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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strikers View Post
    I agree with this statement, can't teach an old dog new tricks. The Acadmey will be huge in the future and that's why I think Winter was brought in. Ajax is arguably the best academy in the world.

    It better be, with only 8 international spots on the roster the rest of the players will have to be from the academy .

  2. #32
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    3 wins.
    NOTICE: Wager with STB: OVER 2 shots on goal in the First half wins a Pint at HT.

  3. #33
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    The same could be said for Jason Kries. Retired in 07 and was put in charge of RSL. Did nothing in 07, but made the playoffs in 08 and 09 - then won the championship in 10.

    Not saying Winter is Kries - but so far I haven't been upset with any of the moves "he" has made. I say "he" because I know Mariner had a hand in those moves as well. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for the now. we'll see how the season ends and what he has set up, but come 2011 - he's got til May to show me this team has arrived and is for real.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by McBrace View Post
    How is Winter to get familiar with the MLS if he doesn't get the chance to be part of it?
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by McBrace View Post
    I thought Preki had MLS Experience?? Look how that panned out..
    +2


    I am neutral on Winter and Co......like everyone I want to see him succeed. The thing that in my mind seems to differ between Winter and managers past....is that he really seems as if he is given the power to go out and make moves to try to improve the club. The purse strings are not tied and he can dump whoever he wants whenever it seems. I don't think any manager has been given such a long rope in the past.

    This long rope may come back to haunt him, but at least the club is giving him the reigns to run things.
    Follow me...... https://twitter.com/#!/aGeRoO76
    "Just like JDG. It wasn't a post-and-in shot, but JDG is smart & experienced" - Carts

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    Consdering other players (some who are still with TFC, some who are gone) have told me many of the same things, I am inclined to believe that most of this is true. I have made the Gullit comparison before, I think it's a risk that many TFC fans are simply ignoring because it's not a pleasant thought.

    We have lots of new players, some with excellent quality. But until the coaching issue is addressed, I think we will underperform. I doubt we will continue to be bottom of the league, but I think poor coaching will keep us simply as an average team (with one of the highest payrolls in the league) as opposed to a contending team.

    This MAY, be true, but what recourse does TFC really have? Surely we have to let him play out his tenure, if for no other reason than if TFC cut Winter we will look like asses who can't see a plan through because when times are tough we start pointing fingers.

    FO is in a tough spot if this is true.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    That is a far different task from the one he was brought here to do. It is a leap of faith to suggest that running the junior squad at Ajax would translate well into running a senior squad in MLS. A different set of skills would be required. If someone would identify instances in his position at Ajax where he showed tactical acumen, player development and team education, and getting the most out of working with less, I could understand. But we haven't seen anything of the sort, and yet everyone points to his job at Ajax as being impressive but nobody explains how his job at Ajax translates into benefits for us in MLS.
    This!

    Coaching an established Euorpean youth team and coaching a full professional team in the weirdest 1st division in the world are two totally different jobs.

    I actually wonder if there is a communication problem. How strong is Winter's English? I have a hard time believing the players are too stupid to learn his 'system'. Maybe not talented enough, but that's another story.

    How is it every other MLS team can find players to play and perform well in this league, except TFC?
    Last edited by menefreghista; 07-21-2011 at 02:14 PM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    It depends what the purpose of the Ajax academy was. Players in the system coming up through the various levels would already be familiar with the "system" and thus he had no need to teach it, simply to apply it and identify players that would excel.

    That is a far different task from the one he was brought here to do. It is a leap of faith to suggest that running the junior squad at Ajax would translate well into running a senior squad in MLS. A different set of skills would be required. If someone would identify instances in his position at Ajax where he showed tactical acumen, player development and team education, and getting the most out of working with less, I could understand. But we haven't seen anything of the sort, and yet everyone points to his job at Ajax as being impressive but nobody explains how his job at Ajax translates into benefits for us in MLS.

    If I am building a house, I don't want the contractor that built the CN Tower, I want a home builder that knows the intricacies and stylings of building something like a home. Right people for the the job. That's fundamentally my problem with Winter and been the achilles heel of MLSE and TFC since this team got off the ground. We still haven't learned that lesson.
    he was assistant coach of the 1st team at Ajax (a major team in europe) for 3 years not simply 'running a junior squad'

  8. #38
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    You pass in practice...cause the team can barely put 3 consecutive passes in a game..

    4-3-3.....system...if you cant pass the ball it will never work....as for the system....you need to have a high level of tallent on your team...thats why it will never work in toronto...players such as Gordon...just dont have the tallent..along with most players on tfc...

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Technorgasm View Post
    3 wins.
    Yup.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
    I'd like to see that ESPN article....tried searching and can't find it. Anyone have the link?
    http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/new...er-mission-mls

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    Quote Originally Posted by DangerRed View Post
    He said the coaches have done a horrible job explaining the "system' to the players and added that many just don't get it.
    Wow, the "system" isn't rocket science... it's not even hard algebra.

    Pass and move, pass and move... it's the fundamentals for any good footballer. If the players can't grasp the notion of moving into space when our team has possession (and from watching them stand around like pylons all year they apparently can't) then I think the problem is with the players not the coaches. Particularly when they teach it as a system, "when #7 has the ball, #8 should be here, #6 should be moving to here, etc" rather than an ad-hoc set of commands.

    I'm hoping the Academy produces a class of footballer with a decent footy IQ, because it seems it might be in short supply in North American players (I think our foreign players get the "system" but just aren't very skilled).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Technorgasm View Post
    3 wins.
    In 22 games.

  13. #43
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    Lazy, inept, unskilled and overpaid MLS players with entitlement and accountability issues should share half the blame.

    Most of the players who were "turned over" will not receive the same opportunity to be impact players in this league. They failed, they were shipped out. Plain and simple.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    he was assistant coach of the 1st team at Ajax (a major team in europe) for 3 years not simply 'running a junior squad'
    Maybe someone can verify this. Wikipedia has him as the coach of the reserve team not the senior squad. Any reference as an assistant on the senior squad?

    As for using Preki as an example of "MLS experience" this is called argument by selective observation where you count the hits and forget the misses when discussing evidence that supports your argument. Bruce Arena and Sigi Schmid are both coaches with extensive MLS experience, do they not count because one coach didn't work out? Preki should not be used to slam every coach that has worked in MLS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by backbeat View Post
    he was assistant coach of the 1st team at Ajax (a major team in europe) for 3 years not simply 'running a junior squad'
    Nope.

    He started of as the assistant of Ajax A1 which essentially their U18/19 (best of the academy) team and play in a national league and then moved on to be the head coach of Ajax A2 which is like their second U18 team who play in a regional league.

    Jong Ajax is the reserve team, U23.

    So no, he never coached or was part of Ajax's senior team coaching staff.

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    I was hoping you'd answer Vic, I knew you'd know the answer.

    Any opinion on how well he did with Jong Ajax and what their "raison d'etre" is?

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    This is how I see it. The players that have been traded (Gordon, Attakora, Peterson, Tchani) were all "injured" very often this season thus far. To the point of playing one game and becoming "injured" again, but they never actually pulled up limp on the field or anything during gameplay. They were just all of a sudden back on the injured list.

    If you ask me, Winter was cleaning out the lazy complainers and I am glad the players that left did leave.

    If you look at the example of Cann, he couldn't pass the ball accurately if his life depended on it all last season and the beginning of this season. It was only a couple months under Winter/Klerk until he actually looked comfortable with the ball at his feet and probably our best CB until his ACL tear. To me the limiting factor in that transformation is Winter/Klerk.

    There has to be a reason Gordon spent less than a full season at Chivas and only a few months here. And my guess it has to do with him and not Winter and Co.

  18. #48
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    Ok, I’ll break my moratorium on negativity to say a couple of things:

    1) the coaching staff traded for Gordon – I hope they find MLS players that are better for their system than the ones they previously acquired.

    2) Understanding something and impressing it on other people are two different things – can he teach? Does he understand his audience? I think our success will ultimately tell the story. People calling 4-3-3 impractical are missing the point. It is possible, but it has to be done by the right person.

    3) Youth academy – could probably save our bacon, if done properly, in five or six years! There is no way you are going to even have enough supplementary players out of that system anytime soon. In other words: don’t count on it.
    Last edited by ag futbol; 07-21-2011 at 02:39 PM.

  19. #49
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    But here's a question Thrillos...is what was traded done because they are "lazy complainers" or was it because of personality conflicts with Winter?

    What evidence is there that the players stated in your post were "lazy"? Or "complainers"? Or that simply how we justify it because Winter chose to send them off?

    This board is so very schizophrenic it almost gives me whiplash. One day we are praising Gordon and bemoaning his injury as the key factor in us not scoring and the next day he's lazy and useless and we're happy he's gone.

    Again I point out the amount of faith we are placing in "Winter and Co" without any real evidence that they know what they are doing.

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    Maybe someone can verify this. Wikipedia has him as the coach of the reserve team not the senior squad. Any reference as an assistant on the senior squad?

    As for using Preki as an example of "MLS experience" this is called argument by selective observation where you count the hits and forget the misses when discussing evidence that supports your argument. Bruce Arena and Sigi Schmid are both coaches with extensive MLS experience, do they not count because one coach didn't work out? Preki should not be used to slam every coach that has worked in MLS.

    I used Preki as an example because he was a coach for our club that had MLS experience, and had also been voted MLS coach of the year at one point.

    Seems to me the Top level MLS coach aren't available for hire..

    Am I impressed with our team, no. Am I willing to give it time, Yes.

  21. #51
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    Sometimes it's about timing McBrace.

    I would love to have Bradley here, but he wasn't available at the end of 2010. But word is he might be done soon with the USMNT. Bad timing for us. Maybe we could have had him.

    Whatever team picks him up (and my guess is that it will be a return to MLS), will have a solid coach with a competent resume that not many will question.

    Winter is a gamble at the very least and people don't even want to admit it.

  22. #52
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    You can go right here.

    https://www.ajaxonlineacademy.com/

    The academy teams always do well because they usually get the best players in the Netherlands. The goal of the academy, like any academy, is to get players to go to their senior team. During his time there were a few players that have gone on to contribute to the senior team like Siem de Jong (who just signed an extension today through to 2015) and Gregory van der Wiel.

    However, having said that, Johan Cruyff has come in to revamp the structure of the club. Not so much the actual structure but get the deadwood out. This was done after Winter left though.

    I think if he had done a better job though he would still be there though. Ajax likes to promote from within... if they can.

    You look at a current coach like Frank de Boer, who took over half way through the year and led them to a title this season. He was coaching the A1 team when he joined van Marwijk's staff at the World Cup and then moved to Ajax.

    Marco van Basten went from Jong Ajax to coaching the senior team.

    Right now the rising star in the coaching ranks at Ajax is Dennis Bergkamp. He is poised to take over as the head coach down the road.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoop View Post
    Nope.

    He started of as the assistant of Ajax A1 which essentially their U18/19 (best of the academy) team and play in a national league and then moved on to be the head coach of Ajax A2 which is like their second U18 team who play in a regional league.

    Jong Ajax is the reserve team, U23.

    So no, he never coached or was part of Ajax's senior team coaching staff.
    i stand corrected - thx!

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    Quote Originally Posted by rocker View Post
    It's not surprising that MLS players wouldn't get the system. After reading that ESPN article that was posted the other day, clearly MLS players don't understand the basics and don't have those skills. That's clearly why they've brought in so many foreigners. When you've got even a handful of MLSers who don't get it intuitively, then you have weak links. Changing the culture of the team takes time, and that's why they've said they want to have that culture imbedded in the academy. This is the classic dilemma in MLS -- do you go with the longball, bruising, talentless style and win games, or do you try something more dynamic and wait a few years for success?

    How did NYRB get that system working so fast? Bring in a bunch of experienced foreigners, and don't depend upon kids or MLSers (Solli, Rodgers, Henry, Marquez, Taino, Rost, Lindpere are neither young nor MLSers).

    RSL and Dallas did something similar and it took a longer time for them. I'm sure if you ask players in Kreis and Hyndman's first years, you'd hear negative opinions.
    Excellent post.

  25. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    Sometimes it's about timing McBrace.

    I would love to have Bradley here, but he wasn't available at the end of 2010. But word is he might be done soon with the USMNT. Bad timing for us. Maybe we could have had him.

    Whatever team picks him up (and my guess is that it will be a return to MLS), will have a solid coach with a competent resume that not many will question.

    Winter is a gamble at the very least and people don't even want to admit it.
    So the FO should just sit around an wait for these guys to come availble? Then you would bitch that they waited to long to appoint a manager....

    Somehow I don't think you'll ever be satisfied.....We could win by 5 and you'll argue that it should have been 6.

  26. #56
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    I didn't realize that when different people have different opinions which they express on different day in a public forum, it was considered schizophrenic.

  27. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by McBrace View Post
    We could win
    bahahahaha

    Quote Originally Posted by McBrace View Post
    by 5
    ...


    BAHAHAHAHAHA

  28. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    I would love to have Bradley here, but he wasn't available at the end of 2010. But word is he might be done soon with the USMNT. Bad timing for us. Maybe we could have had him.
    This actually makes me wonder how Philadelphia landed Nowak. He was Bradley's assistant and left to take over the Union.

    If I ran the team I would hire Bradley and dump Winter immediately. But I realize that won't happen.

    I do think MLSE/TFC FO should have a list of candidates available, as I do consider Winter a risk to quit out of frustration.

  29. #59
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    Is anyone really surprised by Gordon's comments considering the club's overall performance this season?

    It's been painfully obvious that several players were having difficulties executing the system that Winter is trying to implement. The question is, has the coaching staff been providing proper instruction in training, or is it a matter of certain players simply being incapable of grasping the nuances of the system because they lack the necessary football acumen.

    One thing is certain. Winter has stressed that all of the players he has acquired were identified as players that will "fit into the system". Considering that there are now a handful of players leftover from the previous regime, the majority of players on the current roster should theoretically be capable of executing his tactical approach once the recent acquisitions are acclimated to their new surroundings.

    TFC is predominantly Winter's team now. If the club does not exhibit tangible improvement and achieve results within the next few weeks, then I'm afraid Winter will have effectively run out of excuses.
    Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 07-21-2011 at 02:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    But here's a question Thrillos...is what was traded done because they are "lazy complainers" or was it because of personality conflicts with Winter?

    What evidence is there that the players stated in your post were "lazy"? Or "complainers"? Or that simply how we justify it because Winter chose to send them off?

    This board is so very schizophrenic it almost gives me whiplash. One day we are praising Gordon and bemoaning his injury as the key factor in us not scoring and the next day he's lazy and useless and we're happy he's gone.

    Again I point out the amount of faith we are placing in "Winter and Co" without any real evidence that they know what they are doing.
    Dude, this board is not a single entity, people have opinions and they differ from eachother.

    Your major problem in dealing with this board, other people and I imagine in life, is that you see everything as black and white when in reality its a whole lot of grey.

    "we" "this board" are not in consensus about anything EVER.

    So stop talking about the board in generalizations.

 

 

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