Return of Pablo Vitti. yes or no?

[T-boy]

Well, I guess that ends all debate then.

The real bottom line is this: If Winter and Mariner feel Vitti would work in their system, they bring him back. Simple as that. I have confidence in their ability to evaluate it and would support them.

I just wouldn't be impressed at all in the new management bringing in a player that didn't have the attributes to do well in the MLS before. It would be like Man Utd bringing Diego Forlan back - he MAY have done well since leaving United, and united MAY have a different team now that he can play with, but bringing a player who wasn't that popular before, and wasn't succesful before, is never a great idea!

Plus, we are talking about 200k PLUS wages for the guy! That's a lot of money to bring a player who wasn't successful in the team before!

For me, there are much better option that area already in the MLS, who we could definitely trade. There's no need for Winter to gamble on a player who wasn't a success here before! I'm pretty sure Winter knows this!

If Vitti did come back, he would have to do a hell of a lot to change my opinion of him since the last time he was here!

[Keegan]

If there was no salary cap of course we'd all say "what the hell, sign him!"

But there is, so you can't think like this is your european club team. Vitti isn't fit for this league, he was one of the worst offensive players on a team that couldn't score without De Rosario. Next... we're better off putting Avila in that AMC spot

[TFCRegina]

If there was no salary cap of course we'd all say "what the hell, sign him!"

But there is, so you can't think like this is your european club team. Vitti isn't fit for this league, he was one of the worst offensive players on a team that couldn't score without De Rosario. Next... we're better off putting Avila in that AMC spot

Agree Keegan.

Twice Vitti has ended up in physical leagues and failed to perform. He went to the Ukraine and played poorly there, he came to MLS and performed poorly here. Lots of people liked his movement on and off the ball, yet it rarely produced anything.

I have serious doubts that third time's the charm for Pablo. He's suited to more technical leagues than this and he's suited to leagues where the play is less rough.

Unlike Plata, he has been unable to adjust to the physicality and I would say no on that alone.

[ensco]

of course, i was discussing with ensco on his proposition that IF Vitti THEN Winter/Mariner incompetent. I don't support that, I say the most conservative or skeptical view ought to be 'inconclusive until Vitti signed and after he played one season'

Listen, anything is possible. I can't prove a negative proposition, that is correct. But I stand by my statement. It wouldn't be a good sign about our talent identification process, for me, if Vitti is presented as an important component for next year.

The record of WinterMariner on trades is mixed for me (I will declare it a positive if Avila is signed at a decent number). The record on DPs is excellent. But those bullets are gone now.

What we're waiting to see is a big move on non-DP signings. That's what WinterMariner have that others don't. Relationships in world football. These signings are how they're going to move the needle (or not). If you don't really rate Soolsma, which I don't, they have done nothing in this regard yet (same for Ecks and Plata, they don't count until we have them under contract)

If the salary is low enough, OK. But count me seriously underimpressed if an underachieving washout is presented as part of the answer to the question "we scoured the world and this is what we found"

[Kaz]

If there was no salary cap of course we'd all say "what the hell, sign him!"

But there is, so you can't think like this is your european club team. Vitti isn't fit for this league, he was one of the worst offensive players on a team that couldn't score without De Rosario. Next... we're better off putting Avila in that AMC spot

Why? did we see Vitti play a proper AMC? Did we see him play with players that new how to play with his skill set? did we see him play with Wingers that could preform?

This is a situation that I liked him, I wanted him to do well, we almost all remember his name, and if the coaching staff say hey come to training came lets see what you can do with this system, and then say ok you'll work. Then ya if the price is right then lets sign him.

Really he played with Long Ball players, with Dero and Guevara in the center. There is a reason that the 4 highest assists come from Center Mids and Defenders, from his season with us.

In this case I'd like to see him given a chance, if Winter wants to give him one. I think Plata would have underperformed with the 2009 play style and management too

[pekduck]

Listen, anything is possible. I can't prove a negative proposition, that is correct. But I stand by my statement. It wouldn't be a good sign about our talent identification process, for me, if Vitti is presented as an important component for next year.

The record of WinterMariner on trades is mixed for me (I will declare it a positive if Avila is signed at a decent number). The record on DPs is excellent. But those bullets are gone now.

What we're waiting to see is a big move on non-DP signings. That's what WinterMariner have that others don't. Relationships in world football. These signings are how they're going to move the needle (or not). If you don't really rate Soolsma, which I don't, they have done nothing in this regard yet (same for Ecks and Plata, they don't count until we have them under contract)

If the salary is low enough, OK. But count me seriously underimpressed if an underachieving washout is presented as part of the answer to the question "we scoured the world and this is what we found"

haha, i don't disagree with your elaboration at all, just taken aback at the implied bias (or at least perceived by me) from the original post, that's all

to be honest, i don't mind if they get Vitti if with all due processes and evaluation, he's the best of the available pool, but i wouldn't be ecstatic either

to be optimistic, i surely hope they get some real impact signings during off season

to be realistic, after 5 years of mojo, i'll turn a blind eye and have no expectation or energy to speculate until a signing took place

5pm... 4 more hours to go at work...

[Shakes McQueen]

Listen, anything is possible. I can't prove a negative proposition, that is correct. But I stand by my statement. It wouldn't be a good sign about our talent identification process, for me, if Vitti is presented as an important component for next year.

The record of WinterMariner on trades is mixed for me (I will declare it a positive if Avila is signed at a decent number). The record on DPs is excellent. But those bullets are gone now.

What we're waiting to see is a big move on non-DP signings. That's what WinterMariner have that others don't. Relationships in world football. These signings are how they're going to move the needle (or not). If you don't really rate Soolsma, which I don't, they have done nothing in this regard yet (same for Ecks and Plata, they don't count until we have them under contract)

If the salary is low enough, OK. But count me seriously underimpressed if an underachieving washout is presented as part of the answer to the question "we scoured the world and this is what we found"

Good post. I agree.

I'm not opposed to seeing how Vitti would perform under the new philosophy at the club, and with new teammates, but if all we can manage to "scout" is bringing back old guys who didn't set the world on fire their first time here, I'm unimpressed.

Plus, as Roogsy and others have mentioned - our pressing needs lie elsewhere right now. So yeah, at the right number I'd be okay with giving him a shot, but that's about the extent of my unbridled enthusiasm.

- Scott

[Canary10]

I agree with Ensco. Winter's made some good splashes so far, but it's going to be those lower-profile players that fill needs that will decide if he's got a real talent for evaluation (and ultimately if we can make a real run in this league).

Couple of things I want to add: One, I've heard that Bouchiba is actually real quality. I've never seen him play, but does anyone really know?

Two, why has Sportsnet's John Molinaro not investigated this Vitti rumour with the club?!!!

[Shakes McQueen]

One thing worth mentioning - and I think Winter mentioned it at the town hall (?) - was when he spoke about seeing players he thought would be useful to him, only to facepalm when someone told him the player used to be a TFC player. Perhaps Vitti was one of the players he had in mind when he said this.

- Scott

[Canary10]

One thing worth mentioning - and I think Winter mentioned it at the town hall (?) - was when he spoke about seeing players he thought would be useful to him, only to facepalm when someone told him the player used to be a TFC player. Perhaps Vitti was one of the players he had in mind when he said this.

- Scott

yeah he said it at mine. He was definitely referring to MLS players. Actually, I recorded the whole town hall on my blackberry's digital recorder. Wonder if I could post that somehow?

[Ajax TFC]

I've heard that Bouchiba is actually real quality. I've never seen him play, but does anyone really know?

Winter does. He played with him (as well as Koevermans) back in 02,

[Keegan]

If Vitti will take a 80k deal, sure bring him in. But anyone who watched him with us knows he isn't good enough/fit for the league and don't give me the "it was the system" or "it was the players", he created NOTHING individually all season, he had more than enough chances to impress. Guevara and De Rosario and even BARRETT didn't seem to need to blame the system or players. If he wants to earn 250k he needs to be a 250k player and he isn't. I don't think people realize how good you need to be in this league to be worth that... using examples people will know, Will Johnson for instance earns 225k, Andre Hainault 150k, Jakovic 200k. Hainault had the same amount of playoff goals as Vitti did regular season.. as a right back.

[ensco]

One thing worth mentioning - and I think Winter mentioned it at the town hall (?) - was when he spoke about seeing players he thought would be useful to him, only to facepalm when someone told him the player used to be a TFC player. Perhaps Vitti was one of the players he had in mind when he said this.

- Scott

I think the player was Cronin. I wasn't there, but I read it here. It really struck me. How depressing.

[pekduck]

I think the player was Cronin. I wasn't there, but I read it here. It really struck me. How depressing.

I'd think Cronin is the case too. Facepalm moment for sure.

[Auzzy]

I'd think Cronin is the case too. Facepalm moment for sure.

Cronin was one example. From my town hall, I definitely got the feeling there were other former players about which they had similar thoughts.

[jloome]

There's no need for Winter to gamble on a player who wasn't a success here before!

Again, people keep making a point and you're just not responding to it. There's nothing healthy about intransigence in a debate.

It's a different system, one designed to rein in individualism and to allow skill players to flourish wide and in the hole. As people have noted, former TFC failures have flourished in other systems.

Why wouldn't Vitti fit this system better?

[prizby]

Exceptions. Most guys dont adapt that fast

Ryan Johnson and Eric Avila did pretty good too

[jloome]

I vote yes. Here's why

-- Prior to arriving at TFC, Pablo Vitti was at one time one of the top youth prospects on the planet. He was starting on the U21 team ahead of Messi, and was starting at Rosario in the Argentine premier division at 19.

He went to the 2005 u-20 worlds, and flamed out, losing his starting spot to Messi. Press back in Argentina nicknamed him "El Muerte," the dead, and it stuck.

From then on, he had the touch of death. He moved to independiente and had (I think) eight goals playing in the hole, but his confidence was notably shot, and he was loaned out twice, frist to a team in the Ukraine, where within a few games he basically said the living conditions there were brutal and was benched, and then TFC, where he scored on his first chance for the team, only to have it called back by a crappy MLS ref, despite clearly positive replays.

So the curse continued. You could see it in the way he played after that. Even though he was sometimes playing directly up top in a 442, he didn't want to go anywhere near the box. On the few occasions he did, he dished the ball 9 times out of 10. The few times he did take shots were usually from distance, when there seemed to be few other options. I once saw him dribble around SEVEN defenders, be within two feet of the goal line ... and try to dish the ball. Serious FEAR of failure.

In other words, he was a world-class argentine youth player who's ego was too large to handle the bruising it took from the whole "El Muerte" fiasco.

Whether he's learned to toughen the hell up or not is the debatable question. I believe it may be irrelevant, however: if he's smart enough to work with the system, he has even better ball skills than Plata. Playing either as a wide forward or in the hole, instead of as a striker, he would be very, very effective, because there's no pressure on him to be a primary goalscorer.

Conversely, on his first round at TFC, Mo actually went public in Ives Galarcep's column before he even got here and proclaimed him the answer to our offensive woes. But he wouldn't shoot, and the best hole player in teh league couldn't get the other also rans we had to score. Just ask DeRo.

I think it would be a very astute signing. I don't think his downside is considerable, as long as they keep his salary in the mid to low 200s. The upside is potentially huge.

[ManUtd4ever]

Listen, anything is possible. I can't prove a negative proposition, that is correct. But I stand by my statement. It wouldn't be a good sign about our talent identification process, for me, if Vitti is presented as an important component for next year.

The record of WinterMariner on trades is mixed for me (I will declare it a positive if Avila is signed at a decent number). The record on DPs is excellent. But those bullets are gone now.

What we're waiting to see is a big move on non-DP signings. That's what WinterMariner have that others don't. Relationships in world football. These signings are how they're going to move the needle (or not). If you don't really rate Soolsma, which I don't, they have done nothing in this regard yet (same for Ecks and Plata, they don't count until we have them under contract)

If the salary is low enough, OK. But count me seriously underimpressed if an underachieving washout is presented as part of the answer to the question "we scoured the world and this is what we found"

I can understand your point of view. Keep in mind though, Vitti would hypothetically represent just one of several player acquisitions that will be made this off season. Therefore, the true barometer by which we can judge Winter and Mariner's abilities to identify non DP talent outside of MLS will be based on the collective performance of all the players signed this off season.

Perhaps the initial recommendation to look at Vitti was made internally by Cochrane, Dichio, or Brennan, based on the feeling that Vitti would integrate much more effectively with the current roster and tactical system.

If management signs Vitti, I don't think that would be an indictment of their scouting ability, it would just mean that they were sufficiently impressed with a player that was recommended internally by colleagues that were familiar with his abilities.

[ManUtd4ever]

I vote yes. Here's why

-- Prior to arriving at TFC, Pablo Vitti was at one time one of the top youth prospects on the planet. He was starting on the U21 team ahead of Messi, and was starting at Rosario in the Argentine premier division at 19.

He went to the 2005 u-20 worlds, and flamed out, losing his starting spot to Messi. Press back in Argentina nicknamed him "El Muerte," the dead, and it stuck.

From then on, he had the touch of death. He moved to independiente and had (I think) eight goals playing in the hole, but his confidence was notably shot, and he was loaned out twice, frist to a team in the Ukraine, where within a few games he basically said the living conditions there were brutal and was benched, and then TFC, where he scored on his first chance for the team, only to have it called back by a crappy MLS ref, despite clearly positive replays.

So the curse continued. You could see it in the way he played after that. Even though he was sometimes playing directly up top in a 442, he didn't want to go anywhere near the box. On the few occasions he did, he dished the ball 9 times out of 10. The few times he did take shots were usually from distance, when there seemed to be few other options. I once saw him dribble around SEVEN defenders, be within two feet of the goal line ... and try to dish the ball. Serious FEAR of failure.

In other words, he was a world-class argentine youth player who's ego was too large to handle the bruising it took from the whole "El Muerte" fiasco.

Whether he's learned to toughen the hell up or not is the debatable question. I believe it may be irrelevant, however: if he's smart enough to work with the system, he has even better ball skills than Plata. Playing either as a wide forward or in the hole, instead of as a striker, he would be very, very effective, because there's no pressure on him to be a primary goalscorer.

Conversely, on his first round at TFC, Mo actually went public in Ives Galarcep's column before he even got here and proclaimed him the answer to our offensive woes. But he wouldn't shoot, and the best hole player in teh league couldn't get the other also rans we had to score. Just ask DeRo.

I think it would be a very astute signing. I don't think his downside is considerable, as long as they keep his salary in the mid to low 200s. The upside is potentially huge.

Great post.

[prizby]

I vote yes. Here's why

-- Prior to arriving at TFC, Pablo Vitti was at one time one of the top youth prospects on the planet. He was starting on the U21 team ahead of Messi, and was starting at Rosario in the Argentine premier division at 19.

He went to the 2005 u-20 worlds, and flamed out, losing his starting spot to Messi. Press back in Argentina nicknamed him "El Muerte," the dead, and it stuck.

From then on, he had the touch of death. He moved to independiente and had (I think) eight goals playing in the hole, but his confidence was notably shot, and he was loaned out twice, frist to a team in the Ukraine, where within a few games he basically said the living conditions there were brutal and was benched, and then TFC, where he scored on his first chance for the team, only to have it called back by a crappy MLS ref, despite clearly positive replays.

So the curse continued. You could see it in the way he played after that. Even though he was sometimes playing directly up top in a 442, he didn't want to go anywhere near the box. On the few occasions he did, he dished the ball 9 times out of 10. The few times he did take shots were usually from distance, when there seemed to be few other options. I once saw him dribble around SEVEN defenders, be within two feet of the goal line ... and try to dish the ball. Serious FEAR of failure.

In other words, he was a world-class argentine youth player who's ego was too large to handle the bruising it took from the whole "El Muerte" fiasco.

Whether he's learned to toughen the hell up or not is the debatable question. I believe it may be irrelevant, however: if he's smart enough to work with the system, he has even better ball skills than Plata. Playing either as a wide forward or in the hole, instead of as a striker, he would be very, very effective, because there's no pressure on him to be a primary goalscorer.

Conversely, on his first round at TFC, Mo actually went public in Ives Galarcep's column before he even got here and proclaimed him the answer to our offensive woes. But he wouldn't shoot, and the best hole player in teh league couldn't get the other also rans we had to score. Just ask DeRo.

I think it would be a very astute signing. I don't think his downside is considerable, as long as they keep his salary in the mid to low 200s. The upside is potentially huge.

i think mista was scoring goals in 2004/2005...

[Fort York Redcoat]

It wouldn't be a good sign about our talent identification process, for me, if Vitti is presented as an important component for next year.

If the salary is low enough, OK. But count me seriously underimpressed if an underachieving washout is presented as part of the answer to the question "we scoured the world and this is what we found"

I'd agree that Vitti and Winter would be taking on far more pressure to succeed and achieve more than last time for less compensation. I'd prefer going with an unknown potential vs one that we've seen before but there you have it.

[jazzy]

It's all up to the main man Mr. Winter! If he thought it would be beneficial then no problem.

[jloome]

i think mista was scoring goals in 2004/2005...

That doesn't address anything in the post. The post had nothing to do with Pablo Vitti being a scorer and talks quite clearly about the issue of offensive production.

When someone takes the time to post thoughtfully, it would be appreciated if you read it before commenting.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

i dont know that id ever expect Vitti to be a huge component of being successful next year but i think he'll contribute positively (or can contribute positively)

[ensco]

Vitti would hypothetically represent just one of several player acquisitions that will be made this off season. Therefore, the true barometer by which we can judge Winter and Mariner's abilities to identify non DP talent outside of MLS will be based on the collective performance of all the players signed this off season.

This is of course true. As another for instance, for all we know, one of Ecks or Plata could suck next year, it happens.

They have to make 5-6 meaningful signings. I hope 2 of them are Ecks and Plata. They probably have about a million dollars to spend. The correct way to judge them in the market, is on how they spend the million. Not on how any one player does.

[brad]

Maybe they aren't looking at Vitti as a "failed" ex TFC player, maybe they are looking at it as signing one of the best players in what sounds to be a good quality South American league.

Also jloome raises a good point about Vitti be down on confidence when he was with us the first time. This time around he'd be coming from a much better place.

I'm all for bringing back. The first time around I thought he had the potential to be a very good player in the right system.

[ensco]

^ I talked to Vitti (and Marco Velez) at the airport once. i know a few words of spanish (buenos dias, dos cervezas por favor...the basics). Velez was kind of the translator on the road, it was clear. Vitti spoke zero english. Vitti was friendly I thought, but really anxious. He just seemed very far out of his comfort zone. I remember the Dero posse sitting a few yards away (Ricketts, Johann Smith, Nana) and all those guys were so relaxed. The contrast was huge.

[JuliquE]

Haven't voted, either.. but I would certainly support this move, should management deem it sound.

People have been turning a nose up to signing former players who didn't perform well, here. From what I've been hearing, there are a great many players around the league that Winter has eyed at one point or another.. only to be told that they previously played for TFC.

Someone has already pointed out the correlation between players doing poorly with us and either doing well afterwards or having come in with a respectable track record. Based on this alone, I think one mustn't weigh too much on the fact that any player wasn't a great fit under any previous TFC regimes. In fact, someone returning to do well would go a long way to substantiate the mantra of developing our system of play (4-3-3) and may even slightly improve our reputation amongst players.. from both the desire in a player wanting to return (indicating it can't be all bad), as well as the evidence that we're run differently (players flourishing, rather than floundering, when they get here).

[Detroit_TFC]

^ good points.