View Poll Results: Who'd win? 2007 Expansion Team v The 2011 Winter Team

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  • TFC: The 2007 Expansion Team

    54 33.13%
  • TFC: The 2011 Winter Team

    109 66.87%
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  1. #31
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    Our squad prior to the DPs coming in was very poor. It's hard to say what they will be like once there is game-fitness and the team melds. I think they probably currently are better than our 2007 side.

    Our 2007 team was terrible, just terrible. However, the league was much easier at that time, and there were a lot of bad teams, so it wasn't as obvious, even with the long goal-less streak.

    Our 2009 team was the best ever, at least as far as their record. They really should have made the playoffs.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

  2. #32
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    2007 Team...they had Heart.

  3. #33
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    Either way, Tfc would win. So that's a rare bonus!

  4. #34
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    Shakes and others make a good point about the overall level of quality here in MLS being higher than previous seasons, but I don't think a good argument can be made that we have been elevated all that much along with the rest of the league. This isn't heart or nostalgia talking, this is what the data suggests.

    Again, let's not look so much at our wins and loses, but goals scored for and against and the larger picture of our offence and defence. Our goal differential in 2007 was -24 at the end of the the season and we are currently -22 with 11 games left to play.

    In 2007 we lost 4 games by a margin of 3 goals or more, and currently things are the same (4 games lost by 3+ goals). Our worst defeat in 2007 was a loss of 4-0 to New England while this year we've been beaten by 5 goals to none against New York.

    Our best victory in 2007 was a 4-0 win over Dallas, while the game against the Timbers this year was the only time we won by a margin of more than a single goal 2-0 against Portland. That means our best game so far in 2011 was a 2-0 win at home against an expansion side playing their second MLS match.

    Sure, a great argument can be made that MLS as a league is much stronger now than it was in 2007, but I don't think Toronto is. Furthermore, while our level of talent may have marginally increased, few would argue that the club played more cohesively in 2007. This year we may have a few more players with a higher level of skill. but J. summed it up really well - we have more individual talent, but the squad plays poorly.
    Last edited by Cashcleaner; 07-25-2011 at 08:34 AM.
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shakes McQueen View Post
    Yep, this was part of my calculation. The league has improved vastly since TFC entered the league. 2007 TFC couldn't score against other 2007 MLS teams for hundreds and hundreds of minutes at a time.

    And I suspect anyone talking about magic or heart in the 2007 team is thinking more with their own heart than their brain.

    - Scott
    Bang on.

    Looking at statistics from 2007 just clouds the fact that we were horrible then. Didn't they go something like 10 games without a goal?

  6. #36
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    Am I the only one who things it's pretty sad that no one on this team needs to make the choice between playing for the 2007 and 2011 sides since we haven't managed to keep anyone that long?

    edit: also my choice is for 2011, although if we're taking midseason 2007 I think it should be 2011 in a couple of games.

  7. #37
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    Oh, and one more thing...

    What was the Number-1-universally-agreed-upon-super-consensus as to why we did rack up a number of losses back in 2007?

    Anyone?

    Bueller?

    The answer is INJURIES.

    Remember, injuries plagued us in 2007. Who knows, but it's likely that a healthier squad back then would have picked up a few more wins or converted some losses to draws.

    And I bet some are thinking in the back of their minds that a few injuries this year might actually increase our fortunes...
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

  8. #38
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    Losing Ronnie O' and DD removed most of our firepower.

    Injuries also are a big factor this year. Where is Paul Winsper when you need him?
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashcleaner View Post
    Shakes and others make a good point about the overall level of quality here in MLS being higher than previous seasons, but I don't think a good argument can be made that we have been elevated all that much along with the rest of the league. This isn't heart or nostalgia talking, this is what the data suggests.

    Again, let's not look so much at our wins and loses, but goals scored for and against and the larger picture of our offence and defence. Our goal differential in 2007 was -24 at the end of the the season and we are currently -22 with 11 games left to play.

    In 2007 we lost 4 games by a margin of 3 goals or more, and currently things are the same (4 games lost by 3+ goals). Our worst defeat in 2007 was a loss of 4-0 to New England while this year we've been beaten by 5 goals to none against New York.

    Our best victory in 2007 was a 4-0 win over Dallas, while the game against the Timbers this year was the only time we won by a margin of more than a single goal 2-0 against Portland. That means our best game so far in 2011 was a 2-0 win at home against an expansion side playing their second MLS match.

    Sure, a great argument can be made that MLS as a league is much stronger now than it was in 2007, but I don't think Toronto is. Furthermore, while our level of talent may have marginally increased, few would argue that the club played more cohesively in 2007. This year we may have a few more players with a higher level of skill. but J. summed it up really well - we have more individual talent, but the squad plays poorly.
    I don't think you understand what Shakes is saying. Data doesn't mean anything if the rest of the league is miles better. Seattle wasn't in the league. Either was Philly. The top teams from 2007 aren't even close to the top clubs now. NY of 2011 would take NE of 2007 to the woodshed.

    All the stats comparing our goal differential would be akin to putting West Ham United's -27 goal differential from 2010-11 Premier League Season up against their GD in the upcoming 2011-12 English Championship.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gazza_55 View Post
    I don't think you understand what Shakes is saying. Data doesn't mean anything if the rest of the league is miles better. Seattle wasn't in the league. Either was Philly. The top teams from 2007 aren't even close to the top clubs now. NY of 2011 would take NE of 2007 to the woodshed.

    All the stats comparing our goal differential would be akin to putting West Ham United's -27 goal differential from 2010-11 Premier League Season up against their GD in the upcoming 2011-12 English Championship.
    ^ You're right in that it's not a precise science and you couldn't just arbitrarily take the stats from now and then and come up with a definite conclusion, but I think they do play some part in the argument, even if the field has shifted. Again, as myself and others noted, TFC in 2007 played more cohesively. In 2011, not so much. We also had a more positive and winning attitude back then. Now club morale is fairly low - possibly the worst ever.

    I didn't want to to give the impression that numbers mean everything, because as you pointed out - it's a lot more complicated than that, but there are several intangible issues at play here as well. They just influenced my decision the most, but you make a good point to suggest that they shouldn't.
    Last edited by Cashcleaner; 07-25-2011 at 09:20 AM.
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben - D.O.W. View Post
    Am I the only one who things it's pretty sad that no one on this team needs to make the choice between playing for the 2007 and 2011 sides since we haven't managed to keep anyone that long?

    edit: also my choice is for 2011, although if we're taking midseason 2007 I think it should be 2011 in a couple of games.
    5 years is a long time, so not for me. The only thing I'm sad about is that we are at a point 5 years in where this topic even merits discussion.

  12. #42
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    If our current roster was healthy, TFC 2011 would squash TFC 2007 like a grapefruit.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cashcleaner View Post
    Shakes and others make a good point about the overall level of quality here in MLS being higher than previous seasons, but I don't think a good argument can be made that we have been elevated all that much along with the rest of the league. This isn't heart or nostalgia talking, this is what the data suggests.

    Again, let's not look so much at our wins and loses, but goals scored for and against and the larger picture of our offence and defence. Our goal differential in 2007 was -24 at the end of the the season and we are currently -22 with 11 games left to play.

    In 2007 we lost 4 games by a margin of 3 goals or more, and currently things are the same (4 games lost by 3+ goals). Our worst defeat in 2007 was a loss of 4-0 to New England while this year we've been beaten by 5 goals to none against New York.

    Our best victory in 2007 was a 4-0 win over Dallas, while the game against the Timbers this year was the only time we won by a margin of more than a single goal 2-0 against Portland. That means our best game so far in 2011 was a 2-0 win at home against an expansion side playing their second MLS match.

    Sure, a great argument can be made that MLS as a league is much stronger now than it was in 2007, but I don't think Toronto is. Furthermore, while our level of talent may have marginally increased, few would argue that the club played more cohesively in 2007. This year we may have a few more players with a higher level of skill. but J. summed it up really well - we have more individual talent, but the squad plays poorly.
    Hard to argue this.

  14. #44
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    So was Mo a better coach than Winter?


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    ^ I straight-up absolutely refuse to answer that question.
    Did the USA , of all countries, just fix soccer? - C. Ronaldo, May 27th commenting on the FBI-led investigations into fraud and corruption throughout FIFA.

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoop View Post
    So was Mo a better coach than Winter?

    Funny that question. I think until the players eventually lost trust in him (over his shady dealings) but until that happened, Mo was definitely a better motivator than Winter. We also had a leader in Danny Dichio. 2011's team lacked a leader until Frings showed up.

  17. #47
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    You could probably argue that if Mo was the coach and someone else was the GM, Mo might have still been around.

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoop View Post
    You could probably argue that if Mo was the coach and someone else was the GM, Mo might have still been around.

    It was pretty clear at the end of the first season (when the assistants went back to the US) that the team needed a better (or bigger) FO but it limped along without making any significant investment in management.

  19. #49
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    ^ I am not sure if Mo was a better coach, but I do think that when we played with Dichio helthy, we played a simpler game, through him which kept us better orgnized going forward and keeping shape, which made us more solidly defensively.

    But when Dichio was not on, (helped by O'Briean, Edu, Robbo, and Brennan was solid that year) we were shit, total shit.

    This is a better team, I think we even play better, but the 2007 team in mid-season form with the starters healthy could grind out points, and get goals in games. Again Dichio was the big factor.

    Having said all of that I need to see a couple of more games with the current roster to realy judge.

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by ManUtd4ever View Post
    If our current roster was healthy, TFC 2011 would squash TFC 2007 like a grapefruit.
    While I don't disagree with a lot of what's being discussed here, from both sides, I do find one thing amusing.

    The terms "crush" and "squash" are being thrown around by some. The fact is, there is no evidence to suggest that this current squad has the ability to inflict a beating on anyone…past or present…simply because we can't keep the ball out of our net.

    One thing I do believe is I'd take the 2007 TFC back line over the current mess we have. I think we have the best young goalkeeper in the league, yet the 2011 edition will give up, significantly more goals than a revolving door of sub par netminders from our inaugural season.

    The improvement of the MLS doesn't change the fact that the defense we throw out every week is the poorest this franchise has ever had.
    “We changed the entire league’s opinion of the viability of soccer in North America. And then we blew it because we chickened out." —Tim Leiweke

  21. #51
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    ^ This has been my biggest complaint since day one, and yet in year four we are still shit.

  22. #52
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    2011 easily.

  23. #53
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    2007 mid-season vs. the mess we have right now? 2007. By the end of the season depending on how the new signings gel with the rest of the team, I'd hope 2011 takes it.

  24. #54
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    For those of you comparing mid season TFC of 2007 to today's TFC:

    Starting July 15th, 2007 TFC went scoreless until Sept 22nd.

    They didnt win again until October!

    Not that stats mean much but I think the current anger with the team is causing people to forget how terrible we were.

  25. #55
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    ^ Correct me if I am wrong was that not the period in which Dichio and others were injured??

    Do not get me wrong I think that the current roster is better on paper and is better technicaly as a whole. I just think that squad with all its components was more ready to compete.

  26. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by v00d00daddy View Post
    For those of you comparing mid season TFC of 2007 to today's TFC:

    Starting July 15th, 2007 TFC went scoreless until Sept 22nd.

    They didnt win again until October!

    Not that stats mean much but I think the current anger with the team is causing people to forget how terrible we were.
    You could argue this stretch is just as bad with 1 win in 14 matches.

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by trane View Post
    ^ Correct me if I am wrong was that not the period in which Dichio and others were injured??

    Do not get me wrong I think that the current roster is better on paper and is better technicaly as a whole. I just think that squad with all its components was more ready to compete.
    Yeah...Probably was when their were injuries.

    There are injuries today too.

    Not to say that the back four would be good but wouldn't
    ----Eck-------Cann-----Williams-----youras-------
    Look better than what we have now?

    Injuries happen.

    I think the 2007 version of TFC would get mangled in 2011 worse than we are now.

  28. #58
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    i tell ya... one thing the 2007 team had was heart. as little skill as they might have had collectively, they always left everything on the pitch. remember brennan's broken arm, ribs etc? they gave it their all.

    today... there is no doubt in my mind that we are playing a better "system" more attractive football when it comes to build up etc. but what appears to me to be a lack of heart drives me a little crazy.

    i'm not sure if it's the canadian content? or the simple fact that the players we have to fill the roles we require just aren't heart type guys but there is a difference.

    and there are a few players on this current team that have heart - starting with frei. but not like a collective that it once was.

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoop View Post
    You could argue this stretch is just as bad with 1 win in 14 matches.
    You could but that's not what we're talking about.

    Would 1 win in 14 TFC of 2011 beat no goals in 10 game TFC of 2007?

    Who the hell knows but I think 2011 is way better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T.O TILL I DIE View Post
    i miss the 07 team such great memories, and every TFC fan who supported toronto since day 1 knows what i mean by those great memories.
    Totally Agree

 

 

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