View Poll Results: Do you approve of the job Winter is doing as head coach of TFC?

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  • Yes

    131 83.44%
  • No

    26 16.56%
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  1. #1
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    Default Winter Approval Rating - July 2011

    Alright, first things first, we're currently sitting 8th in the east and 15th overall, two places down in the conference and one overall. out of the teams below us in the standings, chicago has 4 games in hand and vancity has 2. now, it's been a busy month, so lets get to it.. how do you think winter has performed as coach?

    Just some guidelines:

    1. Its how you feel at the moment, not a final assessment. Like a marathon, this is just a snapshot of our support at this point in time. A low approval rating does not rate him as an overall failure, just like a high approval rating does not mean he's Sir Alex Ferguson.
    2. Whatever factors or metrics your feel are most important to you in the coaching position, use those to guide you.

    For the sake of context, this is how he / TFC have preformed in July:


    W/L/L/L/L/W/T: 1 point out of a possible 15

    *gold denotes NCC game *red denotes CCL game


    Toronto FC v Whitecaps
    July 02: Win 2 - 1

    Red Bulls v Toronto FC
    July 06: Loss 5 - 0

    Dynamo v Toronto FC
    July 09: Loss 2 - 0

    Toronto FC v FC Dallas
    July 20: Loss 0 - 1

    Sporting KC v Toronto FC
    July 23: Loss 4 - 2

    Toronto FC v Real Esteli F.C.
    July 27: Win 2 - 1

    Timbers v Toronto FC
    July 30: Tie 2 - 2


    JUNE THREAD --> http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/sh...ad.php?t=28658
    MAY THREAD --> http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=28251
    APRIL THREAD --> http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/sh...ad.php?t=27878





    ALSO: i was thinking of switching it up next month. making it a grading system
    with a certain criteria instead of a simple yes or no. whats everyone think?


  2. #2
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    I'll give him a marginal pass for now. I'm still unconvinced by his ability as a head coach, but I like what I see on the Technical Director side.

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    I feel better now than I have for a while. Koeverman is starting to activate. Frings is doing what he's been hired to do. The attempt to focus on an attacking game now seems doable. Problem is we are going to continue to get burned by the counterattack.

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    I voted yes and I continue to remain with the same mindset as the last time we did this poll a month or so ago.

    I wanted to see who he brought in and who he got rid of at the mid season trade deadline. So far I have been happy, not ecstatic, but happy. If he could bring in a proper CB - then I will be ecstatic.

    Plata, Eckersley, Frings, Koevermans, Johnson, Dunfield is a very good foundation to build with for the next 1-2 years.

    Jury is still out on Merosevic, Iro, Griffit, Robinson, Viator, Yourassowski, Zavarise, Williams.

    Borman, Martina, Bouchiba, have been a bust

    Again - he has until May of 2012 to show me what he is doing is worth all the misery. By that time, I expect TFC to be dangerous on the pitch.

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    I definitely approve of the majority of recent player acquisitions, which is a testament to Paul Mariner as well as Aron Winter. As a coach, Winter has to earn an approval rating from this point forward, based on the depth of talent on the current roster.

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    I voted no. Kind of wish there was some middle ground though.

    It is interesting that this poll seems to come up after a positive result. The month leading up to the tie with Portland was rather dour, in terms of results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by menefreghista View Post
    I voted no. Kind of wish there was some middle ground though.

    It is interesting that this poll seems to come up after a positive result. The month leading up to the tie with Portland was rather dour, in terms of results.
    I feel the same. It's like he can have the worst month ever but seems to pull out a good result at the end of the month to make everyone feel good and affect the poll.

    To me, his coaching abilities are still suspect and they're being masked by the arrival of the very high quality DPs. It doesn't make him a better coach. The better players are doing his job for him.

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    Still early days IMO and still a lot of Mo players taking up cap space.

    Based on the more recent games, Winters tactics have been decent. He has more options now and he's used them well. He looks more confident in the current set of players because we've seen a lot more build up from the back instead of reverting to long ball when things went balls up.

    Most of the new players he's acquired have been a hit instead of a miss. I like the acquisition of Johnson and the fact that he's already done more than the guys back in San Jose combined.

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    Tonight will go a long way....

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    Quote Originally Posted by PopePouri View Post
    still a lot of Mo players taking up cap space.
    I don't think we can say this anymore.

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    I've supported Winter since he came in. I really think his vision is the way to go, and like the steps he's taking with the academy, etc. That said...

    We can't say there's been a turnaround quite yet. Football really is a game of form. We need to see a string of 5-6 matches with results to really say we've turned a corner. We're on a win and a draw right now. Another win tonight would be great.

    For me to say there is a real direction toward being a solid team, I want to see a doubling of points in our last 11 games. We drew the last game, so that's 17 points we need out of 10 games remaining to get there. That's a big task but doable if we really are on the way to being a top tier team.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    I feel the same. It's like he can have the worst month ever but seems to pull out a good result at the end of the month to make everyone feel good and affect the poll.

    To me, his coaching abilities are still suspect and they're being masked by the arrival of the very high quality DPs. It doesn't make him a better coach. The better players are doing his job for him.

    Does the arrival of the new players mask his coaching abilities any more than the inheriting a roster (and FO) masked his coaching abilities?

    Getting the most out of the best players is a big part of a coaches job. We've certainly seen here (and lots of other places) good players not producing.

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    does anyone know how long the contracts are for our new DP's or if there are any opt-out clauses etc?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    Does the arrival of the new players mask his coaching abilities any more than the inheriting a roster (and FO) masked his coaching abilities?

    Getting the most out of the best players is a big part of a coaches job. We've certainly seen here (and lots of other places) good players not producing.
    Agreed. If he deserves criticism for the dismal performances of the club that he inherited, he most certainly deserves praise if the team he has assembled begins to achieve a modicum of success on the pitch.

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    I wish there was a "neutral" option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by menefreghista View Post
    I don't think we can say this anymore.
    A good 500K at least. JDG taking up most of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PopePouri View Post
    A good 500K at least. JDG taking up most of it.
    There's been enough turnover now that we can't still blame Mo Johnston.

    This is Winter/Mariner's creation. No more excuses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post

    To me, his coaching abilities are still suspect and they're being masked by the arrival of the very high quality DPs. It doesn't make him a better coach. The better players are doing his job for him.
    I don't think you can separate the quality of the players from the coaching ability.

    Usually coaches who inherit crappy teams make lots of changes, to find better players and players who will play their system. See, for example, Sigi in Columbus, Arena in LA, Kreis in Salt Lake. All three made major changes pretty quickly after taking over. Their reputation as good coaches comes along with getting better players or getting players to fit their system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    Does the arrival of the new players mask his coaching abilities any more than the inheriting a roster (and FO) masked his coaching abilities?

    Getting the most out of the best players is a big part of a coaches job. We've certainly seen here (and lots of other places) good players not producing.
    Quote Originally Posted by ManUtd4ever View Post
    Agreed. If he deserves criticism for the dismal performances of the club that he inherited, he most certainly deserves praise if the team he has assembled begins to achieve a modicum of success on the pitch.

    That's where I continue to disagree with this board. Considering the rosters he has put out in every game are mostly players he has brought in, I don't see how one can argue that he "inherited" these players unless we're complaining about guys like Frei?

    I think it comes back to defining what a "good coach" is and perhaps all of us have difference definitions for that classification.

    For me, one of those characteristics is a coach that gets the best out of his players, good or bad. If he has a below-average roster and achieves average results then that is an indication of a good coach. Much like a poor coach would be one that has an above average roster that achieves average results. There is no doubt Winter had an average roster (perhaps even below-average) in the first-half of the season but he did not achieve below-average results, he achieved shockingly awful results and to me that is telling.

    I think with the changes made, this roster should be a playoff calibre team, but will Winter get the most out of them or will we muddle through our season? That is my fear. What benefit is it to have a $5million payroll if we will not be able to beat teams with half the talent/payroll?

    Time will tell of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Auzzy View Post
    I wish there was a "neutral" option.
    That would be the easy way out

    There's gotta be some factors you see as positive and some as negative, and I doubt they can be weighted evenly.

    I voted yes because I still think he is doing more good for the team than harm up until this point in his tenure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by menefreghista View Post
    There's been enough turnover now that we can't still blame Mo Johnston.

    This is Winter/Mariner's creation. No more excuses.

    My fear is that so long as there is at least one single player from the Mo era, Winter will continue to be excused for having to "inherit" players. I am tired of pointing out how illogical that is.

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    Voted No, not because I want him sacked but because over the whole of July the negative still outweighs the positive although I saw signs of improvement against Portland and Real Esteli.
    I would definitely like a graduated approval rating next time, Yes and No leads to a skewed result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    I think with the changes made, this roster should be a playoff calibre team, but will Winter get the most out of them or will we muddle through our season? That is my fear. What benefit is it to have a $5million payroll if we will not be able to beat teams with half the talent/payroll?

    Time will tell of course.
    It will be interesting to see how this new team does on Saturday against DC and the following Saturday at home against RSL. By then the new players will have had almost a month to get acclimated.

    Right now TFC's only recent positive results have occurred against MLS expansion teams or Real Estelli (who are awful).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    My fear is that so long as there is at least one single player from the Mo era, Winter will continue to be excused for having to "inherit" players. I am tired of pointing out how illogical that is.
    not really, the Winter era didn't start until the recent trades, which is a L-L-T in MLS and W in CCL prelim.
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    Ah, same old same old eh?

    As for whether Winter is a good coach, let's ask Richard Eckersley:

    Eckersley believes he has thrived under coach Winter’s tutelage.

    “With every player on the team, and this is why he’s so good, he tells everybody to not be afraid to express themselves on the field, even in practice. He also teaches and encourages you at the same time, and that’s why I enjoy playing for him,” Eckersley said.



    Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/stor...#ixzz1TswXN9n1

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    I don't think you can separate the quality of the players from the coaching ability.

    Usually coaches who inherit crappy teams make lots of changes, to find better players and players who will play their system. See, for example, Sigi in Columbus, Arena in LA, Kreis in Salt Lake. All three made major changes pretty quickly after taking over. Their reputation as good coaches comes along with getting better players or getting players to fit their system.
    Yes Kreis, Schmid and Arena all got rid of players they didn't want and brought in ones they did but during their first seasons Schmid and Kreis had significantly better records even with their "unwanted" players than Winter has so far. I've checked the stats for thos etwo although not for Arena at LA.

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    My fear is that Winter didn't stand a chance from the outset with the regular jaded, armchair managers on this board.

    I'll reserve my judgement of his work for next season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pekduck View Post
    not really, the Winter era didn't start until the recent trades, which is a L-L-T in MLS and W in CCL prelim.

    Then what did we just go through? Is the first 2/3 of the season worthless for evaluating Winter as a coach?

    We might as well have trotted out our reserves or academy kids for 20 games.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza View Post
    My fear is that Winter didn't stand a chance from the outset with the regular jaded, armchair managers on this board.

    I'll reserve my judgement of his work for next season.
    definitely according to the 'board', which is fine, good thing he's managing the real team in real life
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    If he has a below-average roster and achieves average results then that is an indication of a good coach. Much like a poor coach would be one that has an above average roster that achieves average results.
    This makes sense in theory, but I can't imagine any way of measuring this.

    What is a "below average roster" other than a team that has bad results? And if a team has bad results, is that because of the bad roster or the coach who can't lift his team up to average results?

    Looking at this another way..... Bruce Arena performed poorly in NY. Nicol has performed poorly in NE lately. Why is that? What does it tell us about their coaching ability?

 

 

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