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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waggy View Post
    Did you see Vince/Tmac and Oakley on OTR last week? Tmac/Vince were RATTLED when Lansberg read the quote from Kobe that if that team had stayed together theyd have won at least 1 title. I came away from the whole thing feeling less bad about vince, and WAY more hateful towards Mcgrady. He just fucked up, and for NO reason. He even admitted it. That cocksucker. Also Oakley remains my favorite athlete ever.


    Also, got to say sorry Roogs, was getting a bit frustrated at this place yest. Didn't mean to go in on you personally.
    When it comes to those guys, respectively, I feel the same way.

    McGrady was never anything but a mercenary chasing money. Carter had some character, liked the city, but didn't have the mental toughness to do it all on his own.

    We had some really really good players back then, but they eventually slipped through our fingers. A friend of mine told me a story about Keon Clark playing golf with the executive team during the off season. GG was there along with a few other guys, raptors are 90% sure they are resigning Clark. Around the 5th hole, he pulls out a joint the size of a cannon and starts smoking it in front of the executive team! Long story short the guy ends up playing for the kings instead of the raptors and never really repeated the same success he had in Toronto.

    As for Oakley, who can't like a guy who there are rumors about punching out another player over a gambling debt before practice. That shit is gangster!

  2. #152
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    New York Red Bulls general manager Erik Soler insists the club did not make a mistake in trading Dwayne De Rosario earlier this year.
    http://www.tribalfootball.com/articl...united-2136651
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

  3. #153
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    ^ ah why go posting that?

    I was lead to believe that while DeRo wasn't scoring in NY, they were happy with him because of his distribution. He was apparently being used differently and because I didn't have the NY Red Bulls on Demand, I wasn't aware of this transformation.

    I was further lead to believe that the trade was made solely to beef up a back line. Not because of a desire to get something better in the midfield... the position he played.

    Now, this..??? Was I mis-lead?


    Any individual that you bring into a new environment, there could be a blossoming. Other times, it works out differently. De Rosario was a great player when he came; he was a great player when he left. He didn’t score the goals for us that we hoped.

    “But…we scored 46 goals from five different players. De Rosario would’ve never scored 15 goals for us, because we have other players scoring goals. We needed more power in the midfield, and we did a trade and were happy with the trade. The trade helped us get into the playoffs. D.C. did not get into the playoffs.

    “My worry is about how the team does, and I think the team did well in the end. We’re happy to build on the squad we have. I don’t think De Rosario was a mistake; it was something we did, something we tried. It didn’t work out so we did another trade and got another good player in the squad and we’re happy with that.”

  4. #154
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    I think he's saying Pookie that they didn't need DeRo the goal-scorer, they needed DeRo the distributing midfielder, and there were better options than DeRo for distribution.

    However, it does seem that beefing up the back-line wasn't the primary reason for the trade.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

  5. #155
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    I promised to stay out of this thread so I will simply ask this question and hope you guys answer it.

    If they needed more "offense" whether it be by goals or setting up (both of which DeRo did) why then did they trade him for a DM and then bring in a DP keeper (who will probably not return next year)? And if your answer is that they always intended on doing so, I would hope you explain how they do that without trading a large asset like DeRo?

    A little known stat you can check. During the period DeRo was with NY they were the highest scoring team in MLS. A position they lost when he left. You were saying something about team offense?

    I wonder what the chances are that Soler is saving face here? Lord knows NY is under the gun for their underperformance especially in the 2nd half when they almost flunked out of a playoff spot. Unlike TFC, other team's management do find themselves under pressure when the team underperforms and in the process give up a valuable asset that critics argue would have helped them and that asset goes on to burn his former team and win accolades. It couldn't be that could it? I'd like to see an example of management stepping up and saying "we screwed up". Hell, if TFC under MoJo never did that why would a playoff team?
    Last edited by Roogsy; 11-11-2011 at 09:29 PM.

  6. #156
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    These boards provide killer entertainment. Killer!

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevy View Post


    These boards provide killer entertainment. Killer!
    LOL

    Not going to say a word.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    I promised to stay out of this thread so I will simply ask this question and hope you guys answer it.

    If they needed more "offense" whether it be by goals or setting up (both of which DeRo did) why then did they trade him for a DM and then bring in a DP keeper (who will probably not return next year)? And if your answer is that they always intended on doing so, I would hope you explain how they do that without trading a large asset like DeRo?
    Ummm, we're not the GM Roogsy, why would we know why the amazing Red Bull GM and their World Class Coach Backe make the decisions they do, apart from what they tell us?

    They may be lying to cover face (like you suggest), or they may be telling us the truth. We don't know.

    Anyhow, you stayed out of this thread for a few hours at least.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 11-11-2011 at 10:55 PM.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    I promised to stay out of this thread so I will simply ask this question and hope you guys answer it.

    If they needed more "offense" whether it be by goals or setting up (both of which DeRo did) why then did they trade him for a DM and then bring in a DP keeper (who will probably not return next year)? And if your answer is that they always intended on doing so, I would hope you explain how they do that without trading a large asset like DeRo?

    A little known stat you can check. During the period DeRo was with NY they were the highest scoring team in MLS. A position they lost when he left. You were saying something about team offense?

    I wonder what the chances are that Soler is saving face here? Lord knows NY is under the gun for their underperformance especially in the 2nd half when they almost flunked out of a playoff spot.
    I think if NY had DeRo in the playoffs they might have won. I never got why they traded the guy after acquiring him for specific reasons, he seemed to be performing the way he was expected to so it's bewildering why they would trade him if he was meeting expectations. They sure could have used his offensive prowess in the playoffs.

  10. #160
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    ^It's been discussed, but I still think Backe didn't expect Dero to be committed to the CMNT. Dero missed games, and Backe got mad.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    ^It's been discussed, but I still think Backe didn't expect Dero to be committed to the CMNT. Dero missed games, and Backe got mad.
    Marquez missed games too. They made a huge mistake trading him now they're just making excuses.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waggy View Post
    Did you see Vince/Tmac and Oakley on OTR last week? Tmac/Vince were RATTLED when Lansberg read the quote from Kobe that if that team had stayed together theyd have won at least 1 title. I came away from the whole thing feeling less bad about vince, and WAY more hateful towards Mcgrady. He just fucked up, and for NO reason. He even admitted it. That cocksucker. Also Oakley remains my favorite athlete ever.
    Dude I shed a tear after watching this episode.

    T-Mac and VC leaving the team were catalysts in me hating the management of the Leafs and Raptors in Toronto and resulting in me dropping them both like a bad habit (no more game attendance, no more tv watching since). And the departure of Bosch and to a lesser extent Dero has since justified my decision in my mind. If you can't keep these stars or attract other legitimate stars then what does that say about management?

    I feel that TFC now having 3 dp's means that management is committed in spending all its possible resources which I was starting to doubt after the first few years where we didn't even have one dp. And the fact that the last 2 dp's (and the 1st dp to some extent) worked out so far this year is huge. The raptors need to spend heavily into the luxury tax if they ever want to see me back at the ACC.

    This is a great market, and it makes its owners tonnes of money and I expect maximum salary spending on my teams in return.

    The fact that T-Mac, Vince, Oak, Kobe, me, Waggy, Agfutbol and most of Toronto feel that they threw away / ruined something special makes me want to punch a hole in the wall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by habstfc View Post
    I think if NY had DeRo in the playoffs they might have won. I never got why they traded the guy after acquiring him for specific reasons, he seemed to be performing the way he was expected to so it's bewildering why they would trade him if he was meeting expectations. They sure could have used his offensive prowess in the playoffs.
    Not to mention his knack for rising up to the occasion a la Montreal, and his previous MLS cup playoff efforts. Dero is made for prime time.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonso View Post
    The fact that T-Mac, Vince, Oak, Kobe, me, Waggy, Agfutbol and most of Toronto feel that they threw away / ruined something special makes me want to punch a hole in the wall.
    I dunno how you cut them out. I try to cut the Raptors basically annually, but I just can't quit them. Bosh leaving doesn't bother me, but the way he left was really shady. Much more Vince than Dero. It seemed like he decided around the all star break (RIGHT after the trade deadline) that he wasn't coming back. You could see it in his play, and also if you go back and look at how he'd answer questions from before and after, it seems like that theory has some credence to it. So by then it was too late to trade him, we had to hope for a sign and trade. He then missed something like 10 of the last 18 games, first with a sprain and then a broken nose. He missed 6 games because of that broken nose. Had Toronto won 1 of those games, we'd have made the playoffs. Theres 2 losses of those last 6 games I really remember, but the most painful was definitely when we lost to Cleveland in OT at home without him.


    And man, like ensco said, the way Vince left Toronto was just so huge, so imfamous that I think most sports fans in north america know what could have been with that team. (I LOVE when Simmons shouts that out. Always makes my day a little brighter, I don't know why). But the whole situations really sad. And after that OTR I can't help but think it's no-one but T-Macs fault. Grenwald and Babcock definitely didn't help anything, but from the OTR it sounds like if T-Mac stays, then Vince stays and we would have had the early 2000's equiv of the wade/lebron combo (obviously not as good, but still, 2 of the most dominant scorers of the past decade)

  15. #165
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    Me personally, I could care less about Bosh. Doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same breath with McGrady or Carter who are both legit primary options on playoff quality teams. CB4 is at best your second best player on an average team who plays terrible defense. And if you needed any more proof of where that guy is at, look how skinny the dude was when he showed up this year. He should have been hitting the gym like he did the year before, but hey who needs to do that now that the money is in the bank?

    Anyway, I went from watching 60+ raptors games a year on TV plus going to 4-5 games a year to going to maybe one game (mainly to see who they are playing) and ignoring the raptors on TV in favor of watching the rest of the league. Frankly, the way they run the team is disgusting and unworthy of my support.

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    Quote Originally Posted by habstfc View Post
    Marquez missed games too.
    Marquez starred for FCB, and the Mexican MNT is a big deal. I don't think Backe felt Dero, or the CMNT, deserved the same consideration. He definitely was publicly expecting Dero not to play CMNT games.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    “Years have gone by and I’ve finally learned to accept myself for who I am: a beggar for good football.

    I go about the world, hand outstretched, and in the stadiums I plead: ‘A pretty move, for the love of God.’

    And when good football happens, I give thanks for the miracle and I don’t give a damn which team or country performs it.”

    -Eduardo Galeano

  18. #168
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    So Becks is privy to the vote totals eh? I guess MLS doesn't use a secure accounting firm. LOL.

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    Players get a 1/3 vote.

    Don't think it is out of the realm of possible that with the MVP going to the First Place team in 8 of the last 10 years that they would give it to Davis.

    Honestly, all this talk about the various options... how many Houston Dynamo games did any of us actually see?

    As for Soler and Backe comments on DeRo... I'm pretty sure I was mis-lead.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    So Becks is privy to the vote totals eh? I guess MLS doesn't use a secure accounting firm. LOL.
    Well that'd make it WAY harder for MLS to rig it. Jeez, next thing you'll be asking Concacaf to do their draws at least somewhat publicly.

  21. #171
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    The whole idea of an MVP in soccer is a bit silly. It's a team sport, and whilst some individuals really shine and give exciting plays, it's really having a well-built and winning team that counts.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    ^It's been discussed, but I still think Backe didn't expect Dero to be committed to the CMNT. Dero missed games, and Backe got mad.
    Why wouldn't he expect that? DeRo missed tons of games with us, to play for the CMNT.

    I don't think Backe is the god of footy managers, but I can't imagine he's that dense.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Dero is not Vince Carter. I mean c'mon.

    Carter shut it down on the court to get traded. That is extremely rare. Dero did nothing of the sort.

    Bill Simmons still goes out of his way to talk about how what Carter did was the worst thing he ever saw in professional sports, and how much he loves it that Vince still gets booed here.
    Yeah, I call bunk on letting Carter off the hook for his actions, or worse, putting it on the Raptors instead. Carter tanked himself, to get traded. Worse, Carter ADMITTED he tanked, to get traded. That's a cardinal sin of professional athletics, and something that would incense any sports fan.

    For it to be the one-time beloved star player of the team, just compounded things times a thousand.

    McGrady was a bum too, but Carter earned his reviled status in this city.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    Why wouldn't he expect that? DeRo missed tons of games with us, to play for the CMNT.

    I don't think Backe is the god of footy managers, but I can't imagine he's that dense.

    - Scott

    Here you go. Soler says Dero's agent said so.
    http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/soccer...PZQoRDOQSGl4gN
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by ensco View Post
    Here you go. Soler says Dero's agent said so.
    http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/soccer...PZQoRDOQSGl4gN
    If it's true (and it could just be a GM trying to give himself cover by blaming the agent), then that's really dense, and means he didn't do his homework on why DeRo stopped playing for the CMNT for a while. Unreal.

    That's a pretty scathing article of DeRo's time in NY, though. Wow. Especially these parts:


    But…we scored 46 goals from five different players. De Rosario would’ve never scored 15 goals for us, because we have other players scoring goals. We needed more power in the midfield, and we did a trade and were happy with the trade. The trade helped us get into the playoffs. D.C. did not get into the playoffs.

    “My worry is about how the team does, and I think the team did well in the end. We’re happy to build on the squad we have. I don’t think De Rosario was a mistake; it was something we did, something we tried. It didn’t work out so we did another trade and got another good player in the squad and we’re happy with that.



    ...


    De Rosario also made no secret of his desire to sign a long-term Designated Player contract, and that was an investment the Red Bulls were unwilling or incapable of making; and it was clear from his FC Toronto stay that an underpaid De Rosario can be a disruptive De Rosario.

    Definitely lends credence to the idea that we might be getting saturated by too much "insider info" coming from one self-interested side, and hence, not getting the fuller, more accurate picture. Or it's Soler covering his behind, combined with a sports writer lazily casting aspersions they can't back up. Wouldn't be the first time.

    Though even then, the best justification Soler offers for why DeRo wasn't a mistake is essentially "it was worth a shot". That's pretty bad.

    - Scott
    Last edited by Shakes McQueen; 11-13-2011 at 12:21 AM.
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    I kinda want Beckham to get the award, it will give the league a bit more international attention.

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    Ben hits the nail on the head re: MeRo...


    http://www.canadiansoccernews.com/co...DeRo-MVP-thing

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    Definitely lends credence to the idea that we might be getting saturated by too much "insider info" coming from one self-interested side,
    On this forum I see more of the opposite. People bending over backwards to defend one of the worst trades in TFC history, leaving the team's offence in shambles for more than half the regular season. Part of this is due to the love of Aron Winter. And part is due to the pro-management stance of a lot of the supporters on this forum.

    And the anti-DeRo bunch continue to try to slag him, despite the fact that his play proves the opposite of what all his detractors were saying.

    Its funny to read though. The anti-DeRo bunch remind me a bit of the Tea Party in the US.
    Last edited by menefreghista; 11-13-2011 at 09:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by menefreghista View Post
    The anti-DeRo bunch remind me a bit of the Tea Party in the US.
    In what way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    If it's true (and it could just be a GM trying to give himself cover by blaming the agent), then that's really dense, and means he didn't do his homework on why DeRo stopped playing for the CMNT for a while. Unreal.

    That's a pretty scathing article of DeRo's time in NY, though. Wow. Especially these parts:

    Definitely lends credence to the idea that we might be getting saturated by too much "insider info" coming from one self-interested side, and hence, not getting the fuller, more accurate picture. Or it's Soler covering his behind, combined with a sports writer lazily casting aspersions they can't back up. Wouldn't be the first time.

    Though even then, the best justification Soler offers for why DeRo wasn't a mistake is essentially "it was worth a shot". That's pretty bad.

    - Scott
    So we're still sticking to the story that Soler isn't under fire right now and making excuses for a year full of underperformance and drama? This article was a very interesting read, especially the national call-ups part that seem to back up Ensco's point.

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/mo...ticle-1.975760

    Perhaps Soler’s worst transaction was trading Dwayne de Rosario, a candidate to win his third league MVP award, in what appears a botched exchange.

    Pressed on the subject last month, Soler refused to concede he had made a mistake by acquiring and trading away De Rosario in a span of three months. “It’s nobody’s fault it didn’t work out,” he said. “It just wasn’t a good fit here.”

    But Thierry Henry, the team’s mega-star, disagreed that a player of De Rosario’s talent couldn’t fit.
    Hmmm...doesn't sound like he's getting much grief over the DeRo trade does it? LOL! The only people applauding this trade are the anti-DeRo crowd in Toronto.

    According to multiple sources, D.C. United’s original offer for De Rosario included a high allocation pick and Dax McCarty. Soler rejected the deal. When he finally decided to pull the trigger, D.C. was only willing to give up McCarty — a midfielder who wasn’t nearly as productive as De Rosario and who served a one-game team suspension in October.

    Avoiding any potential confrontation, Soler reportedly didn’t tell De Rosario he had been traded. Soler also failed to personally tell Danleigh Borman and Tony Tchani they had been traded for Rosario, according to a league source.
    Man this guy sounds like the 2nd coming of Mo Johnson!

    We are talking about a GM that wanted to renegotiate an extension to DeRo, but a few months later is revising his story?

    http://www.newyorkredbulls.com/news/...ges-are-coming

    “When he’s back, we will speak to him to see where he’s at and what is
    possible,” Solér said. “We hope, of course, that we can have him for
    more years.”
    So let me get this straight, in November he thinks moving DeRo was the right move, but in June he was talking about extending his contract? DeRo was only moved 2 weeks after this article, did he all of a sudden have a cataclysmic dip in form that made Soler see the error of his ways? Or was it the Gold Cup departure coupled with NY's defensive woes during the season? Which seems more reasonable to you people?

    So right now he's talking about needing more goals and yet when he traded for McCarty this was the story:

    http://www.newyorkredbulls.com/news/...-more-signings

    Solér said the Red Bulls are looking at a move to bring in a defender during the summer transfer window, and that the versatility shown by Designated Player Thierry Henry could result in the Frenchman playing in a No. 10 role for the team, perhaps filling in the role vacated by De Rosario.
    So was this a move to bring in some sort of magical goal-scoring defender? And McCarty was it? That's what it would have to be for the naysayers in this thread. And the next move? A DP keeper. In fact, of all the trades in the transfer window, all of them were moves to acquire "defensive" players, like Jones from KC. Where exactly were these goals they needed going to come from? And nobody has yet to answer why a team that was tops in the league in goals was "looking for more goals".

    We're getting the Soler spin right now and you guys are willingly buying into it without putting things into context. What did Backe say when DeRo returned from Gold Cup duty?

    http://www.newyorkredbulls.com/news/...ls-bittersweet

    And while teammate Thierry Henry said that he was glad to have De
    Rosario back, he definitely wasn’t rooting against De Ro and Canada.
    Head coach Hans Backe, however, was a little more open with his response
    to the return of the midfielder.
    “I was pretty happy,” Backe said.
    What does that sound like to you guys? In fact, have we heard a single thing from Backe that reinforces what Soler is dishing right now? You'd really need it considering that Soler is contradicting himself all over the place.

    You know, I really hate having to go back on my word about staying out of this thread, but you guys and your refusal to do your homework, refusal to remember things the way they actually happen and your choice to accept only the information only that fits your narrative including rewriting history forces me to have to constantly provide information that contradicts the false information you promote due to your bias. (Not talking about you Scott, but you are not providing the balance that you normally would.) Given what I provided you, do you still believe Soler believed acquiring DeRo was about taking a "shot" at something? And that when he traded him it's because that "shot" didn't work out?

    I hope to see some explanations for what I provided above. There needs to be reconciliation between Soler's comments in June and the ones he has made now in November. Without such reconciliation, it is selective quoting and nothing else. Bascially it's the anti-DeRo crows is just throwing shit against the wall and hoping something sticks.
    Last edited by Roogsy; 11-13-2011 at 10:45 AM.

 

 

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