Gordon dishes on TFC, Winter

[ManUtd4ever]

I have read several well articulated posts regarding the modus operandi of the current regime that are rational as well as objective.

It seems like the majority support the long term implications of the organizational infrastructure that Winter and Co. are trying to implement, and acknowledge that the recent roster acquistions were an attempt to achieve a modicum of success in the short term.

As for the grandiose statements declaring Winter and his current regime an abject failure, it's encouraging to note that the majority are taking those opinions with a grain of salt.

I concur with the majority, and I will observe the club's performance over the next several weeks before making any bold proclamations.

[ensco]

I agree with you that saying Winter has lost THIS room is foolish. But I am certain that Winter lost the "previous" room.

Jeez guys, for the 6 of you that went after me for this, this is obviously what I meant.

[ensco]

I concur with the majority, and I will observe the club's performance over the next several weeks before making any bold proclamations.

Three months ago the consensus was that Winter had until the end of 2012.

Three weeks ago the consensus was that Winter had until the end of 2011.

We're down to several weeks from now (OK that may not be what you are saying, but it's sort of the implication).

[Pookie]

^ Beach Red (or Beechy as he liked to be called... copyright Simpsons)

I'm not sold on the concept that they have changed gears but I'm not sure that they haven't either.

I have to go with the idea that Winter is sticking to a plan. The plan that was likely developed/advised by JK and the plan that he was hired to implement.

- the academy kids are learning it (system and technical)
- the first team is working on it
- players that couldn't grasp it have been moved out in favour of players they say can grasp it

The only real change in variables vs the start of the season seems to be the age of the players brought in. Our DPs are over 30. The others are all over 26.

It could be that the DPs are being used partly to assist with the technical and system learnings (which apparently wasn't going so well, according to Gordon) and partly to improve the competitiveness of the team now.

But they haven't parted with really young players like Plata, Henry, Cordon, etc which doesn't fit with the idea of "win now damn the future."

To be practical though. They have 2 1/2 years on a contract. Clearly, they need results before that contract expires. It would be unfair of us not to assume that isn't a factor.

[menefreghista]

Three months ago the consensus was that Winter had until the end of 2012.

Three weeks ago the consensus was that Winter had until the end of 2011.

We're down to several weeks from now (OK that may not be what you are saying, but it's sort of the implication).

The bar is always lowered though. Already some are acting like the season just started now. The first 21 games were a write off.

The next test for Winter is the Real Estelli matches. TFC should be able to beat a team that the Impact beat.

[Beach_Red]

I admit this. But "following the present course and hoping" is not logical either. I've completely lost faith that Winter will get it done.

I don't have a solution, other than cutting the amount of money I spend on TFC tickets, which I plan to do.

Wait and see on that. Are you sure we haven't changed course? Absentee bosses are always tough and maybe we're only now going to see Winter and Mariner making their own modifications to the "Klinsmann plan." sure, everyone wants to plan for the long-term, but Winter only has two and a half years leftt on his contrat and then he'll need another job. Having the worst record on MLS history on his resume won't help him if the long-term plan starts paying dividends in five years.

See how the rest of the year plays out, how Winter does with the handcuffs removed.

[ensco]

The next test for Winter is the Real Estelli matches. TFC should be able to beat a team that the Impact beat.

These two Esteli games are a minefield. I actually feel sorry for Winter on this. We're in training camp here. This setup, where the second leg is an Central America, is not great. I am certain the ref in the Arabe Unido game was crooked. We could easily go out, at which point I will look reasonable compared to what the majority will want to do to Winter.

It may will have been far better for Winter to go out in the thunderstorm in May, and just blame the rain and the former players.

[Oldtimer]

Three months ago the consensus was that Winter had until the end of 2012.

Three weeks ago the consensus was that Winter had until the end of 2011.

We're down to several weeks from now (OK that may not be what you are saying, but it's sort of the implication).

The next test for Winter is the Real Estelli matches. TFC should be able to beat a team that the Impact beat.

I'm sorry, ensco, but the bar has moved yet again. We're down to one match!

[menefreghista]

It may will have been far better for Winter to go out in the thunderstorm in May, and just blame the rain and the former players.

I wonder how bad the July 27 home game is selling? I wonder if they even want to try to sell 3 more games on top of that?

Although this team could use all the positive news it can get. That probably trumps all.

[ManUtd4ever]

I admit this. But "following the present course and hoping" is not logical either. I've completely lost faith that Winter will get it done.

I don't have a solution, other than cutting the amount of money I spend on TFC tickets, which I plan to do.

At this point in time, it's illogical to come to any conclusions one way or another.

I haven't read a single post declaring Winter as the savior of this franchise, yet you and a few others are already certain that his long term vision and short term plan are destined to fail. If 90 minutes of of football is all you require to evaluate the rebuilt roster, I envy your sense of intuitiveness.

I genuinely respect your opinion, but I don't understand the incessant need to convince everyone else that patience is not required, or the notion that it is irrational to have faith in a plan that hasn't even been given a fair chance to come to fruition.

Inevitably, you may be right, but can we observe the new roster for a few games first?

[menefreghista]

I'm sorry, ensco, but the bar has moved yet again. We're down to one match!

Technically two. But who's counting?

[Oldtimer]

These two Esteli games are a minefield. I actually feel sorry for Winter on this. We're in training camp here. This setup, where the second leg is an Central America, is not great. I am certain the ref in the Arabe Unido game was crooked. We could easily go out, at which point I will look reasonable compared to what the majority will want to do to Winter.

It may will have been far better for Winter to go out in the thunderstorm in May, and just blame the rain and the former players.

It's really difficult to win in CONCACAF. Hostile crowds, crooked or intimidated refs, the list goes on. No-one in UEFA has to deal with what we have to here.

[Toronto_Bhoy]

The funniest thing I've read in this thread is …"He (Gordon) said they do a lot of passing drills in practice"!!!

This team couldn't pass wind after eating at Burrito Brothers for a week!

As for Winter and being over his head, I don't know. But one thing I do know is there was little evidence he had the credentials to be a head coach at (even) this level, he was a Number 2 and then coached the Ajax Academy team. Hardly a resume that rocks the football world or evokes confidence or, as someone suggested earlier…faith.

[menefreghista]

If 90 minutes of of football is all you require to evaluate the rebuilt roster, I envy your sense of intuitiveness.

The things is its not just 90 minutes of evaluation. Its bases on watching around 25 matches.

I just want to know what are the signs of hope from all the believers. What do you see that gives you hope? Please explain.

[menefreghista]

As for Winter and being over his head, I don't know. But one thing I do know is there was little evidence he had the credentials to be a head coach at (even) this level, he was a Number 2 and then coached the Ajax Academy team. Hardly a resume that rocks the football world or evokes confidence or, as someone suggested earlier…faith.

I'm not trying to rip you, because I agree with your general point. But this is how misinformation keeps spreading on forums.

Winter was never the number 2 for the senior Ajax squad. He was the assistant to the top youth team (Ajax A1) and later the head coach of the second youth team (Ajax A2).

And just so it doesn't get lost again. He was unemployed for about 18 months before TFC hired him.

[PopePouri]

Would not the Ajax reserves and A2 resemble the quality found in MLS?

He was unemployed for about 18 months before TFC hired him.

I don't know why this is an issue. There could be a multitude of reasons besides incompetency why he didn't get employed instantly after that.

The fact is he was there for 4 years which is a significant amount of time. If he was piss-poor he would have been sacked much earlier.

[Oldtimer]

Technically two. But who's counting?

You're right, a whole 180 minutes!!!

But actually, Winter will be judged after the first match, people won't wait until the second. That's why I said one match.

[ManUtd4ever]

The things is its not just 90 minutes of evaluation. Its bases on watching around 25 matches.

I just want to know what are the signs of hope from all the believers. What do you see that gives you hope? Please explain.

I'm not convinced one way or another, I'm reserving judgement. The roster has been completely overhauled. Winter has acknowledged on several occasions that the reason this club has failed is because he lacked the quality to implement his tactical approach. Winter will now live or die by those words, but he deserves the rest of the season to be judged accordingly, does he not?

[menefreghista]

Would not the Ajax reserves and A2 resemble the quality found in MLS?

No. Its a totally different job.

One is developing talent, trying to get them into the first team. The other is trying to win games in a professional league.

[ensco]

See how the rest of the year plays out, how Winter does with the handcuffs removed.

I promise to keep an open mind. But here's the thing. The more I think about Nana, the angrier I get, and it's really affecting my personal relationship with the team.

Here's I guy who came here as a kid, earned a spot, played pretty well, was really part of the fabric. He is a good kid, respectful, well spoken, we all know that. Maybe not a superstar, we all know that was overblown, but that's what happens when the hometown kid makes good, you get excited.

When the team leaked that Nana had an attitude/"entitlement" problem, that sort of bothered me, because it didn't make sense. Nana made $17,000 a year or whatever for at least the first couple of years! If he thought he had a shot to move up, why slag him? Isn't that what Winter or Mariner would do (and did)?

Then when Nana got publicly criticized/insulted by Winter after the trade, that really bothered me. Who is Aron Winter to do this? Nana is on the alltime games played list for TFC, gave his heart and soul to us, and deserved thanks from TFC.

How many people stood up for the kid here? When did the supporters forum become the Amen Chorus for an unproven newcomer who is showing a remarkable ability to alienate people, and may or may not be here in a year? Because some idea about "patience" matters more than decency?

Just to remind you, Aron Winter is passing through. We are TFC.

The Gordon stuff is just confirmatory, but this is what really bothers me, and a few wins won't cure it.

[Beach_Red]

At this point in time, it's illogical to come to any conclusions one way or another.

I haven't read a single post declaring Winter as the savior of this franchise, yet you and a few others are already certain that his long term vision and short term plan are destined to fail. If 90 minutes of of football is all you require to evaluate the rebuilt roster, I envy your sense of intuitiveness.

I genuinely respect your opinion, but I don't understand the incessant need to convince everyone else that patience is not required, or the notion that it is irrational to have faith in a plan that hasn't even been given a fair chance to come to fruition.

Inevitably, you may be right, but can we observe the new roster for a few games first?

No, I don't think he was talking about the plan, long-term or short-term, he's talkng about Winter's ability to implement it.

One thing that hasn't come up in this discussion is any comment on Gordon saying he was injured but being put in gthe games anyway and Koeverman clearly not being ready to play and staying in for the whole game.

Beyond strategy and tactics there are some issues of player management here that are sometimes baffling.

[Oldtimer]

I promise to keep an open mind. But here's the thing. The more I think about Nana, the angrier I get, and it's really affecting my personal relationship with the team.

Nana was good friends with DeRo. Trading DeRo broke the relationship between him and the club. That's the real story.

I'm not sure the team "leaked" anything. People have opinions, and when they aren't well informed, they'll make things up. I never saw any attitude problem towards training, etc. Mind you, I'm not in the locker-room.

As far as a culture of entitlement (Winter's criticism), all the Canadian players seem to exhibit that.

[Whoop]

As I said, I'm more comfortable with hockey analogies and I apologize for that, but I just wanted to say, sure pros work on the basics AND a game plan.

But what this situation really reminds me of in the New Jersey Devils when Gretzky called them a Mickey Mouse organization. He was right and they set about changing their team. But they didn't try to play the Oilers fast-paced, high-skilled game because they knew they couldn't get the players for that. They got grinders, played the trap, built the defence and won a few Stanley Cups.

Only thing is that Gretzky made that comment in '83 and they didn't win the Cup until '95.

I would say getting a goaltender like Martin Brodeur certainly accelerated the process.

However, the dynamics of the game changed after the lock out.

Jacques Lemaire devised a system to cater to the strengths of his players. That system ended up being the trap. No coach really wants to implement the trap. Coaches would love free flowing play, but coaches also know they need results. At the time, the trap was the easiest way to get results based on the talent you had at your disposal. Once you had a whole pile of teams playing the trap, then the other coaches adapted in other to break the trap. The rule changes also helped.

So it goes back to the argument, is Winter capable of adapting? Is Winter capable of assessing talent?

So per chance, down the road, Winter has the players to play his system and he's getting results. But what happens when 2-3 guys are injured, does he stick with the 4-3-3 even though he doesn't have the guys on the bench to play it or does he adapt the formation to the strengths of his players?

It will be interesting to see what happens down this stretch.

[ensco]

Nana was good friends with DeRo. Trading DeRo broke the relationship between him and the club. That's the real story.

I'm not sure the team "leaked" anything. People have opinions, and when they aren't well informed, they'll make things up. I never saw any attitude problem towards training, etc. Mind you, I'm not in the locker-room.

Using the passive voice obscures the issue. Winter's job is to get the best from his players. That includes help player's get through it when their friends are traded.

My main point is that Winter continually, repeatedly acts disrespectfully to players in public.

[ManUtd4ever]

I promise to keep an open mind. But here's the thing. The more I think about Nana, the angrier I get, and it's really affecting my personal relationship with the team.

Here's I guy who came here as a kid, earned a spot, played pretty well, was really part of the fabric. He is a good kid, respectful, well spoken, we all know that. Maybe not a superstar, we all know that was overblown, but that's what happens when the hometown kid makes good, you get excited.

When the team leaked that Nana had an attitude/"entitlement" problem, that sort of bothered me, because it didn't make sense. Nana made $17,000 a year or whatever for at least the first couple of years! If he thought he had a shot to move up, why slag him? Isn't that what Winter or Mariner would do (and did)?

Then when Nana got publicly criticized/insulted by Winter after the trade, that really bothered me. Who is Aron Winter to do this? Nana is probably the alltime games played leader for TFC, gave his heart and soul to us, and deserved thanks from TFC.

How many people stood up for the kid here? When did the supporters chorus become the Amen Chorus for an unproven newcomer who is showing a remarkable ability to alienate people, and may or may not be here in a year?

Because some idea about "patience" matters more than decency?

The Gordon stuff is just confirmatory, but this is what really bothers me, and a few wins won't cure it.

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall Winter making derogatory comments about Nana after the trade. I recall him stating that Nana had asked for a trade following Cann's injury, but nothing inflammatory. In fact, I don't recall Winter saying anything derogatory about any of the players that have departed.

[Oldtimer]

One thing that hasn't come up in this discussion is any comment on Gordon saying he was injured but being put in gthe games anyway and Koeverman clearly not being ready to play and staying in for the whole game.

Beyond strategy and tactics there are some issues of player management here that are sometimes baffling.

It's not that baffling, it's called desperation. A 4-3-3 doesn't work without a target man, unless you're Barcelona. Even Argentina MNT can't do it.

[Oldtimer]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall Winter making derogatory comments about Nana after the trade. I recall him stating that Nana had asked for a trade following Cann's injury, but nothing inflammatory. In fact, I don't recall Winter saying anything derogatory about any of the players that have departed.

The only thing I recall is Winter making an oblique reference to a "culture of entitlement." He never said anything about Nana personally.

[ManUtd4ever]

No, I don't think he was talking about the plan, long-term or short-term, he's talkng about Winter's ability to implement it.

One thing that hasn't come up in this discussion is any comment on Gordon saying he was injured but being put in gthe games anyway and Koeverman clearly not being ready to play and staying in for the whole game.

Beyond strategy and tactics there are some issues of player management here that are sometimes baffling.

Well, that's what I meant. We need time to judge if he is capable of implementing his plan with the group of players that he has assembled.

[Beach_Red]

Nana was good friends with DeRo. Trading DeRo broke the relationship between him and the club. That's the real story.

I'm not sure the team "leaked" anything. People have opinions, and when they aren't well informed, they'll make things up. I never saw any attitude problem towards training, etc. Mind you, I'm not in the locker-room.

As far as a culture of entitlement (Winter's criticism), all the Canadian players seem to exhibit that.

Ensco makes a good point, though, in terms of coaching - or organization building - who is Aron Winter to make these comments? He's really got zero reputation.

The fact there's a domestic quota is foing to cloud the issue of negotiating with players, no doubt, but if this organization is going to put so much of its future
into the academy how it manages players with other options is going to be huge. Are they off to a good start?

[Beach_Red]

It's not that baffling, it's called desperation. A 4-3-3 doesn't work without a target man, unless you're Barcelona. Even Argentina MNT can't do it.

But we lost and there were no consequences. Why be desperate to try and win this particular game against a far better team that no one expected to win? Everyone would agree, that's just too short-term thinking