annual result. Inaugural, at that.