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  1. #61
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    It was obvious - and still is - which players on this team "get it" and which ones don't, and it all comes down to off-the-ball movement.

    In the last game, Maicon Santos had a Neymar-like moment where he stopped the ball and began flicking his left foot around. Typical Brazilian trickery, no doubt, but while everyone was gawking at Maicon, the problem became Borman and Sturgis, the two players immediately surrounding him. Both stood in place. Neither supported him. Neither player thought to themselves "What is the bigger picture at this exact moment?" and instead stood firmly in place, instead of moving into an open position for Maicon to send the ball off to.

    Linear thinking from MLS players has made the long-ball game easy, no doubt. When it's boot and shoot, there's not a lot of thinking involved, and yes, some teams do find success in this style of play. We've been unlucky to have not. However, the fundamentals of Winter's "system" is more logical than athletic.

    Players must always think two moves ahead. When you're in a 4-3-3, so much of the play depends on the players around you. There's such a small amount of movement in midfield that not being properly positioned is brutal to the holding players. The space between the fullback and the winger is often blocked by the left or right midfielder used by most MLS teams in the standard 4-4-2. This is where Brek Shea completely dominated.

    Players must be thinking on a more expansive level. The whole field must be their vision. Without the right movement into space, this system won't work. Imagine if Xavi and Iniesta stood around waiting instead of passing. Imagine if Dani Alves and Abidal never burst forward to receive the midfield pass again from Busquets. The ONLY player who is thinking this way thus far is Torsten Frings, a player who FINALLY slotted into the right position to allow the centerbacks to pass to the middle. Hopefully, with some time, he will not be alone.

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    Winter is a quality guy. I don't think either Frings or Koevermans would be here if he wasn't coaching this team.

    That ESPN article is pretty interesting.

  3. #63
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    i think this is just a matter of opinion. a buddy of mine did an interview with jonathan deguzman for the underground that wasn't published (so they can do a two page spread on DVD releases for the week even though you can fucking find those anywhere and the papers only put out twice a month and the reviews were already a week late) he stated, in passing, when asking about the MLS that a lot of the players weren't used to what winter was trying to do, which we've all heard before.

    then made a sliding remark right after that quoted him in saying that they weren't used to it "or just aren't willing to learn".

    i've posted several times that a lot of the players we have (had) are MLS mainstays. i refuse to believe that a coach cannot communicate his tactics to players, and winter has gone on record of saying that people couldn't hack it, and those people will be replaced.



    the jon deguz comment makes perfect sense in this context. winter brings in players that can fit (despite our backline issues) and as a result, a team with 5 new outfield players almost ecks out a tie against a team that's been on fucking fire as of late.

    what was anyone expecting gordon to say? "i was the only one who could hack it and that made me prime trade-bait?"

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by menefreghista View Post
    I actually wonder if there is a communication problem. How strong is Winter's English? I have a hard time believing the players are too stupid to learn his 'system'. Maybe not talented enough, but that's another story.

    How is it every other MLS team can find players to play and perform well in this league, except TFC?


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    Quote Originally Posted by __wowza View Post
    what was anyone expecting gordon to say? "i was the only one who could hack it and that made me prime trade-bait?"
    A lot of players usually just spout out platitudes about their previous teams.

    TFC seems to have an inordinate number for former players have bad things to say.

  6. #66
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    Sound like sour grapes to me...as has been mentioned, you don't last 6 years at Ajax because you're crap.....

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by menefreghista View Post
    A lot of players usually just spout out platitudes about their previous teams.

    TFC seems to have an inordinate number for former players have bad things to say.
    We have an inordinate number of former players.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Detroit_TFC View Post
    We have an inordinate number of former players.
    LOL. That's a good point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Detroit_TFC View Post
    We have an inordinate number of former players.
    ^THIS

    TFC Management are douchebags.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maninb View Post
    Sound like sour grapes to me...as has been mentioned, you don't last 6 years at Ajax because you're crap.....
    There are some pretty good coaches out there that flopped in MLS, a lot of which have way better qualifications than running a youth team at Ajax for 6 years.

    It doesn't mean they are bad coaches, it just means they couldn't figure out how to run a rinky-dink MLS squad, which is what we're asking Winter to do here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by __wowza View Post
    i think this is just a matter of opinion. a buddy of mine did an interview with jonathan deguzman for the underground that wasn't published (so they can do a two page spread on DVD releases for the week even though you can fucking find those anywhere and the papers only put out twice a month and the reviews were already a week late) he stated, in passing, when asking about the MLS that a lot of the players weren't used to what winter was trying to do, which we've all heard before.

    then made a sliding remark right after that quoted him in saying that they weren't used to it "or just aren't willing to learn".

    i've posted several times that a lot of the players we have (had) are MLS mainstays. i refuse to believe that a coach cannot communicate his tactics to players, and winter has gone on record of saying that people couldn't hack it, and those people will be replaced.


    the jon deguz comment makes perfect sense in this context. winter brings in players that can fit (despite our backline issues) and as a result, a team with 5 new outfield players almost ecks out a tie against a team that's been on fucking fire as of late.

    what was anyone expecting gordon to say? "i was the only one who could hack it and that made me prime trade-bait?"
    Bingo!! especially the last line.

    Also, Roogsy I never said Gordon was great or praised him for his goals, so i'm not sure where you got that from.

    I can guarantee that we have one of the best player management groups in the league (ie Winter, de Klerk, Mariner and training staff)

    I am not going to continue arguing it on here because of the main reason why I have stopped posting on here. 98% of the people on here think they know what they are talking about when they have actually no clue, either about the game in general or their "inside" knowledge of the team.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Detroit_TFC View Post
    We have an inordinate number of former players.
    And didn't most of them play under Mo? How could they not have something bad to say?

  13. #73
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    Cheers. Not a bad article and it was encouraging to read some of the comments -- there are some very knowledgeable MLS fans out there.

    Personally, I think it's more sour grapes on Gordon's part and hope that Winter sticks around long enough to see the Academy graduate a few genuine starters and see some of his grand plan fall into place. F*ck it. Let's see this through.

    Also, as Martina kinda points out, there are quality MLS teams succesfully playing possession football (Seattle, RSL) and not every team plays kick and run (NE, Chicago). Regardless of his possible/probable communication problems, Aron's focus on keeping it at your feet should be the coming trend for North American football and 4-3-3 might be the best way forward right now...plus what choice do we have other than Aron's way at least for the next couple of years? Please god not another management change.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
    Cheers. Not a bad article and it was encouraging to read some of the comments -- there are some very knowledgeable MLS fans out there.

    Personally, I think it's more sour grapes on Gordon's part and hope that Winter sticks around long enough to see the Academy graduate a few genuine starters and see some of his grand plan fall into place. F*ck it. Let's see this through.

    Also, as Martina kinda points out, there are quality MLS teams succesfully playing possession football (Seattle, RSL) and not every team plays kick and run (NE, Chicago). Regardless of his possible/probable communication problems, Aron's focus on keeping it at your feet should be the coming trend for North American football and 4-3-3 might be the best way forward right now...plus what choice do we have other than Aron's way at least for the next couple of years? Please god not another management change.
    Gordon doesn't strike me as the type of person that would do that.

    I think there are real issues with player and coach that he is highlighting here. Maybe Winter is rubbing players the wrong way and it could have a lot to do with his grasp of the English language.

    It's hard for people that have never had to speak another language fluently for a job or for every day life to understand but a lot can be lost in translation. Especially undertones with raised voices and pitches, people can be rubbed the wrong way if they percieve a slight against them when in reality the person is just expressing themselves as they grew up to do.

    I know from personal experience, Chileans, Mexicans, and Canadians deal with eachother very differently. (loud, abrassively, soft, understandingly, caringly)... they are all understood and interpreted differently.

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    it took the carolina morace almost 18 months to get her team to play her style competently

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan View Post

    Also, as Martina kinda points out, there are quality MLS teams succesfully playing possession football (Seattle, RSL) and not every team plays kick and run (NE, Chicago).
    I hate to say it, but in the CCL, RSL was actually beautiful to watch. Free-flowing football, great passing and movement both on and off the ball. It took one's breath away at times. You could see how a team like that could possibly play in the World Club Cup.

    And that from a team that once was unwatchable crap.
    MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by prizby View Post
    it took the carolina morace almost 18 months to get her team to play her style competently
    Competently would've been nice.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonso View Post
    Gordon doesn't strike me as the type of person that would do that.

    I think there are real issues with player and coach that he is highlighting here. Maybe Winter is rubbing players the wrong way and it could have a lot to do with his grasp of the English language.

    It's hard for people that have never had to speak another language fluently for a job or for every day life to understand but a lot can be lost in translation. Especially undertones with raised voices and pitches, people can be rubbed the wrong way if they percieve a slight against them when in reality the person is just expressing themselves as they grew up to do.

    I know from personal experience, Chileans, Mexicans, and Canadians deal with eachother very differently. (loud, abrassively, soft, understandingly, caringly)... they are all understood and interpreted differently.
    but frankly different languages are a common in football - from club teams to national teams with coaches and players - can't see that as a major issue these days

  19. #79
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    Not sure how Winter is behind the scenes and how his system is working out, but based on personal choices and tactics I dont have confidence in his ability.

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    Typical MLS players are not idiots... but if you grow up in substandard soccer training, which is often in college programs (and some of these guys were in college like 5-10 years ago, before the MLS renaissance), you can't just turn into a new player in a new system in 6 months thanks to a new coach. Winter can't turn Peterson or Gargan into a great player. Preki's method was simply to work with what ya got, don't expect to play the game the "beautiful way" and grind out results by bringing teams down to your level. A very practical approach. Not the "wrong" approach. It's one way of getting results in this growing league. Winter's is a different approach. We'll see if it works in time. Some teams have made something similar work out, but it wasn't fast, that's for sure.

    I mean, aren't we all in agreement that a good academy system in the Euro mode is better than the college system at training players? And don't we agree you have to get those kids learning at a very young age if they are to be good players? None of the typical MLS players that have been on TFC would have grown up in that environment. Not their fault, but I would assume they need a lot of learning. Shit, I've even heard Hans Backe (who a lot of people like here) complain about the level of ability of the kids he's getting from America. He certainly isn't playing them regularly.

    So really, I'm not surprised at these comments. It isn't proof that Winter is a bad coach yet. And with the academy developments, I hope they can be patient with it so that those kids coming up come to the senior team knowing the things that MLS players don't typically know.
    Last edited by rocker; 07-21-2011 at 04:31 PM.

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    very interesting comments.

    I actually thought that Gordon was one of the more intelligent players we had, and that he looke like one of the few players who knew what he was doing, using his movement to create space and all. He's obviously not the most naturally talented player, but his intelligence enabled him to play above most of the others on the team.

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    The key difference between RSL and TFC is that Real Salt Lake has had a core group of guys to build around. From their 2008 to 2010 team they had around a dozen guys they identified/and or built around.

    From TFC, if they are rebuilding, who are the dozen guys who will be around in 3-4 years, guys like Beckerman, Will Johnson, Jamison Olave, etc. And a couple of others like Findley and Movsisyan who have since moved on.

    And most of the core guys were NCAA guys so they "change their spots" so to speak.

    I guess like their MLSE brethern, they're going for a hybrid approach, a little from RSL and a little from NYRB.

    Fact is they're still flying by the seat of their pants. They say they're rebuilding. Fine. But in the process of rebuilding they're get their asses handed to them and getting embarrassed. And in the process, not really learning anything. So they bring in reinforcements - older players, players that go against the grain of rebuilding - in order to not be embarrassed anymore.

    So we'll see. While ultimately I will reserve finally judgement until the end of the season, if TFC can't salvage something in the CCL, this season has been unmitigated disaster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alonso View Post
    Dude, this board is not a single entity, people have opinions and they differ from eachother.

    Your major problem in dealing with this board, other people and I imagine in life, is that you see everything as black and white when in reality its a whole lot of grey.

    "we" "this board" are not in consensus about anything EVER.

    So stop talking about the board in generalizations.
    +1 could not have said it better

  24. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoop View Post
    The key difference between RSL and TFC is that Real Salt Lake has had a core group of guys to build around. From their 2008 to 2010 team they had around a dozen guys they identified/and or built around.

    From TFC, if they are rebuilding, who are the dozen guys who will be around in 3-4 years, guys like Beckerman, Will Johnson, Jamison Olave, etc. And a couple of others like Findley and Movsisyan who have since moved on.

    And most of the core guys were NCAA guys so they "change their spots" so to speak.

    I guess like their MLSE brethern, they're going for a hybrid approach, a little from RSL and a little from NYRB.

    Fact is they're still flying by the seat of their pants. They say they're rebuilding. Fine. But in the process of rebuilding they're get their asses handed to them and getting embarrassed. And in the process, not really learning anything. So they bring in reinforcements - older players, players that go against the grain of rebuilding - in order to not be embarrassed anymore.

    So we'll see. While ultimately I will reserve finally judgement until the end of the season, if TFC can't salvage something in the CCL, this season has been unmitigated disaster.
    TFC didn't get "their asses handed to them" by Dallas at all...we'll see what happens over the next number of games - but i agree that we are at a turning point now and i expect we will see a different, stronger team emerging. there is nothing wrong with supplementing the team with older experienced DP's while we rebuild and develop the academy....

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    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    TFC didn't get "their asses handed to them" by Dallas at all...we'll see what happens over the next number of games - but i agree that we are at a turning point now and i expect we will see a different, stronger team emerging. there is nothing wrong with supplementing the team with older experienced DP's while we rebuild and develop the academy....

    I was talking about previous games where the team was "rebuilding".

    I agree, the team did better last night to an extent. But bringing the guys they brought in goes against the grain of "rebuilding".

    By point is which players that are <25 that TFC has that are building blocks for the future?

    If you're rebuilding... fine... you go with the RSL model.

    If you want results now... you go with the NYRB model.

    It seems like they're switching gears half way through the season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
    Competently would've been nice.
    i'm talking about the China friendly up to the world cup

    beat china, won the concacaf gold cup, two draws with brazil, beat sweden, beat england, beat north korea

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    maybe the reason he makes them work on passing so much is because most of these players suck at it and can't put 3 passes together...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoop View Post
    The key difference between RSL and TFC is that Real Salt Lake has had a core group of guys to build around. From their 2008 to 2010 team they had around a dozen guys they identified/and or built around.
    if you added up there top 20 salaries, counting morales as a DP salary and luis gil as generation addidas still (so not against the cap), they are just over 3million in salary...love to know how they can be 400k over the cap or how they got that much in allocation

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    It's not surprising that MLS players wouldn't get the system. After reading that ESPN article that was posted the other day, clearly MLS players don't understand the basics and don't have those skills. That's clearly why they've brought in so many foreigners. When you've got even a handful of MLSers who don't get it intuitively, then you have weak links. Changing the culture of the team takes time, and that's why they've said they want to have that culture imbedded in the academy. This is the classic dilemma in MLS -- do you go with the longball, bruising, talentless style and win games, or do you try something more dynamic and wait a few years for success?

    How did NYRB get that system working so fast? Bring in a bunch of experienced foreigners, and don't depend upon kids or MLSers (Solli, Rodgers, Henry, Marquez, Taino, Rost, Lindpere are neither young nor MLSers).

    RSL and Dallas did something similar and it took a longer time for them. I'm sure if you ask players in Kreis and Hyndman's first years, you'd hear negative opinions.
    Some of our guys reported in from preseason in Charleston that Winter was having to teach guys which foot (or area) to pass the ball to and how to execute an offside trap.

    His teachings may just be advanced for this lot....

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    I'm so sick of the whining from north American pro athletes. If your company gets bought out by another you have two choices, you ether adapt to new procedures and policies or you seek employment elsewhere. But so many athletes here think everyone else is supposed to adapt to them. It's ridiculous and asinine.
    I'm glad to hear they do a lot of passing drills. Half the team can't pass to save their life. They can't hit a man running full pace, they have no zip and they have the touch of a pack of rapists.
    Winter is trying to change the club from top to bottom into something far more than we've ever seen in a north American sports team. If you ain't on board with that then get the hell off at the next stop.
    Last edited by Stryker; 07-21-2011 at 05:19 PM.

 

 

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