Originally Posted by Roogsy
Dude, honestly, most people on this forum understand very well Dero's worth as a player.
Most people also understand that he is one of the greatest MLS players ever.
Your self victimization lies in the fact that most people are unwilling to give you any credence which has nothing to do with Dero.
My working theory is that Roogs feels much like the rest of us on Dero, but for whatever reason can't come to grips with it. The arguments he makes aren't to try and convince anyone who disagrees with him to agree (his posts are always attacking other posters/incredibly defensive in tone, never understanding or acknowledging other peoples points or opinions, and constantly shifting the argument around, Not exactly what you do to change peoples opinions)
I assume Roogs isn't SO worried about defending Dero's honour that he'd have written literally hundreds of thousands of words on the topic, or repeated the same arguments ad nausium in dozens of different threads.
So if he isn't trying to convince us and he isn't just looking out for Dero's good name, then what the hells he doing? He has to be trying to convince himself somehow, anyhow, that he wasn't wrong about Dero and Deros worth to TFC. He just can't accept that most people here feel that Dero may be a great player but being a great player isn't the be all and end all of being a great pro athlete. Or understand that when someone says Dero isn't worth a DP's salary they aren't saying that he's a terrible player and a bum. That when people say TFC has been better post dero it's not about goal scoring per game, or our AM's strike rate or goals for/against but about the cohesiveness shown by the players on the field and the precense of strong leadership giving this club some character and direction. Even a bit of flair. That the long fractured TFC locker room, full of discontent, complaints, leaks etc hasn't had a single peep of bad press since Dero left town. That random players complaining subtly to writers about playing time, systems, salaries, rosters moves etc stopped about the same time. That Winter is the first coach TFC has had in 4 years who hasn't dealt with a faction of the clubhouse rising up against him very publicly.
If Dero is MVP, great, good for him. I can assure everyone had TFC not traded him he would not be MVP here, and anything beyond congradulating a local guy made good is basically just trolling. There was no possible outcome of the whole fiasco where Dero stayed in Toronto. From both sides POVs, Dero was done here. I've been trying to avoid responding to Roogsy's borderline taunting posts, and I've deleted a few responses like this one because I mean really, whats the point. But it's freaking annoying to have your opinions and comments mischaracterized so often. Especially by someone who goes appoplectic if someone even slightly misinterprets claims he made.
Great, we're all psycho-analysts now. LOL!
None of this stuff sounds familiar though. I think you guys are complicating things too much. My problems with this team are much simpler and DeRo was simply the biggest symptom. By failing to acknowledge such a glaring symptom, I just feel fans are ignoring the underlying illness with this team.
I was trying to convince myself about DeRo? LOL. Hardly. In fact I think your psychoanalysis applies on the opposite side where people work incredibly hard to convince themselves that TFC is a better team without a golden boot winner/MVP candidate. Not for a moment did I ever doubt my position.
And Alonso, I think the statement that people here understand his "worth as a player" is simply lip service. Because if our goal is to build a winning team then that requires winning players. And as fans we did not support our own winning player, instead siding with an inept front office. Its that sycophantic behaviour towards the TFC FO that burns me because they don't deserve it and it only emboldens them to continue messing things up with this team. And we're the ones that wind up paying for it.
On most teams, trading away an All Star for a bag of balls would be cause for heads to roll. Not here, its applauded. And to me that says something.
That was, and continues to be my problem with TFC and it has not changed despite what you may say about "shifting arguments". My argumentation has never changed and my points may have been repeated but its only because despite repeatedly saying them, people continue making false claims to the contrary.
As for no bad press or complaints from players after DeRo left, boy is that revisionist history.
Last edited by Roogsy; 11-09-2011 at 10:03 PM.
Roogsy, there's one point I think you're wrong on. The reality is, DeRo's a dick. HE himself turned half the fans against him all on his own. It's not that people side with the front office, it's that they had enough of him. And he authored that himself.
You're entitled to your opinion about the man. And that is his problem. Personally I don't agree, especially since he's never showed anything but respect for the fans. His beef was with management. But given all that if you think he's a dick so be it.
I care about the Ws. And looking at the standings this year its hard to imagine how fans could be more concerned about his personality than his ability but then again I said months ago that this was the real reason for some fans supporting the FO and you've proven that right. When fans concern themselves with contract disputes and not with the product on the pitch things have gone wrong.
But it does explain why some fans are ok with these results.
Last edited by Roogsy; 11-09-2011 at 10:16 PM.
Both sides are right. Dero was and is terrific with the fans and the community. He was also clueless in his dealings with the team/league, and a shameless, self-centered whinger about this, when these dealings went against his interest.
All in all, it's par for the course for the 21st century athlete. I'd welcome him back anytime. He's a gamer.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
Yeah, but TFC was not a very good team this year. If you want to suggest he is MVP for DC, then I wouldn't have a problem either. But for league MVP, I think it has to be a consideration. He is a great player, no doubt - certainly one of the best in the league...
I agree, even about the the whinging.
And yes that is what athletes are nowadays. This romanticized idea about what the ideal athlete is nowadays is a fairy tale. Take our own DPs as an example, would that have come here for anything less than a 7 figure salary? But we don't begrudge them their good living. Nor should we.
Lol, psychoanalysis is what we do around here! I'll ignore the other stuff, but outside of the pre-existing Cann/Attakora issues, what other locker room stuff popped up during this year? If I missed or forgot about something I'm all ears, I just for the life of me don't remember hearing anything beyond those 3 players.
And if you don't doubt your position, why do you continue to push it at every opportunity? There isn't a single poster or lurker reading this who doesn't know where you stand on Dero, what's the point in having the same argument so many times? Like what is all the time and energy trying to accomplish? What could possibly be worth constantly digging at this old wound and rehashing such a polarizing issue? Like I said, you have to realize you aren't convincing anyone, and you definitely have to realize that there's no new information or arguments coming now that weren't hashed out over the pages and pages and pages of other threads.*
Lastly, and I'm aware this is rehashing an argument I made ad nausium in feb and march- remember that the main reason TFC has NO leverage to trade Dero was that Dero himself sabataged any leverage the club would have by publicly stating that he was done with TFC. The fact that TFC was able to get anything for a player when the entire league knew they had a gun to their heads and would HAVE to take ANY offer isn't something to sneeze at. Did they get his total value back? No. Did they get more value back then their position at the time warranted? Hell ya. Did New York do a lot better despite not having the same lack of leverage TFC had? Not at all.
*I don't mean this to sound insulting or attacking, I'm just really curious at this point how the fire is still burning so hot, 8 months later.
He has a lot of baggage that some think we're better off not to have on the team regardless of how good he is. Even in my own family half hate his guts, half love him. He tends to produce both reactions, for better or worse.
Then he should be an RPB!
"Hated, adored, never ignored!"
And Waggy, that is the version of the DeRo trade the team would like you to believe.
Dude, honestly, most people on this forum understand very well Dero's worth as a player.
Most people also understand that he is one of the greatest MLS players ever.
Your self victimization lies in the fact that most people are unwilling to give you any credence which has nothing to do with Dero.
Is there an echo in here? LOL! You just repeated what you wrote earlier. Stop taking a page out of Roogsy's book of "how to post on a soccer discussion board".
Haha. LOL!
“Probably a week before our first game, maybe a week and a couple days before, is actually when I got my first actual offer on paper and after going back and forth, especially my agent with the club, it was an offer that more suited Toronto definitely than myself,” De Rosario said.
“Every option that I brought forth was turned down so I said, ‘Enough’s enough.’ I didn’t want to be a negative influence and I didn’t want to be a bad guy in the locker room. I played with 100% but I just couldn’t carry that weight on my shoulders and in my mind, mentally, I just needed to get some clarity. It had to come down to one of us making a decision.”
“I couldn’t play unhappy and I couldn’t play under a situation where I felt … I wasn’t being treated rightly,” De Rosario said during a conference call with reporters on Tuesday. “I had to make a tough choice and move forward, but I’m happy to be here in New York.
“My move to come here wasn’t an easy decision, obviously being in my hometown and the great support we have in Toronto, but it was a [situation] that had to be resolved and it was going on over a course of some period of time and for me I needed to get peace of mind.”
“I want to focus on my football and my football only, but at the same time my future … to play in my option year if anything happens to me in terms of injury or anything like that, [then] nothing is guaranteed,” De Rosario said.
When pressed by reporters about whether he will play without a new contract, he offered: “No, there’s too much risk in that.”
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/stor...derosario.html
(De Rosario says contract offer was last straw)
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/...eated-rightly/
(De Rosario: I wasn't being treated rightly)
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/...t-talks-stall/
(De Rosario may sit out if contract talks stall)
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/...oycott-threat/
(De Rosario backs off boycott threat)
Now where would I have gotten the idea that he wasn't going to be playing for TFC one way or the other? Those tricky MLSE bastards sure are good at putting words in his mouth. Or they were able to buy all the soccer press and have CBC and the Post and the star act as their mouthpieces, despite the fact those same outlets RAKE them on the Leafs and Raptors, often going too far to the contrarian side. Look like I said already, it's he said she said. Arguing about hearsay is a waste of time in the best of cases, arguing about hearsay for 8 months is ridiculous and borderline obsessive. That chapter of TFC's history is just that, history. I've been avoiding posting in these Dero things as much as I can (it's tough restraining sometimes), but enough is enough. We finally have something to look forward to with this team and we're still stuck looking backwards. My congrats to Dero for being in the final 3, all the best to him in trying to get an MLS mvp and a DP contract. Hopefully this thread next year is about Frings and or Koevs.
Actually you've moved the goalposts with this post. But it's late and I am watching Sofia Vergara on Modern Familyso I will leave posting another novel for another time. Suffice to say your point was that TFC had no leverage to trade DeRo when in fact they did, they simply played their cards wrong and got burned. None of what you posted here addresses that they misplayed the DeRo contract issue and because of that got a set of steak knives in return. When I make a bad trade for a client, I hear about it. When a contractor screws up on a job, the client gives it to him. With us, the first thing these guys did was muff up the situation with our all-time leading scorer and barely a peep from the supporters. Mindblowing.
He then goes on to show that TFC made a mistake in trading him and we STILL refuse to admit it. So be it. I will be the douchebag that keeps pointing it out.
As for posting about DeRo, I hate to tell you this but as one of the finalists for the MVP award and probably having a 50/50 chance with Davis for the award and being a former TFC player and being from Toronto, this thread was likely going to be dealing not only on the DeRo issue but also on the what-ifs and whether TFC got burned on the trade. It would seem most in the league seem to think so except for TFC fans themselves who still stubbornly applaud the trade.
In most cities, when management screws up with their star player to this degree, fans would be upset. But not here. And that is my only point about DeRo in this MVP thread.
Last edited by Roogsy; 11-10-2011 at 12:54 AM.
Moderator
Personally, I totally get how people are just plain fed-up talking about him and the trade. It's cool and I completely understand it, because it does get brought up quite a lot. Some have turned their backs on the issue and wish the others would as well and I can see how they are frustrated that it hasn't been put to bed.Actually you've moved the goalposts with this post. But it's late and I am watching Sofia Vergara on Modern Family
He then goes on to show that TFC made a mistake in trading him and we STILL refuse to admit it. So be it. I will be the douchebag that keeps pointing it out.
As for posting about DeRo, I hate to tell you this but as one of the finalists for the MVP award and probably having a 50/50 chance with Davis for the award and being a former TFC player and being from Toronto, this thread was likely going to be dealing not only on the DeRo issue but also on the what-ifs and whether TFC got burned on the trade. It would seem most in the league seem to think so except for TFC fans themselves who still stubbornly applaud the trade.
In most cities, when management screws up with their star player to this degree, fans would be upset. But not here. And that is my only point about DeRo in this MVP thread.
Myself, I don't think I'll ever be over it completely not just because I look at it as one of the biggest mistakes the club has made, but rather that no-one at the club who allowed it to happen has even acknowledged it.
More than anything though, is the belief that people still hold onto that DeRo was only looking out for himself, or wasn't putting in his best effort, or my favourite - "was a cancer in the change room". People still level these accusations despite all the overwhelming evidence and testimony to the contrary and simply expect the rest of us to nod their heads and agree.
That's what I have the biggest problem with - the fact that the opinions of fellow TFC players (such as Chad Barrett) and staff who came out to his defence mean nothing to them, but the word from the club's brass is apparently an indisputable higher truth.
Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.
^ cash, no evidence of locker room issues?
So are you contending a "Canadian sense of entitlement" and "Canada-US factions" within the room didn't exist?
Unless they were referring to that bastard Greg Sutton, we should be able to connect the dots.
The fact that these issues do not appear to exist under Winter and all but virtually disappeared when a cheque writing, hold out threatening player left town, lends credence to the belief that Mr De Rosario was a part of previous malcontent within the room.
As for trade value, a player with a max cap salary, does the cheque writing thing, makes his demands for a new contract public, gets involved in offseason controversy, threatens to hold out for the season then demands to be traded.
Oh yeah, that is dealing from a position of strength all right. I'm surprised teams weren't lining up to throw 5 first rounders at us in a package with young superstars. Where's that facepalm thingy.
Waggy et al, well reasoned points.
I agree with Roogsy that DeRo's contract was mishandled by the club, and that TFC deserves criticism for it.
Of the current staff, I hold Earl Cochrane most responsible for this mishandled issue, from the time with Celtic through to the late days of negotiation. Winter deserves a small portion of the blame, but really he was brought in at the tail end of the situation and was not familiar with the situation and all that went on before.
Paul James sometimes cryptically talks about problem people who MoJo brought into the from office that should have been cleared out when he was fired. I believe that Earl Cochrane is one of those people. Probably he was kept on mostly for continuity.
Obviously, the poisoned relationship with the club that happened under Mo probably made DeRo unwilling to compromise, and who could blame him?
Last edited by Oldtimer; 11-10-2011 at 08:59 AM.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
I did a little looking into DeRo's time in DC. Here's what I found, with no interpretation. I'll leave it up to you guys to decide what, if anything, it means.
· 18 games played
· Record of 5 W, 6 D, 7 L (he missed one game against Vancouver which was a loss)
· 13 goals scored
· 8 goals scored against non playoff teams
· 5 against playoff teams
· Didn't score in 11 games (61% of games)
· 8 of 13 goals (62%) came in 3 games, 5 of those goals were against non-playoff teams (3 TFC, 3 RSL, 2 San Jose)
· Scored in 3 games where DC United won (out of 5 DC wins since he arrived)
· Longest run of no goals was 5 games
Did you account for the game he missed against Vancouver due to national commitments?
Yeah. They actually had 19 games in the time he was there. They lost that one game.
I didn't look at assists obviously....
Ah yes, I failed to account for his debut game against Philly.
And he had 7 asissts in those 18 games as well.
Bottom line is DeRo left because he felt he deserved a DP contract, TFC didn't.. he left, proved ONCE AGAIN he deserves a DP contract and now DC is going to give it to him.. simple.
I guess fans can determine (as is their right) whether they agree with TFC not giving him a DP contract (if DC gives it to him), but certainly the arguments used in denying him those rewards keep getting knocked down.
Well Keegan it's not THAT simple. Some DP's make $600k and others $6M so there is a huge grey area there.
From what we have all seen and heard, "DP" to Dero is not a simple designation. It means $1 million+ a year and probably for more than just one year. He stated it himself during the "Mista-JDG-make-more-than-me" b**tch session which preceeded the cheque signing incident, that preceeded his Scotland adventure, which preceeded his hi-jack of media day that preceeded his exit from the club. (Coincidently the club no longer has such drama, but that's a topic for another day).
That million dollar contract just ain't gonna happen in MLS or any other league (I have been waiting six months for all those supposed big $$ euro offers to be confirmed...crickets...). It will unfortunately be a rude awakening to him and his 'team', as he is a fine player. Time will tell, but I see DeRo's Cheque Signing Tour making a stop in a MLS city near you.
Curious to know what his relationship with Winter was. On the one hand, from my knowledge of Winter's career, he's not a big fan of anyone who puts themselves above the team. On the other, a 4-3-3 would have suited DeRo really well I think. He essentially plays as that outside right winger on a 4-4-2 anyway, and would have been freed up to do that more in Winter's system. Plata-Koevermans-DeRO would have been a scary sight for defences (if that was even possible due to salary cap, etc).
At the end of the day, I agree with those who say let's get on with it and start looking forward, not backward.
I think ultimately that is the one stat that will be why he won't win. Scoring all those goals isn't the best way to get points out of games.
I wonder what his points per GOAL stat is?
Example he had 3 goals against tfc but only got a tie out of that hat trick. D.C.'s points per dero goal would be .333
I don't have time to look it up right now.
I hope he wins the mvp, being a canadian. I don't think he will though.
DeRo obviously deserved a DP salary at TFC - he was our best player by a big distance when he was here - he was the face of the team, the most marketable asset, and captain. He obviously DID deserve to be paid higher than any of the other players.
I think the argument that some people make that "he signed the contract, so he knew what had signed and he should have stuck to that", is kind of silly.
Put it this way....you start working for a new company as their star salesman, and they offer you a contract of $300,000 a year. You sign, thinking that's a good deal as you are the highest paid employee and its a lot of money! Then a couple of months later, and while you are an amazing employee and everybody loves you, the company employ a cleaning lady and they pay her $1,700,000 to clean the trash and mop floors. It then turns out that the cleaning lady isn't very good at her job, and leaves trash every day, and she isn't popular at all. I'm sure, to start with, you think "ok, I'll give this company the benefit of the doubt on giving the cleaning lady so much money, cos maybe she's the BEST cleaner in the country and needs time to settle in". But as you go on, you realise that they are just going to keep paying the lady this massive amount of money, and forget about you, the star employee who is making more money for the company than anybody else, while the cleaning lady doesn't improve at all at her job.
Putting it that way, I'm sure we would ALL agree that the company made a massive error and should obviously pay you more money. Who on this forum would just sit back and let this cleaning lady keep earning mega money, while you are the best employee, and everybody agrees, and you are still earning the same money? I, for one, would NOT sit back and just keep working. I would find it interesting if anybody could actually justify keeping working for $300,000 while the cleaning lady earns over a million. Really, can you justify that?!
To that end, MLSE and the TFC management messed up big time with DeRo. He obviously deserved more money, and I completely agree with his public display of his disapproval to the situation.
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