If you can believe it, I've combed through the thread to find the relevant posts to the thread I started and sent it to big D in a PM -- was really enjoying the exchange, before all of this.
But, like you, I'm not sure if even this limited option is available.
I find it hard to think that quoting you is mischaracterizing your hypothesis.Originally Posted by Roogsy
- You point to results as "proof" of Winter's poor coaching
- You claim that by acknowledging we had an under talented team, it just covered up his weakness
- You claim that better players will cover up his shortcomings
Where can Winter get a passing grade from you with these statements? It is impossible.
The majority of us recognize the following:
poor results can be attributed to one or a combination of the following: poor coaching, fitness, preparation, injury, fatigue, poor execution of a game plan, motivation, focus, poor individual match ups, environment, opponent's skill, etc.
positive results also have a factor or combination of factors including: good coaching, fitness, preparation, lack of injury, opponent fatigue, execution of a game plan, motivation, focus, favourable individual match ups, environment, opponent's skill, etc.
In your view of Winter, the record is king. It highlights his "weakness" if it is poor. If it is good, it "covers up his shortcomings." There appears to be no wiggle room in your view.
That's fine. Just come out and say you want him fired and there is nothing he can do to change your view.
I pointed you to my earlier post for a simple reason: you haven't actually answered my arguments. You selectively took one point, and acted as if that dismissed my entire post. I forget what that kind of debating tactic is called, I tend not to remember the latin names and such, but it certainly doesn't aid in understanding. How can I discuss things with you when you do that? Meanwhile, I'll take your word that you had doubts about Winter long before DeRo was shipped out.
Why I like to discuss things, I learn from them. I think that Beach Red's point, for example, of Winter probably just now actually getting some authority an interesting one, and he's pointed out some evidence for his view. That thought had never occurred to me until he brought it up, but it's a good idea, and he's pretty-well convinced me by this point. I don't really have much vested interest in convincing people of my point of view.
What I don't like doing is arguing with people with deeply entrenched positions. It's pointless. One writer once said, "just because you've silenced someone doesn't mean you've convinced him." I think no truer words have been written. Well, you're silencing me, only because I just don't have the stomach for this argument... but you haven't won a convert. Consider it weakness if you will, I don't really care anymore.
I'll let Pookie carry the torch for the "wait and see group" from here on in. He expresses himself very well, much better than I do, and has a very articulate, well-considered opinion.
Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-24-2011 at 05:09 PM.
MLS is a tough, physical league, that emphasizes speed, and features plastic fields, grueling travel, extreme weather, and incompetent refs. - NK Toronto
Let's try this a different way... provide evidence (facts, not opinion) that other coaches in MLS are good coaches. But don't use win-loss record. Cuz I know you said, for example, that Preki's good win-loss record for Chivas was not reflective of his ability as a coach, since Bob Bradley handed him a stacked team apparently. And guys like Kreis, Schmidt, Nicol, and even Arena have had poor seasons in their histories.
I just can't get a grip on what makes a good coach in this league.. something factual, something that isn't opinion.
Win-loss is probably all we have for "objective" measures, but as I said, guys like Schmidt and Kreis have won MLS Cups and had good teams and then also had some of the worst squads in MLS history according to win-loss. Sample size is an issue.... cannot compare less than a season of one coach to 5+ seasons of another. hmmm....
Last edited by rocker; 07-24-2011 at 05:20 PM.
Thank you.
Though, I'm not sure that I want to carry that particular torch.
Rocker's post is also deserving of a bang on label. The thing about records is that almost every coach that is or would be available was fired at one point, usually as a result of their record. A losing record doesn't make one a bad coach all on its own. Just as a winning record doesn't make one a genius.
Cause and effect is really hard to link when there are so many variables at play. Of course, one could just ignore all the variables and focus on one (such as record) but then that would be silly.
^^ This.
Okay, I'll bite…"wait and see"…how long does one wait? Based on what criteria?
Pookie asks "…point to results as "proof" of Winter's poor coaching"…how's, he was released as Ajax Academy coach and was unemployed for 18 months?
If Winter had a history of winning or turning Clubs around, I get it. But when is enough…enough? The end of the year? Two seasons?
I'm not prepared to throw Arron under the bus yet but I've seen little to impress me. IMO, the first year TFC team of Robinson, Dichio, Edu, Brennan and Sutton would beat the team that played Saturday night…quite easily. That team was poor…
“We changed the entire league’s opinion of the viability of soccer in North America. And then we blew it because we chickened out." —Tim Leiweke
I wouldn't lump the anti-Winter group with the pro-Dero group. I wanted Dero out the day after the cheque signing.
Last edited by ensco; 07-24-2011 at 09:08 PM.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
When it comes down to it, win-loss, play-off runs and trophies are the only real indicators of a good coach in the MLS. Preki had a very good regular season record but got beaten in the 1st round of the play-offs 3 years in a row. I wouldn't say Preki was a bad coach just played very dull football which is acceptable when you're winning but not when you're not.
As for Schmidt, he'd already won an MLS Cup, with experience like that in charge a rebuilding season is more palatable. Kreis did have vast MLS experience but I assume is that the RSL owner saw something in him that made him keep faith. Anyway I would caution using Schmidt and Kreis's poor seasons as a comparison to TFC because I've done the statistical research (I posted it in another thread) and we're on course to have worse PPG than either of those two squads.
I know you want something objective but to me this season performance is more important than results. We could have the same win-loss and if we'd put in more performances that gave some indication of progress and hope for the future I would be content. People make cracks about Vancouver being worse than us but honestly every game I've seen them in they've been competitive, I think they are an example of a team where the performances have been better than results, we aren't.
Last edited by Heathen; 07-24-2011 at 09:03 PM.
1) I wasn't a DeRo fan.
2) I was in the "wait and see" group for Winter at the start of the season.
3) Slowly realizing that Winter is in over his head.
As I mentioned before the only thing saving Winter right now, the only thing, is that lack of instability with the TFC franchise.
Everyone points to Kreis and his "poor record" after taking over the team in 2007.
Yet, they never lost by more than 2 goals, lost by 2 goals twice, and only gave up 4 goals once.
They were able to eke out some results. And the GD was only -8 in the 29 matches they played. And they didn't bring in 2 DPs halfway through the season.
So yeah, sure his record was 6-13-7. But if you delve further, 11 of those 13 losses were by 1 goal.
By contrast, when TFC loses, they lose big, of their 11 losses, only 3 have been by 1 goal. In fact 4 of the loses have been by 3+ goals.
TFC would be so lucky.
Last edited by Whoop; 07-24-2011 at 09:23 PM.
Contrast Toronto vs. Vancouver
Toronto - 11 loses
3 by 1 goal
4 by 2 goals
4 by 3+ goals
Vancouver - 10 loses
8 by 1 goal
2 by 2 goals
0 by 3+ goals
Moderator
That's fair. I also wouldn't lump in people who for one valid reason or another haven't given up on the management regime of Aron Winter as being "pro-management" or "anti-player", as has often been the case.
These mischaracterizations serve to do nothing but shut down the discussion. As OT presciently mentioned earlier - winning someone's silence doesn't mean you've "won" the discussion. It only means you've managed to brow beat them into submission - usually through a combination of condescension, and argumentum verbosium (since we apparently love our Latin around here).
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
Moderator
Yeah, I'm sure most folks here would be a lot happier if we were losing by slimmer margins, like we were last year under Preki.
This was such a happy place back then.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
It wasn't. Though not as bad as this year.
I'm just laying out the numbers for those who claim that Jason Kreis had a shitty 2007 year. Short of watching every RSL match from that 2007 season, while ultimately the W-L record doesn't bear it out, when you delve behind the numbers, this 2011 team is worse, record wise, than that 2007 team.
All I'm saying is for a "rebuilding" team TFC is doing a shitty job.
As I mentioned the other day... when you rebuild, you have some young core building blocks to build on.
What building blocks does TFC have to build on?
It's funny how similar it was - he doesn't have the roster he wants, injuries, no depth, etc..
But the two DP signings this year are a clear improvement (maybe Preki would have benefitted from a consultant or headhunter to go and get him DPs) and going forward this team will be better.
Unless there are more injuries or one of them gives up like Robert or.....
What are the odds Koevermans and Frings go "on loan" in the off season?
What are the odds Koevermans ever gets "match fit" now that he's had a look around?
Moderator
I'd put it at about 1%.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
Ok, flip it around...
What are the odds Frings and Koevermans finish their 2 1/2 year contract with TFC?
What precipitated this comment?
I understand the sense of cynicism based on the results this season, but these are world class professionals that have guaranteed contracts in place, and they have uprooted their families to take on a new challenge in the twilight of their careers, where they will be able to have a siginificant impact in a league that is slowly on the rise.
Are you actually suggesting that they will forfeit their lucrative salaries at some point because it will become too unbearable for them to fulfill their contractual obligations in Toronto?
So, TFC has no future building blocks, and after 2 games, you question whether or not the first astute DP signings in the club's history will last the duration of their contracts.
Well, I guess we might as well fold up the tent. What's the point?
Last edited by ManUtd4ever; 07-24-2011 at 10:52 PM.
Yeah I really don't see the comparisons there either. We're comparing a former MLS player to someone who previously had no knowledge of the league. Someone who was definitely on the inside of the locker room, to someone who had to bring a few players he was familiar with and then familiarize himself with everyone else. A guy who started mid-season to someone who had the benefit of a pre-season.
Maybe Winter will be his own example of success in the future, but in terms of being Kreis part II, I think not.
The Kreis comparison is really not that helpful.
Most managers don't work out. It's probably more instructive, from a data collecting POV, to look at the common elements among the many failures, and avoid those, than to try to understand the unique attributes of the few that succeed.
“What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”
The Kreis example is brought for no other reason than to provide evidence that a rebuild in MLS need not include horrific performances like the kind TFC have served up nor an unreasonable amount of time. I think the confusion arises when people either intentionally or not, decide to compare every facet of a team's development. That's always an impossible task with all teams in all sports. They're always unique situations.
I tend to agree with the OP . When you see the players live you can see the confusion in there coverage , or if watching on TV you can see it in rushed passes or not covering there man properly .
Instead of teaching a new system they really need to cover the basics like covering properly and passing to where the player will be and not where they currently are .
Sorry folks but the coach has to go and we do need a good defender .
And yes , TFC did seem to play pretty good in there game agienst KC , but they still gave up 4 goals .
Not many DPs end up fulfilling the length of their contract. And that's not including situations where there are horrific results.
But I'm still waiting to hear about these young building blocks that will leave TFC to the playoffs in 2012.
Moderator
It's a bit cynical to assume that results will be "horrific" for the next 2.5 years, and I think it has been demonstrated in MLS that you don't have to be led to the playoffs by young building blocks.
The nice thing about being a second rate league in a global sport, is that you literally have thousands of footballers all over the world to choose from. With that said, there are bonafide future MLS starters coming up through the ranks, like Henry. It also still remains to be seen how long talented youngsters like Plata and Eckersley will be with us.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
But that's the confusion.
Either there are building blocks, or a young core, for the future or you get to choose from the thousands of footballers to put together a playoff team.
That's why people are upset.
I'm just upset because while I expected the team to not make the playoffs, I didn't expect the team to be embarrassing.
Moderator
Like most MLS teams, they are building with a combination of one-time MLS draftees, DP veterans from proper leagues, budget signings from Europe, loans, and a hodge podge of other sources.
Whether their particular player choices will get the job done remains to be seen, but I certainly don't see them breaking from the norm around the league in how they are doing it.
I'm upset about this too, and still trying to work out for myself what I think the main cause is. When we get blown out, it's usually not the result of being steadily outplayed for a full 90 minutes. We concede multiple goals in short spans of time. Is it a confidence issue? Is it a failure of coaching? Can it be solved by bringing in a solid defender or two? Will it get better as these new guys all play together, and we get the chance to start putting more of our best XI on the field?I'm just upset because while I expected the team to not make the playoffs, I didn't expect the team to be embarrassing.
I don't think anyone gets the warm fuzzies watching our team get plowed by the rest of the league, and having other supporters call us Toronto Fail Club, or Terrible Football Club. I simply try to compartmentalize that embarrassment and frustration when I look analytically at our problems.
- Scott
“Heroism breaks its heart, and idealism its back, on the intransigence of the credulous and the mediocre, manipulated by the cynical and the corrupt.” ~Christopher Hitchens
The answer's, although not clear cut, in my opinion rest with Winter. You can rebuild a team and still have that team play with heart and character.
His formation/tactics, his player choices are baffling and Im sure disheartening, not only for the fans of this team but for some of the players
I believe he has full autonomy of this team......so I blame him
Scott, i tend to agree that i imagined less bullying of TFC by other teams. I think we've brought in some players with combative and winning mentalities. Johnson, Koevermans, Frings especially.
I'm still a tad worried about Iro, he looks a shadow of what i remember of him from Seasons past with Columbus.
with Cann and Williams back, that will certainly create more competition at the CB positions than is currently present. and boy oh boy, i hope we can sign eckersly.
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