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  1. #121
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    ^

    a) Passing and positioning is generally poor. Lots of short passing to people heavily marked and a complete lack of movement off the ball to give options for passing. Dreadful crossing from both wings.

    b) yes

    c) Other than the marosovic chance in the first half we created almost no goal possible moves.

    d) we could have won it yes. Based on the law of averages. Based on the play no. Dallas scored and missed a penalty and had a few other decent attempts. We had only one clear chance to score. At one point Dallas cleared a corner i think and within about 10-15 secs they had shifted the ball up the park through good passing and won a corner. We never did anything like that. Our build up was slow. Usually a pass across the back to the wing. A little saunter up the wing a a touchline hugging ball for plata to run after before it went out for a throw.

    I don't know where you watched the game from to see that they could have won. If you were in the singing crowd that spent most of the second half shouting abuse at the goakeeper then you may have missed what was happening on the park.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by 69Chevy396 View Post
    He is capable of scoring and is a talented and versatile player. Any footballer who can play for so long for one of the world's greatest National teams, and score dozens of great goals in the process was not signed by the second worst team in third tier MLS to play central defender.
    Dozens of goals?

    He's got 10 in 80 int'l matches and 60 in over 450 club matches.

    Frings is not a goal scorer, he's a hard tackler with precision ball movement ability and is a natural leader.

  3. #123
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    Was it just me or did anyone else find Marosevic slower than a turtle in both the abandoned and completed matches?

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzard View Post
    That's what people said and we ended up getting four of the six available points. They got one.
    Well a 0-0 between pumas and panama means I hold on to my optimism


  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    So who do you give more time? The player or the coach?
    Both. This is not a video game where you can move players around at will with no effect on the performance.

    It's a team game where success is based heavily on familiarity and team chemistry. We just replaced more or less the entire team and now we need to give them time to gel. A number of players also did not play much before coming here so there is also a matter of match fitness. I don't think we will really see what this group has to offer until next year.

    Our results since Winter gutted the team have actually been a lot better than I expected they would be.

    As for the manager - replace him and you are back to square one.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by brad View Post
    Both. This is not a video game where you can move players around at will with no effect on the performance.

    It's a team game where success is based heavily on familiarity and team chemistry. We just replaced more or less the entire team and now we need to give them time to gel. A number of players also did not play much before coming here so there is also a matter of match fitness. I don't think we will really see what this group has to offer until next year.

    Our results since Winter gutted the team have actually been a lot better than I expected they would be.

    As for the manager - replace him and you are back to square one.
    I was only pointing out that the discussion was leading to an either/or debate. Your right, of course players need time to gel. If they are let go early there should be a good reason. Especially with the amount of present turnover.

    BTW's if this is a video game it's the most expensive one I've come across. NOt only that but the weather where I play this video game sucks.
    FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER

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    Quote Originally Posted by jloome View Post
    No, not by definition. It depends why they're pissed off. It's one thing to expect another team to win because of performance to date, it's another to assume that domination is so complete that their opponents' lack of contribution is never a factor.

    Our work ethic was shit for the first 70 minutes. We closed slowly, moved little or poorly off the ball and didn't switch play frequently, even though it was obvious we needed to create more space.

    I expect to lose to a better team, sure. But if it's not accompanied by the kind of effort required to occasionally upset a better team, then it's entirely rational to get pissed off.
    Fair enough. I too was disappointed with the effort which is something we can control. I'm not sure that a stronger effort would have produced a different result but at least we'd know they'd given it everything they had.

    That said, with the Pumas/Tauro draw last night, we are in good shape. 2 points clear and we currently hold the tiebreaker on Tauro. While we may lament the stinky Dallas game let's not forget the important 2 road goals and 3 points in Tauro.

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    Just to clarify:

    Frings has scored remarkable goals, and has been a mainstay in the German attack for many years. His forays into the opposing end are what started many goal scoring chances for that club. Calling him a defensive specialist is simply wrong. He could do it all. Very versatile. So, when you recruit him to play in what amounts to a third tier German or Italian or English league, there is no way millions are spent to watch him play central defense. Sorry, this is just crazy. And yes, he can play defense, or holding mid, or even keeper if he wanted to. That is not the point. He was brought here to set up goals. Period. That is what Winter told us. Yet now the apologists forget this.

    Winters told us he would rebuild, and that is why he went after Tchani etc. Remember what he said about this player? Future all star etc. If you are going to convince your fans that a rebuild is necessary than you don't talk through the side of your mouth. Trading Tchani was a sign of desperation by a manager who had no clue what he was doing.

    Gordon may be injured, yes, so what. Players get injured all the time. You don't make long term plans around this factor, instead you build a team of solid team around your best players. If Frings brakes a leg on Saturday some of you guys will say we should have traded him cause look, he is injured now.

    MLS is a developing league, and not a very good one. You build interesting and winning teams by filling the squad with average to better than average north american players with some international ringers. It is easy really. You draft Cronin. You keep Cronin. You trade for Labrocca, you keep him. You draft Attakora, you keep him. In the end your team wins more than this woeful club is now. How can anybody say things are good when they are last except for Vancouver?

  9. #129
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    So many inaccuracies and logical fallacies... must...resist...responding.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by 69Chevy396 View Post
    Just to clarify:

    Frings has scored remarkable goals, and has been a mainstay in the German attack for many years.
    No he has been a defensive mid for many years.

    Quote Originally Posted by 69Chevy396 View Post
    Gordon may be injured, yes, so what.
    When you are injured all of the time you can't contribute! The most goals Gordon has scored in a season is 5 (in 26 games). He has played 11 games this year and had 21 last year. How can you succeed with a striker who isn't playing or scoring?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    Building a team in MLS, is not primarily accomplished through kids. This isn't the NHL or NFL, where the draft is still the best way to build a team. We have a world of footballers available to us, of all ages. As such, bringing in veteran players isn't such a big deal, because they aren't irreplacable.

    Building a proper team isn't a straight line up - Winter is going to, and has made, mistakes along the way. Some acquisitions won't work out, and some will.

    Yes, this seems to be what's happening. Once we got over all the pre-season marketing talk about bringing in "the best FO in MLS" and "establishing a culture" and all that "vision" talk just started to build a typical MLS team like the rest of the league things started to look better.

  12. #132
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    Experienced players help the kids develop.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    Yes, this seems to be what's happening. Once we got over all the pre-season marketing talk about bringing in "the best FO in MLS" and "establishing a culture" and all that "vision" talk just started to build a typical MLS team like the rest of the league things started to look better.
    Building a team culture and having a vision for the club, are different than how you go about acquiring the players that fit within it.

    But yes, the stuff about having "The Best FO in MLS" is just marketing pap. It's impossible to gauge unless you're constantly winning the league, for one.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Winter on Tchani, referencing DeRO; “He’s a good player. It’s a pity if he’s going to go away,” Winter said before the deal was done. “But still, we are rebuilding a team and we want to try also young players and other players who maybe in the future are coming.”

    Winter, on trading Tchani for Iro: “We needed help on defence and Andy is a defender that we have wanted to bring in for some time,” Toronto FC coach Aron Winter said in a release. “After our deals yesterday we felt we could move a central midfielder of value to acquire an important piece. Leandre also provides us depth in the midfield.”

    On IRO, local media comments on the trade:" Winter said he had done his research and 26-year-old Iro was the kind of experienced central defender he had been hoping to acquire to bring quality to Toronto’s underachieving backline. A native of Liverpool, England, Iro has made 58 MLS appearances and was part of Columbus’ 2008 MLS Cup win. This season, however, the 6-foot-4 defender has played only four games"

    I realize Tchani had his faults, like most young players in MLS. Drafted second overall however, should mean something. Evidently, it means nothing. TFC scouts and Winter felt Andy Iro was a much better prospect. And we have seen how well that has turned out for us.

    Funny how all through the year that Dero was playing prior to the cheque signing joke, posters in here, including myself, would have said I was stupid to even consider moving Dero. He was and is, the best all time TFC player. How fickle people are. If he were still on the team, more fans would care about this club and the league. It was a marketing and public relations disaster. All the talk of rebuilding by the new guy is a load of crap when you look at this one Tchani/\Iro matter. Then add all the other stupid moves, and we will be watching another rebuild next year, and the year after, and after.....

    I make no apologies. I liked Dero. I liked his tenacity. I liked his unpredictability and his penchant for scoring goals when you least expected them. I see nothing among the new players who offer anything remotely similar in both quality or expectation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RooneyRPB View Post
    Well a 0-0 between pumas and panama means I hold on to my optimism

    As do I. It was a very fortunate result for us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greatest Ripoff View Post
    No he has been a defensive mid for many years.



    When you are injured all of the time you can't contribute! The most goals Gordon has scored in a season is 5 (in 26 games). He has played 11 games this year and had 21 last year. How can you succeed with a striker who isn't playing or scoring?
    ... or a striker that is attacking a team staffer. That was the final nail in his TFC coffin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blizzard View Post
    ... or a striker that is attacking a team staffer. That was the final nail in his TFC coffin.
    huh? never head about that one

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    Quote Originally Posted by 69Chevy396 View Post
    I realize Tchani had his faults, like most young players in MLS. Drafted second overall however, should mean something. Evidently, it means nothing. TFC scouts and Winter felt Andy Iro was a much better prospect. And we have seen how well that has turned out for us.
    Iro wasn't a "prospect". Winter traded Tchani, in an attempt to fill a gaping hole in our lineup with a veteran defender who had previously been named player of the year on his team. We had depth at midfield, and Tchani didn't look like he was quite ready for regular MLS minutes, so they traded him. You have to trade perceived value to get perceived value back. And it still remains to be seen what Tchani will become, or what management here saw in him.

    Iro hasn't worked out great for us so far, but I don't think it was a terrible idea - and many other people didn't either, at the time.

    The bottom line is that Tchani was surplus to our immediate needs, so he became a bargaining chip.

    I can also show you a list of people drafted high into MLS, who have become mediocre at best - including a few who were drafted by TFC. The NCAA draft is a thoroughly mixed bag.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFC USA View Post
    This might be the most backwards expansion side ever created.

    Portland could make the playoffs in year one, Seattle already did, Philly might make in year two, we need six years at the least.
    With the payer turnover this year..we have a new team on the pitch since July and everyone expects and accepts that were are we deserve to be in CCL...c'mon

    RED & GREY DISEASE IS SPREADING LIKE WILDFIRE HERE. MLSE MUST HAVE PLANTED THE VIRUS!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 69Chevy396 View Post
    Winter on Tchani, referencing DeRO; “He’s a good player. It’s a pity if he’s going to go away,” Winter said before the deal was done. “But still, we are rebuilding a team and we want to try also young players and other players who maybe in the future are coming.”
    That's a quote saying future, prospect.

    Winter, on trading Tchani for Iro: “We needed help on defence and Andy is a defender that we have wanted to bring in for some time,” Toronto FC coach Aron Winter said in a release. “After our deals yesterday we felt we could move a central midfielder of value to acquire an important piece. Leandre also provides us depth in the midfield.”
    That's a quote NOT about future, prospect. An important piece. That's it.

    On IRO, local media comments on the trade:" Winter said he had done his research and 26-year-old Iro was the kind of experienced central defender he had been hoping to acquire to bring quality to Toronto’s underachieving backline. A native of Liverpool, England, Iro has made 58 MLS appearances and was part of Columbus’ 2008 MLS Cup win. This season, however, the 6-foot-4 defender has played only four games"

    I realize Tchani had his faults, like most young players in MLS. Drafted second overall however, should mean something. Evidently, it means nothing. TFC scouts and Winter felt Andy Iro was a much better prospect. And we have seen how well that has turned out for us.
    No. They never said Iro would be a better prospect. He was filling a role. He did it poorly.

    Funny how all through the year that Dero was playing prior to the cheque signing joke, posters in here, including myself, would have said I was stupid to even consider moving Dero. He was and is, the best all time TFC player. How fickle people are. If he were still on the team, more fans would care about this club and the league. It was a marketing and public relations disaster. All the talk of rebuilding by the new guy is a load of crap when you look at this one Tchani/\Iro matter. Then add all the other stupid moves, and we will be watching another rebuild next year, and the year after, and after.....

    I make no apologies. I liked Dero. I liked his tenacity. I liked his unpredictability and his penchant for scoring goals when you least expected them. I see nothing among the new players who offer anything remotely similar in both quality or expectation.
    If we had kept DeRo the team and league would be better followed? On the road we were on? DeRo was a key part of that marketing relations disaster you speak of.

    What's happening here is we are witnessing over a season the concentration on development (Tchani and other kids) when DeRo had to go and then the boys at the top opened the war chest for 2 more DP's.

    If your complaining that the development/long term strategy took a back seat because we finally got the DP's we could always afford I don't know what to say to that.

    I just wish we had this plan before the season started.
    FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER

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    Quote Originally Posted by 69Chevy396 View Post
    Just to clarify:

    Frings has scored remarkable goals, and has been a mainstay in the German attack for many years. His forays into the opposing end are what started many goal scoring chances for that club. Calling him a defensive specialist is simply wrong. He could do it all. Very versatile. So, when you recruit him to play in what amounts to a third tier German or Italian or English league, there is no way millions are spent to watch him play central defense. Sorry, this is just crazy. And yes, he can play defense, or holding mid, or even keeper if he wanted to. That is not the point. He was brought here to set up goals. Period. That is what Winter told us. Yet now the apologists forget this.

    Winters told us he would rebuild, and that is why he went after Tchani etc. Remember what he said about this player? Future all star etc. If you are going to convince your fans that a rebuild is necessary than you don't talk through the side of your mouth. Trading Tchani was a sign of desperation by a manager who had no clue what he was doing.

    Gordon may be injured, yes, so what. Players get injured all the time. You don't make long term plans around this factor, instead you build a team of solid team around your best players. If Frings brakes a leg on Saturday some of you guys will say we should have traded him cause look, he is injured now.

    MLS is a developing league, and not a very good one. You build interesting and winning teams by filling the squad with average to better than average north american players with some international ringers. It is easy really. You draft Cronin. You keep Cronin. You trade for Labrocca, you keep him. You draft Attakora, you keep him. In the end your team wins more than this woeful club is now. How can anybody say things are good when they are last except for Vancouver?
    man you're killing me lol, I think with all your angst you really care for this team,..lol..you've certainly voiced your frustrations....I can sympathize but I do not think our league is "not very good", we might now be 'not very good' but Dallas, RSL etc are GOOD teams...emphasis on TEAM. And how about LA, Robbie Keane is not 'past his prime' and he"his wife"(sic) chose to play in LA. I like this league and as can be seen by your frustration/devotion, the league is getting very competitive. Dallas, RSL etc are playing a good game and after watching Peterborough beat Ipswich last weak 7-1 how would you feel if that was TFC...That game and talent was the worst display of soccer I've seen since watching Caribbean games, lol..AND that was the English Championship League!!!!...I'll go with Jaunito and say we just have to bear with it try to enjoy the ride. Even the best fail many times.....Everyones critism's are VERY valid,..but Nana had to go, I watched him close up at reserves and he's a different man,(still say he'll never fully recover from his injuries);..and wanted out..to play! Presently, our backend is always letting us down. If a team can't score on us, we are well on our way! All the good teams have talented monsters on D....note I said talented. I love the majority of posters deep enthusiasm, and can feel it in everyone's disappointment...It's like a sliver, you can't remove, baring MLSE selling haha,..Guess we just grind our teeth. Remember though the last 4 years mean nothing to Winter. This team is only 1 year old to him!....enjoy the passion though! Hold fast what else is there!..btw support the academy everyone!
    ALL HELL'S BROKEN LOOSEhttp://gfycat.com/SharpKindArrowana

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    I just wish we had this plan before the season started.
    I seem to recall an interview with Mariner where he said they wanted to give the entire lineup a fair shake before deciding who needed to go, hence the massive turnover as soon as the window opened.

    I also presume Koevermans and Frings still weren't available when our season started, so pruning needed to be done to make way for their cap hits.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    Quote Originally Posted by MartinUtd View Post
    huh? never head about that one
    he mentioned his injury, was misdiagnosed, and he was forced to play when he wasn't ready, leading to his reinjury.......whaaaaa! Certainly not hockey players who on many occasions bite the bullet for the team..and who criticizes a situation when it is finished?..or shifts blame to another?...nuff said
    ALL HELL'S BROKEN LOOSEhttp://gfycat.com/SharpKindArrowana

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    I seem to recall an interview with Mariner where he said they wanted to give the entire lineup a fair shake before deciding who needed to go, hence the massive turnover as soon as the window opened.

    I also presume Koevermans and Frings still weren't available when our season started, so pruning needed to be done to make way for their cap hits.

    - Scott
    Cool but with 4 seasons of frustrated fans you'd presume they would've had plenty of motivation to start the season with the team they wanted to get them to the window. I accept there can be 2 starts to every season but there were a frustrating amount of moves in between for me.
    FORMER FULL TIME KOOL-AID DRINKER

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fort York Redcoat View Post
    Cool but with 4 seasons of frustrated fans you'd presume they would've had plenty of motivation to start the season with the team they wanted to get them to the window. I accept there can be 2 starts to every season but there were a frustrating amount of moves in between for me.
    I suspect even Winter and Mariner don't want us to be happy about it, after four years of garbage - they just want us to understand their reasoning for doing it that way.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

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    I am the first to admit I am not nearly as well versed in the technical , aspects of soccer as many of you are. That is why I like reading these threads, and why I come here so often. In some ways, this is, for me at least, a good place to gain some understanding of MLS etc, when I am not at BMO. But Jesus. Supporting this team is as painful as a good kick to the testicles, or having the Devil stuff a pineapple up your butt for eternity. Wait two years for a star striker. Star striker is signed. Star striker is traded for prospect. Prospect is traded for solid defender. Solid defender sucks and is booed off the pitch after playing so poorly. What is a lukewarm fan like me supposed to make out of this? The average Torontonian could care less about soccer, and even less about TFC. For this to change, somebody needs to explain this perplexing course of events that continue month after month and year after year. How can one believe in Winter by the way he handled the Dero, Gordon and Tchani issue? This is reminicent of Carver and cunningham. I am not trying to piss people off here, I respect what the RPB do for the club and for the atmosphere at BMO. I realize you guys are forever optimistic but how can an average fan count on this team actually giving them an entertaining product for years to come based on what has happened this year alone?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 69Chevy396 View Post
    I am the first to admit I am not nearly as well versed in the technical , aspects of soccer as many of you are. That is why I like reading these threads, and why I come here so often. In some ways, this is, for me at least, a good place to gain some understanding of MLS etc, when I am not at BMO. But Jesus. Supporting this team is as painful as a good kick to the testicles, or having the Devil stuff a pineapple up your butt for eternity. Wait two years for a star striker. Star striker is signed. Star striker is traded for prospect. Prospect is traded for solid defender. Solid defender sucks and is booed off the pitch after playing so poorly. What is a lukewarm fan like me supposed to make out of this? The average Torontonian could care less about soccer, and even less about TFC. For this to change, somebody needs to explain this perplexing course of events that continue month after month and year after year. How can one believe in Winter by the way he handled the Dero, Gordon and Tchani issue? This is reminicent of Carver and cunningham. I am not trying to piss people off here, I respect what the RPB do for the club and for the atmosphere at BMO. I realize you guys are forever optimistic but how can an average fan count on this team actually giving them an entertaining product for years to come based on what has happened this year alone?
    Good question, and one which will obviously have to be answered by success on the field. There are many like yourself questioning their support of the team and if we aren't entertained soon we will slowly fade away. It's not just TFC we all care about, the common thread is our 'love of the game'. TFC is our vehicle to our hometown game experience. Hopefully we can all enjoy a positive soccer experience from TFC, sooner if not later. I try to put myself in the coach/mgr's shoes and it must be difficult, obviously no mgr wants to lose, so at this point in time I have to believe in the 'pro' who is running the team. I will allow him to put his stamp on the club, and with fingers crossed success or at least entertaining soccer will follow. BUT lets go with the youngsters FFS....Borman, and those who really are not the future stay on the bench.............pleaasee
    ALL HELL'S BROKEN LOOSEhttp://gfycat.com/SharpKindArrowana

  28. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by 69Chevy396 View Post
    Just to clarify:

    Frings has scored remarkable goals, and has been a mainstay in the German attack for many years. His forays into the opposing end are what started many goal scoring chances for that club. Calling him a defensive specialist is simply wrong. He could do it all. Very versatile. So, when you recruit him to play in what amounts to a third tier German or Italian or English league, there is no way millions are spent to watch him play central defense. Sorry, this is just crazy. And yes, he can play defense, or holding mid, or even keeper if he wanted to. That is not the point. He was brought here to set up goals. Period. That is what Winter told us. Yet now the apologists forget this.

    Winters told us he would rebuild, and that is why he went after Tchani etc. Remember what he said about this player? Future all star etc. If you are going to convince your fans that a rebuild is necessary than you don't talk through the side of your mouth. Trading Tchani was a sign of desperation by a manager who had no clue what he was doing.

    Gordon may be injured, yes, so what. Players get injured all the time. You don't make long term plans around this factor, instead you build a team of solid team around your best players. If Frings brakes a leg on Saturday some of you guys will say we should have traded him cause look, he is injured now.

    MLS is a developing league, and not a very good one. You build interesting and winning teams by filling the squad with average to better than average north american players with some international ringers. It is easy really. You draft Cronin. You keep Cronin. You trade for Labrocca, you keep him. You draft Attakora, you keep him. In the end your team wins more than this woeful club is now. How can anybody say things are good when they are last except for Vancouver?
    Dude, you can put it in 2,000 words if you like, but this is just reinvention of history. Frings has been a defensive specialist his entire career. Yes, he has a good shot and scores good goals, but he's never been a consistently high goal scorer and I'd be interested in seeing the quote in which Winter allegedly said he was brought here to set up goals.

    As for Tchani, he's vastly overrated, which is why NY let him go, why he wasn't starting in Colombus and why he won't really be missed there when he goes on the DL for surgery, which is about to happen.

    Nana's got potential but he also has issues, quite evidently, as he's been a total train wreck in San Jose so far.

    So, you can argue potential all you want, or that he's making desperation moves, but so far the reality of how those players have performed in every other locale supports the decision.

    As for building interest, they've increased the average attendance across the league by over 5,000 fans a game over the last decade and by more than a million in term of professional soccer attendance all told. So something there suggests they're not total fuck ups.

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    You can always trust jloome to come in and start throwing haymakers, haha.

    - Scott
    “Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens

 

 

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