TFC 0 - FC Dallas 1: Post Match Threadgasm

[69Chevy396]

This might be the most backwards expansion side ever created.

Portland could make the playoffs in year one, Seattle already did, Philly might make in year two, we need six years at the least.

Get used to it my friend. This is Toronto, where mlse reigns supreme and losing is part of the process and the plan. Need a rookie manager anybody?

And, based on a few games, Frings, while better than JDG, appears to be another wasted DP signing. Yes he is a proven winner. Yes he has scored and won in many world cup games. But, as a defender, he may as well be Attakora or Gargan. We lose with, or without him. Until we see him play a dozen games as an attacking midfielder, his presence will be a complete waste. What the fuck is the manager thinking?

[evermorian]

What the fuck is the manager thinking?

What would you have the manager to do? With a depleted back line and an incompetent center back in Iro, he has to put the best available person in that position. Right now, unfortunately, that person is Frings. What would you do? Right now Winter has to work with what he has, and unfortunately what he doesn't have right now is a center back. And there are other ways to make an argument without using a swear word, just saying.

[Greatest Ripoff]

Until we see him play a dozen games as an attacking midfielder, his presence will be a complete waste. What the fuck is the manager thinking?

Sorry but Frings has never been and never will be an attacking mid fielder. Also, I feel he has been our best player since joining the team. Am i watching different games or just out to lunch?

[Canary Canuck]

On a good note, 10 man Tauro is holding Pumas scoreless through 72 minutes.

[Macksam]

This is a team that's getting better, versus a team that's already good.

- Scott

Yeah, anyone who says we are worse than last season is being overly pretentious. We improved quite a bit since last year. We just need to shore up the defense and we'll be good to go.

[Juanito]

It's our defense. Our atrocious defense affects the entire team - too many big mistakes leading to goals. Our attackers don't have the confidence to commit to the attack, because they don't trust our defenders to manage without them - particularly our central midfied.

And frankly, I don't blame them, because they SHOULDN'T trust our central defenders.

Winter clearly doesn't trust them either, or he wouldn't be using Frings, his expensive new DP midfielder, as a starting option back there.

Solve this, and I think any offensive issues resolve themselves. It would also explain why nearly every time we've shown an offensive player the door, they've gone on to have better results elsewhere. Too much time spent with guys worriedly looking backwards.

How Winter handles this major problem, probably in the off-season, is going to weigh heavily on my judgment of him. Ecks is the only keeper we've got in the back four, and even he hasn't been consistently good the past couple of months. Left back is a shambles, and hopefully Cann is good enough to occupy one of our starting CB spots, although even he wasn't looking great in his limited action this year.

- Scott

It's funny you should say this because usually, you build a team from the back out. I don't think we've ever had a really solid back line. Probably the year three was the best we had, and that was still pretty awful.

To me it seems Winter and gang concentrated all their efforts on offense, they forgot we were bleeding goals.

I hope to goodness that they go get themselves the best MLS CBs they can get in the offseason. We're done now. We're stuck with this gang. I guess the best we can do is enjoy the ride.

[69Chevy396]

Sorry but Frings has never been and never will be an attacking mid fielder. Also, I feel he has been our best player since joining the team. Am i watching different games or just out to lunch?

Excuse me for asking. Wasn't he signed to add offence? He is versatile and has a record of creating and scoring goals. Winter has other options for the back end. My point is if we are still losing with him playing defence wouldn't it be prudent to give the team a shot at winning by playing him where he would make the most of his abilities? Give the fans something to cheer about. I am sick of losing by never scoring. Next year Winter will go after Ronaldo and have him play right back.

[Greatest Ripoff]

Excuse me for asking. Wasn't he signed to add offence? He is versatile and has a record of creating and scoring goals. Winter has other options for the back end. My point is if we are still losing with him playing defence wouldn't it be prudent to give the team a shot at winning by playing him where he would make the most of his abilities? Give the fans something to cheer about. I am sick of losing by never scoring. Next year Winter will go after Ronaldo and have him play right back.

No he was not signed to play offence. He is defensive player. Ronaldo was an attacking player.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

He's being played there out of necessity clearly. Ill be gobsmacked if he's still played out of position next season when we've had time to sign better defenders

[69Chevy396]

No he was not signed to play offence. He is defensive player. Ronaldo was an attacking player.

He is capable of scoring and is a talented and versatile player. Any footballer who can play for so long for one of the world's greatest National teams, and score dozens of great goals in the process was not signed by the second worst team in third tier MLS to play central defender.

[DoubleUp]

First frings must Get fit!....Koevs aswell.........right now fat wastes of millions.

The boys and little men that resemble boys, must be placed on the bench and replaced with high mls calibre athletes.

The team is good but the competitive nature must raised.

[T-boy]

Yeah, anyone who says we are worse than last season is being overly pretentious. We improved quite a bit since last year. We just need to shore up the defense and we'll be good to go.

I can't say we are "worse than last season"...but I would sincerely say that we are absolutely no better.

I would say that the playing staff are possibly a little WORSE overall compared to last season. DeRo and Barrett were very good attackers (I was always a fan of Barrett, his work ethic was better than all our current players except Eckersley), Cann and Nana had a great partnership in defence. The players we have in those positions right now (Koevermans and Johnson, Iro and ????) are not as good as last season's counterparts.

I would, however say, that the tactics are "slightly better" than last seasons. Not that I like 4-3-3 or Winter's tactics AT ALL, but they are "better" than Preki's long ball boringness.

Winter's big mistake, in my opinion, was to totally overhall the squad. He didn't need to do that. The spine of last season's team was good (Frei, Cann, DeGuzman, Derosario, Barrett) and Winter SHOULD have signed a couple of wingers and full backs to compliment these players. I think players like Eckersley and Plata would have fitted in well with this original spine of players.

However, Winter decided to completely change the squad, has lost the best players in the original team, and hasn't replaced them with anything better. This was poor judgement by the new management regime.

Winter didn't need to "rebuild", he needed to take what he inherited, which DID have some good elements, and build on that.

[Yagbod]

Perhaps Winter expects to around more than 6-8 months. Even MLSE must know that the carousel of managers has to end. It is a long term plan folks. Most of us are not going to die tomorrow... relax.

[TFCREDNWHITE]

Another important thing people are forgetting, is that Dallas is a really really good team. Dallas is fast, tight, compact, well coached and very hard to break down. If anybody thinks we came into this game as Favourites, then you are sadly mistaken....

This game is played with 11, this eleven must fight for each other, they should constantly be moving. Yet some of the guys are not skilled enough or fit enough....but this game can also be played and won by using your head and your heart! When all 11 players fight for each other as they would if they were going into battle, you would see different results....

[cincy]

Tauro drew with Pumas last night .. best result for us.

[69Chevy396]

Perhaps Winter expects to around more than 6-8 months. Even MLSE must know that the carousel of managers has to end. It is a long term plan folks. Most of us are not going to die tomorrow... relax.

Long term plan? I agree in principal, but frankly this argument merely illustrates just how incompetent MLSE and Winter are at this. If a long term plan were in place as the principal strategy, then how do u explain or rationalize the departure of young players such as Cronin, Attakora, Tchani, coupled with the moves to obtain older players such as Frings? Why did the team not work harder to retain the number one draw at the gates who led all players in scoring and provided a level of interest and excitement that we have seldom witnessed here? If they were bulding for the future, why did Gordon come here, and then get traded? Compared with other expansion clubs TFC has been a disaster. Don't view what may come, but what has occurred. That is the factual history of this team: mediocrity incarnate.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Nana was not working here.
Gordon was hurt too much.

Keeping those two is not looking to the future.

Cronin got us Frings and you're complaining.

Tchani was the future and was dealt for obvious needs at the back that ARE NOT being met by an older player that had not a lot of play before getting here.

[69Chevy396]

Nana was not working here.
Gordon was hurt too much.

Keeping those two is not looking to the future.

Nana was referred to as an untouchable by the media, by management, by many of the RPB posters here, and was along with Cann considered our future. That, was less than a year ago. Long term plans are long term. Saying that he was not working here is based on a couple of months, early in the season, while he was injured and learning a new system. A proponent of long term thinking would agree that dumping him so soon, was a short term brain fart. Long term plans need long term assessment periods. Gordon was hurt too much. Gordon scored when healthy. He gets injured. the solution; trade him. Shit, it must be time to trade koevermans now, he has missed a few games due to injury, and that must make a huge dent in the long term plan

[Fort York Redcoat]

So who do you give more time? The player or the coach?

[Shakes McQueen]

Long term plan? I agree in principal, but frankly this argument merely illustrates just how incompetent MLSE and Winter are at this. If a long term plan were in place as the principal strategy, then how do u explain or rationalize the departure of young players such as Cronin, Attakora, Tchani, coupled with the moves to obtain older players such as Frings? Why did the team not work harder to retain the number one draw at the gates who led all players in scoring and provided a level of interest and excitement that we have seldom witnessed here? If they were bulding for the future, why did Gordon come here, and then get traded? Compared with other expansion clubs TFC has been a disaster. Don't view what may come, but what has occurred. That is the factual history of this team: mediocrity incarnate.

Building a team in MLS, is not primarily accomplished through kids. This isn't the NHL or NFL, where the draft is still the best way to build a team. We have a world of footballers available to us, of all ages. As such, bringing in veteran players isn't such a big deal, because they aren't irreplacable.

Building a proper team isn't a straight line up - Winter is going to, and has made, mistakes along the way. Some acquisitions won't work out, and some will.

And Gordon got traded, because he was made of glass. He was a useful player when he played. I will also challenge your assertion that Dero was a major "draw" for the club. Attendance had continued to wane under DeRo, because winning is ultimately what brings people to the stadium.

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

Gordon was hurt too much. Gordon scored when healthy. He gets injured. the solution; trade him. Shit, it must be time to trade koevermans now, he has missed a few games due to injury, and that must make a huge dent in the long term plan

Don't be pedantic. Gordon was injured all the time in his stint here.

- Scott

[Greatest Ripoff]

Nana was referred to as an untouchable by the media, by management, by many of the RPB posters here, and was along with Cann considered our future. That, was less than a year ago. Long term plans are long term. Saying that he was not working here is based on a couple of months, early in the season, while he was injured and learning a new system. A proponent of long term thinking would agree that dumping him so soon, was a short term brain fart. Long term plans need long term assessment periods. Gordon was hurt too much. Gordon scored when healthy. He gets injured. the solution; trade him. Shit, it must be time to trade koevermans now, he has missed a few games due to injury, and that must make a huge dent in the long term plan

And have you seen Attakora's plays since being dealt to San Jose? It's been pretty poor. The supporters in San Jose are more upset about getting him then you are about losing him. And Gordon? He's been injured since he was traded.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Johnson is younger than Gordon = long term plan.

I kid. Younger is not always better.

[69Chevy396]

Don't be pedantic. Gordon was injured all the time in his stint here.

- Scott

The Gordon issue reflects Winter's lack of savy and knowledge of MLS. Gordon, when healthy played brilliantly at times. He took a bad injury, was learning a new system, but still managed to perform up to expectations when healthy. We held onto Barrett for a longer period of time, that guy was full of beans but had little goal scoring prowess. Gordon should have been given more time. Had Winter been here in 2007 he would have traded Dichio by July of that season. Now that Koevermans is brought here, with the same anticipation of goals that were virtually a sure thing with Dero, he too is injury prone. Do we trade him as soon as another has been aged soccer star becomes available? This is not long term planning. If it were, TFC would be at the top of the league, and not the bottom

[69Chevy396]

And have you seen Attakora's plays since being dealt to San Jose? It's been pretty poor. The supporters in San Jose are more upset about getting him then you are about losing him. And Gordon? He's been injured since he was traded.

Long term planning cannot be measured by short term factors. Attakora, in a few years, may be the player he was destined to be, no way of knowing that now. Besides. Did his injuries suddenly disappear, could he be playing hurt? Seems to me, whenever Winter or mlse makes a boneheaded move, apologies abound, but when you take a careful look at what he is doing, it is harder, and harder to find any sense to it all. Yes, Johnson is a good player. So was Tchanni. So was Cronin. Lambrocca. Build a team, wreck a team, build a team.....this is mlse legacy in Toronto. Getting close is nice (for the leaf apologists who believe that close every 10 years means something), but that is not what sports entertainment is about if your primary focus is on pleasing the fans, and not making money. Did any of the season ticket holders get an offer of free seats to an mls game because of the rain out? Serves them right getting 500 people. More attended the super dog show at CNE than took in free tickets to the game. That will unfortunately become another legacy here, if they don't quickly take a few lessons from the ownership in LA, Seattle, Philly etc.

Sorry all. I am a frustrated season ticket holder who is so pissed off at this club right now. I cannot even give my seats away. Like having a sliver in the eye. It could have been so much better than this.

[Shakes McQueen]

The Gordon issue reflects Winter's lack of savy and knowledge of MLS. Gordon, when healthy played brilliantly at times. He took a bad injury, was learning a new system, but still managed to perform up to expectations when healthy.

Yes, WHEN HEALTHY.

We held onto Barrett for a longer period of time, that guy was full of beans but had little goal scoring prowess.

Barrett was kept around because a) his contract was hard to move, and b) he had other appealing qualities, many of which were directly appealing to Preki's style of football.

Gordon should have been given more time. Had Winter been here in 2007 he would have traded Dichio by July of that season. Now that Koevermans is brought here, with the same anticipation of goals that were virtually a sure thing with Dero, he too is injury prone. Do we trade him as soon as another has been aged soccer star becomes available? This is not long term planning. If it were, TFC would be at the top of the league, and not the bottom

How have you determined that Koevermans is injury prone? And you're aware that Gordon is out again, this time for the season, right?

- Scott

[123 elite]

watching that game yesterday from a different viewpoint in the stadium was interesting. I thought the midfield was invisible. It was surprising how little room any TFC player had on the ball and the lack of supporting movement was depressing as was the number of times JDG lost the ball. Very little went through the middle especially in the first half. Only Kovic and Frings played decently. Frings was cool on the ball and never looked ruffled at any point. Stinson was woeful but to be fair had so few options when he had the ball. It was usually a ball up the wing and quickly lost. His crossing is abysmal. Plata is undisciplined. He runs like a seal flapping his flippers. Easy to play against because he always wants to get the ball on his right foot. The rest of them are not really worth commenting on. Lack of discipline, lack of inventiveess, lack of pace and the way they sauntered on to the park for the 2nd half you could see they were defeated.

T-boy has it right. We didnt need a lot of these players. I can see a lot of them gone next year and the whole rebuild will start again.

[v00d00daddy]

Nana was referred to as an untouchable by the media, by management, by many of the RPB posters here, and was along with Cann considered our future.

Sorry but management obviously didn't consider him untouchable if they moved him.

As for the media and RPB posters....well, I think I'll go with Winter's assessment of Nana over anybody in those two camps. You know, considering he knows a good player when he sees one.

BTW...watch an Earthquakes game and then come back and let me know if you miss him.

That, was less than a year ago. Long term plans are long term. Saying that he was not working here is based on a couple of months, early in the season, while he was injured and learning a new system. A proponent of long term thinking would agree that dumping him so soon, was a short term brain fart. Long term plans need long term assessment periods. Gordon was hurt too much. Gordon scored when healthy. He gets injured. the solution; trade him. Shit, it must be time to trade koevermans now, he has missed a few games due to injury, and that must make a huge dent in the long term plan

Are you even listening to yourself?

Don't you think that Winter is part of the "long term plan"?

So logically you'd think that your assessment period might be a bit longer than what you've seen so far?

Again...you're one of these people that looks at the last 5 years as some kind of barometer of what is going to happen in the future. Nothing is going to change in your eyes.

You can't see TFC ever being good on the path that they're heading down. The only problem is....once they are good (and I think they're on their way) you'll look at the table and say "see...they're at the top of the Eastern Conference...that's why I call progress".

Unfortunately by then you'll have missed the actual progress. You know...the thing that's happening before your very eyes as we speak.

[v00d00daddy]

How have you determined that Koevermans is injury prone? And you're aware that Gordon is out again, this time for the season, right?

- Scott

Hmm..interesting to hear.

I left the game on Wednesday when they first cleared the players off the field. While I was walking out I'm pretty sure I saw Gordon walking towards Gate 3 with some other guy.

Not sure why he'd have been in town though. Who knows?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I doubt and disagree whole heartedly we will see the majority of these players gone next year. Fringe players like Martina and SOolsma, yes (as well as our backline) but id bet our starting 11 right now, IF it differs will only have 1 or two new comers.
This is easily one of the more frustrating threads this forum has seen in recent weeks. People need to realise, whether their expert soccer minds grasp it or not, that

a) we have made great strides since last year, our passing and positioning is better than it has ever been before, this is partially because of our FO and partially because they finally got to bring the players they wanted in HALF WAY THROUGH THE SEASON

b) Dallas is one of the best teams in the league, like top 3 best

c) we played quite well and just couldnt finish, we didnt lose 5 nil like we have with our 'best players' that we had previously and have since traded off, some not making the cut, some being surplus to our needs (see Tchani where we have Dunfield, Stinson, Frings and De Guzman)

d) as of right now we've got 6 more games before we are out of this tournament, we could have won this game and it would have been beneficial but we are not out yet

Im off for a bit, enjoy your winge-fest.