Gordon dishes on TFC, Winter

[ForeverTFC]

This reminds of a finance course I had in my fourth year of university.

I enjoyed it thoroughly, learned a great deal (more than in all other classes, save a few), got a great mark (96) and was involved. Fair to say, I thought the Prof was wonderful.

To my surprise, many of my classmates did not share my feelings. They said that he goes too fast, does not explain things enough, does not know how to teach, and leaves them confused.

So my prof addressed this one day after several complaints. In his words: "this is a fourth year class. I am not here to hammer down points in your head, I am here to facilitate learning. What I am teaching, you should have known the basics of before stepping in this class. I simply do no have the time, or the resources to teach you 4 years of course material."

Moral of the story? Winter is a coach in a professional league. These players are supposed to be professionals, some of them over 25 years old. These are men that should have already known the basics. So while you may hear the majority up in arms about his coaching style, understand that it may be much more indicative of them.

[Beach_Red]

^ this is why coaches don't get tenure .

[FreekAce]

This reminds of a finance course I had in my fourth year of university.

I enjoyed it thoroughly, learned a great deal (more than in all other classes, save a few), got a great mark (96) and was involved. Fair to say, I thought the Prof was wonderful.

To my surprise, many of my classmates did not share my feelings. They said that he goes too fast, does not explain things enough, does not know how to teach, and leaves them confused.

So my prof addressed this one day after several complaints. In his words: "this is a fourth year class. I am not hear to hammer down points in your head, I am hear to facilitate learning. What I am teaching, you should have known the basics of before stepping in this class. I simply do no have the time, or the resources to teach you 4 years of course material."

Moral of the story? Winter is a coach in a professional league. These players are supposed to be professionals, some of them over 25 years old. These are men that should have already known the basics. So while you may hear the majority up in arms about his coaching style, understand that it may be much more indicative of them.

good post. bang on.

[ensco]

As for Winter's comments regarding character, he made that statement after the multi player trade with San Jose and the acquisition of Dunfield. The comment could have been directed at any one of Nana, Gordon, Peterson, or the group of departed players in general for that matter. If you think it was unprofessional on his part, you're entitled to your opinion, but don't patronize the rest of us with condescending comments.

You are generally more thoughtful than this. If you find it condescending (I don't know why you would, I don't recall ever directing a comment at you), feel free to ignore me, it's a growth industry.

I don't care how many times anyone tries to say otherwise, the only reasonable conclusion is that Winter was talking about Nana, not the team. The interpretation that he may have been talking about something else is not credible. Winter did it. What you might conclude about that is a different matter, that's opinion. Some things are opinions, some aren't.

[tiberius]

... maybe the romans used to gather round in bars and argue over which chariot racing team owner should be resting what horses and which charioteer should be sent to the lions and replaced by a carthaginian.

You are right - they did - I was there! I remember when Scorpus traded his best black chariot horse to Diocles - what an uproar!

[spark]

This reminds of a finance course I had in my fourth year of university.

I enjoyed it thoroughly, learned a great deal (more than in all other classes, save a few), got a great mark (96) and was involved. Fair to say, I thought the Prof was wonderful.

To my surprise, many of my classmates did not share my feelings. They said that he goes too fast, does not explain things enough, does not know how to teach, and leaves them confused.

So my prof addressed this one day after several complaints. In his words: "this is a fourth year class. I am not here to hammer down points in your head, I am here to facilitate learning. What I am teaching, you should have known the basics of before stepping in this class. I simply do no have the time, or the resources to teach you 4 years of course material."

Moral of the story? Winter is a coach in a professional league. These players are supposed to be professionals, some of them over 25 years old. These are men that should have already known the basics. So while you may hear the majority up in arms about his coaching style, understand that it may be much more indicative of them.

Curious if said prof got a high paying tenure in a country that has a much poorer education infrastructure, where the students didn't have the benefit of what we do in N.America, he would just go on assuming the same thing or would adjust his curriculum to at least ensure his students are grasping something of what he is teaching them.

[Pookie]

Maybe we are making progress despite our differences of opinion.

At least no one here is advocating trading Iro, Griffit, Borman, our 1st Round Pick and one of our DP designations to DC for you know who.

[v00d00daddy]

Curious if said prof got a high paying tenure in a country that has a much poorer education infrastructure, where the students didn't have the benefit of what we do in N.America, he would just go on assuming the same thing or would adjust his curriculum to at least ensure his students are grasping something of what he is teaching them.

Well...if he had the option of punting out the students who couldn't get it (or who didn't want to try)...I'm sure he would.

Those students that he saw the potential in he may assign the T.A. to tutor them through the rough patches.

Then he might call up the local high school business teachers and the 1st, 2nd and 3rd year profs and hand over the curriculm that would make any future students a success in his class.

[spark]

I did the same thing with Kreis. I thought he was crap. He traded away the league MVP for an injured player (Esky, many here said that Mo really took advantage of that "lousy" coach). His team set new records in futility. There was no cohesion and the locker-room was dispirited and not with the coach. All this for a coach with no experience whatsoever with coaching. I ridiculed him endlessly on this very board the first two seasons.

I was wrong, and I learned from that experience.

What I missed was that Kreis was putting into place a culture in his club. It took time. Coincidentally, that is what was always missing here in Toronto. We always had a mish-mash of players, many of them with bad attitudes, who didn't stick together and didn't meld. There were divides in the dressing room between the players, who ended up in certain camps. You know that this is true.

Cunningham was never league MVP. Under Kries RSL never set new levels of futility. When he took over they had yet to win a game, after his last trades in August they finished the year 4-4-3. I agree the culture may have taken time but he didn't do it despite results. Through the offseason he gets Olave and Borchers and the next year they are in the playoffs. The foundation of his team was set within 3 months and most of those players are still there today. Aside from Esko I can't see one 'boner' trade - or one that was a complete misfire at the expense of the club's success.

[Pookie]

Curious if said prof got a high paying tenure in a country that has a much poorer education infrastructure, where the students didn't have the benefit of what we do in N.America, he would just go on assuming the same thing or would adjust his curriculum to at least ensure his students are grasping something of what he is teaching them.

Sort of what Gordon was saying though wasn't it? That this team (in a developmental league) was spending time on improving their technical skills.

(the following isn't necessarily directed at your comment)

Apparently, that is a source for concern for some people as in watching the team it must have been clear that we never make errors in passing, shooting, crossing, etc. We shouldn't focus on these at all. We should be 100% focused on tactics.

It's ok for David Beckham to run a "Crossing Clinic" for MLS players but apparently it isn't ok for a coach to want to improve the collective skill set of his team... which is in a developmental league in case someone missed that concept.

?

[tiberius]

Maybe we are making progress despite our differences of opinion.

At least no one here is advocating trading Iro, Griffit, Borman, our 1st Round Pick and one of our DP designations to DC for you know who.

Is Winter going after Charlie Davies?

[Beach_Red]

Apparently, that is a source for concern for some people as in watching the team it must have been clear that we never make errors in passing, shooting, crossing, etc. We shouldn't focus on these at all. We should be 100% focused on tactics.

It's ok for David Beckham to run a "Crossing Clinic" for MLS players but apparently it isn't ok for a coach to want to improve the collective skill set of his team... which is in a developmental league in case someone missed that concept.

?

Development league or not, they still need to win games. What seemed to be missing from TFC so far this year is any sense that they are concerned with winning any games in the near future. For a last place team they sound very arrogant about how they're going to "build" this team into something. They never seem to know the team they are playing against and which approach would be best against that team.

And this isn't school, it's business. In the example above replace professor with CEO and have him tell the employees (of the company which is in last place in their industry) that he just doesn't have the time or the resources to help them do better and they should know it all by now. Would you buy stock on that company? Or in its competition that already has a big lead?

[spark]

Well...if he had the option of punting out the students who couldn't get it (or who didn't want to try)...I'm sure he would.

Those students that he saw the potential in he may assign the T.A. to tutor them through the rough patches.

Then he might call up the local high school business teachers and the 1st, 2nd and 3rd year profs and hand over the curriculm that would make any future students a success in his class.

Haha ok don't want to take this thread (well I guess it could get more off-track) on what a prof would do ... because that plan looks fine - my opinion is in the here and now he has students and his job is to teach them. If they are sinking nobody wins (get it?!) if he just shrugs his shoulders and says 'sucks to be you, too bad you're not as educated as kids in Canada, get out of my class'. Maybe while your plan is being implemented he adjusts his own curriculum so everyone is getting the most out of his course, the students come away with something, and when everything is caught up he resumes as he normally would?

If anyone has thoughts on what a 4th year prof teaching in a 2nd/3rd world country should do please feel free share

[tiberius]

Haha ok don't want to take this thread (well I guess it could get more off-track)

No worries - I don't think you can blow it much more off track - I mean Gordon does get mentioned at least once every 20 posts or so... I've now mentioned Gordon, so we can follow the professor train of thought again for a while...

[Pookie]

Development league or not, they still need to win games. What seemed to be missing from TFC so far this year is any sense that they are concerned with winning any games in the near future. For a last place team they sound very arrogant about how they're going to "build" this team into something. They never seem to know the team they are playing against and which approach would be best against that team.

Sure they need to win games.

However, it is about expectations. If you don't have the tools, you can't expect to win.

This reminds me a lot of parents whose kids play for "Select" teams. As an example, on a select team there are generally 2 or more teams from the same club. The Club makes up 2 teams by ranking players 1 through 28 and sending player #1 to Team A and player #2 to Team B. Player #3 went to A, Player 4 went to B. The teams are balanced.

When a Select teams goes up against a Rep team, a team that takes the 14 best players, what is the expected result?

To hammer away at a team with unrealistic expectations is a silly exercise, IMO.

Go down our pre-July 15th roster and explain to me how TFC was better, on paper, than teams in the league?

Of course, this is about winning and I am in 100% agreement with you. So the challenge to Winter was to improve the team on paper AND THEN take that team and improve upon the results.

That sounds reasonable, doesn't it?

[Beach_Red]

^ In January TFC's roster was good enough to compete for 10th place in the league. If this is one step back for two steps forward, great.

I get the feeling, though, for this team to finish 10th they're going to have to have a top 3 roster because they lose too casually. As Whoop says, don't underestimate the effect of getting blown out so often.

All MLS teams have holes in their rosters, the key to success in this league is not leaving the holes too exposed, not trying to fill in every one.

But we'll see. I very much want to see TFC become a top team, a winning team. I guess it might even be better to wait a while until that is accomplished with homegrown talent (even if pro sports don't really work like that anymore).

[Roogsy]

Seriously, count mine in this thread alone.

Surely Im allowed a few posts to state my opinion, and the right to rebutt anybody who counters it.

Im confused as to what people think discussion boards are actually for.

VooDoo, I disagree with you, Im getting all kinds of semi-flamebait abuse from you, kenny and several others for presenting an opinion which is as credible, well thought out and well intentioned as yours.

Im being restrained, to be honest. I just want to discuss the teams issues from my standpoint. It would be nice if we were winning and the most argumentative thread was about whether Santos or Koevermans would get 15 goals first, but thats not happening.

The results dictate the fans will gather and offer their respective opinions and talk about them till everybody's sick of everybody else. Its a century old tradition, jeez I dunno... maybe the romans used to gather round in bars and argue over which chariot racing team owner should be resting what horses and which charioteer should be sent to the lions and replaced by a carthaginian.

again, thanks for your opinion, but stop pretending that there are only three people who disagree with you.

The ironic part in this? The negativity only comes when there is lack of respect on BOTH sides. But somehow it's the fault of only one side? Like somehow they are not complicit for the volume of posts?

So fine, some may come here to want to get pumped up and only read what tickles their ears. That's their choice. I think it's Ostrich syndrome but that's my personal belief. They can take whatever measure they feel is appropriate. Whether it be avoid threads, put people on ignore or not visit the board. It's a free country.

And you're right ER, we're not the only ones that feel that way. It's just that many people who feel this way are so tired of this team that they don't even bother anymore. So instead of worrying about the declining reputation of this club, we're supposed to look for the chocolate in this shit sandwich?

The only ones left will be the cheerleaders.

[ManUtd4ever]

Ensco, if I misinterpreted your post, then I retract my statement.

However, your post unequivocally stated that the forum is dominated by people that have grown to automatically side with management, and that it was a sad reflection on the forum as a whole. In actuality, the majority of posters have been neutral in their assessment of the subject matter of this thread.

Furthermore, you insinuated that anyone who doesn't share your opinion in criticizing management have twisted facts to support their position.

As for Winter's comments, we will agree to disagree. It is a matter of opinion as to whether his comments were directed at Nana, and whether they were appropriate or not.

[tiberius]

... So instead of worrying about the declining reputation of this club, we're supposed to look for the chocolate in this shit sandwich?

The only ones left will be the cheerleaders.

To be fair - you were mildly optimistic after the last game. In fact we went from shit to kinda average/maybe:

Pretty much what I expected, I said this team would need 2-3 games to find their way and losing to a top club in MLS shouldn't surprise us. These guys are after all MLS Cup finalists. I thought there was some good points to take. The DPs did show flashes of their superior quality. I thought Soolsma did well coming on as a sub.

But the D. Oh dear lord that D. And the space again in the middle of the pitch could fit several small houses.

Overall, better. But better from shit is something along the lines of average, and considering the payroll of this roster, average is not good enough. Let's hope that with time, it goes well above average.

Was that more of a post game high that has disipated somewhat, or was the shit sandwich reference more of a commentary on the season, as opposed to where we are at this instant? Are you still hopeful about the next few games?

[Roogsy]

Tiberius, I fully expect our DPs to make us a better team. So I am midly optmistic that their quality will have us avoid getting blown out 5-0 again. We may even manage a few more wins. The problem is that these new DPs don't address the lack of quality in the coaching. And until that is addressed, the impact of the new DPs will still have a drag on it as the ultimate performance will not be optimized unfortunately. And I, like my fellow TFC fans on the opposite side of this opnion, only want a successful club. To do that you have to methodically remove all obstacles in our path.

[Pookie]

So let me get this straight, the quality of players NOW is directly responsible for any improved results. The coaching has nothing to do with it.

Even though the quality of the players was poor BEFORE (since they are better NOW), the results are to be pinned on the coaching???

Honestly...

[Roogsy]

Im being restrained, to be honest. I just want to discuss the teams issues from my standpoint. It would be nice if we were winning and the most argumentative thread was about whether Santos or Koevermans would get 15 goals first, but thats not happening.

This statement reminds me of what it's like to visit friends watching soccer games live. Whether it be my Italian friends watching it at someone's home or coffee shop or family watching it at the local cantina or restaurant, the conversations get very heated. This is soccer. Some people need to grow thicker skin. Considering the attacks you and I have sustained on this board, it makes some of the more whiney posters seem a little sensitive. As long as lines aren't crossed and rules aren't broken, I am not sure what exactly people want, homogenous agreement?

[Oldtimer]

If the quality of the players was poor, how can you pin the results on the quality of the coaching???

You can't, but you can always alter reality to fit your preconceived notions.

The hate on Winter is really about DeRo, always has been.

[Roogsy]

If the quality of the players was poor, how can you pin the results on the quality of the coaching???

I think that's a fundamental question Pookie and for me the biggest reason I am not a Winter fan.

Nobody was asking Winter to win the MLS with his previous squad. But the quality of a coach can indeed be determined by what he squeezes out of whatever squad he has on his hands. If it's not already widely accepted, it is certainly being debated that Winter wasn't able to get very much out of the squad he had, as undertalented as it was. That is an incredibly worrisome sign. We could still have a 3-10-9 record but with much more fight apparent, and that would have been indicative by closer results of 1-0 or 2-1 instead of many blowouts. The -20 goal diff is a BIG tell.

Of course player quality is going to have an impact. And nobody is denying it did before. But you understate the responsibility of a coach when it suits you but then emphasize their importance when it is convenient to do so.

[Roogsy]

You can't, but you can always alter reality to fit your preconceived notions.

The hate on Winter is really about DeRo, always has been.

It isn't and the fact that you continue believeing it to be shows that you don't read my posts, you complain about them. It's not surprising considering when tested, you can't even back up your own claims.

It's a weak tactic to attack the person instead of the argument, it's called ad hominem and it's your most overused strategy and very transparent.

It's also a BIG reason why thread degenerate into what they become. Want to know why thread become shitshows? Look in the mirror. Right there is a big reason. Not the only one, but a big factor.

[Pookie]

You can't, but you can always alter reality to fit your preconceived notions.

The hate on Winter is really about DeRo, always has been.

Pretty good theory there.

I'd like to see us try to trade Iro, Giffit, Borland, the 1st rounder and one of our DP slots to DC just to end the drama.

[Pookie]

I think that's a fundamental question Pookie and for me the biggest reason I am not a Winter fan.

Nobody was asking Winter to win the MLS with his previous squad. But the quality of a coach can indeed be determined by what he squeezes out of whatever squad he has on his hands. If it's not already widely accepted, it is certainly being debated that Winter wasn't able to get very much out of the squad he had, as undertalented as it was. That is an incredibly worrisome sign. We could still have a 3-10-9 record but with much more fight apparent, and that would have been indicative by closer results of 1-0 or 2-1 instead of many blowouts. The -20 goal diff is a BIG tell.

It's a big tell but what is it telling? Poor coaching or poor roster quality?

What you are implying is as follows"

The quality of players NOW is directly responsible for any improved results. The coaching has nothing to do with it.

Even though the quality of the players was poor BEFORE (since they are better NOW), the results are to be pinned on the coaching???

Help me understand where that makes sense.

[Roogsy]

It's a big tell but what is it telling? Poor coaching or poor roster quality?

What you are implying is as follows"

The quality of players NOW is directly responsible for any improved results. The coaching has nothing to do with it.

Even though the quality of the players was poor BEFORE (since they are better NOW), the results are to be pinned on the coaching???

Help me understand where that makes sense.

I edited my previous response while you were answering so I will put it here: (I do that often, as thoughts pop into my head)

Of course player quality is going to have an impact. And nobody is denying it did before. But you understate the responsibility of a coach when it suits you but then emphasize their importance when it is convenient to do so.

The quality of the DPs is undeniable and it will help us overcome negative aspects of our club. But like I stated before, it`s like covering up sweaty stink with cologne instead of taking a shower. It`s just masking the problem, not removing it.

Having an undertalented team meant there was no "cover up" for Winter, exposing his weakeness as a coach.

Having a more talented squad helps cover up his shortcomings, but it doesn't make him a better coach no more than cologne means a person is any cleaner just because you can't smell the sweat.

[Roogsy]

Pretty good theory there.

I'd like to see us try to trade Iro, Giffit, Borland, the 1st rounder and one of our DP slots to DC just to end the drama.

It is only a good theory if it can be proven. And that is easily done by disproving what I claim to be the problem with this team, which is Winter's coaching weaknesses. Have any evidence that he is a good MLS coach? Put it forward and it would go a long way to proving my claims wrong. I'd really like to see such evidence. Otherwise, the "theory" is just a dig.

[Azerban]

The hate on Winter is really about DeRo, always has been.

i'm not full of care regarding dero either way, tending towards the side of "glad he's gone", and i still believe winter has done an demonstratively terrible job so far, and shows little sign of getting any better

what now