Gordon dishes on TFC, Winter

[Roogsy]

It's not sad, it's fact. You have no right to tell me to shut up just because you don't like what I have to say. And the paid membership only makes that more valid.

Blind spot with regards to what? If there was evidence that people are "waiting and seeing" then where is it? Because an approval rating of 70% and the player bashing that goes on here in the face of the results with Winter getting a pass doesn't say that. That doesn't sound balanced at all. If people are pinning our results on the players, then they have indeed made a decision and they can claim "wait and see" all they like, the evidence is already there that judgement has been made. It also proves why people are so willing to write off the first 2/3 of the season because in their eyes, Winter did a good job but the players didn't. Otherwise, the evidnece you would see is people criticizing both player AND coach or neither at all. Unless that has actually happened and I didn't see it (in which case I would indeed be guilty of having a blind spot) then the opposite must be the case.

As for options, there are many. But why would I propose them when so overwhelmingly people will say that it's not necessary? It would be like singing to a deaf person. The logical first step would be to convince people that there is a need first and THEN talk next steps. That hasn't happened...yet. I suspect it will at some point if Winter continues to disappoint, but like the MoJo era, it will be far later than it should as we fool ourselves into false hope and waste yet another year.

And FYI...I do have people that work for me. And they regularly refer friends and family to work for me whether it be as summer interns or assistants. And to date, nobody has quit on me, rather I have referred many into promotions. I give them plenty of flexibility and leeway. And I believe in a relaxed working environment. I've never had a single employee conflict and I've been managing people for years so it actually made me chuckle a little when you questioned my ability to manage people. It's this experience that helps me see what a poor personnel manager Winter actually is.

[denime]

It's not sad, it's fact. You have no right to tell me to shut up just because you don't like what I have to say. And the paid membership only makes that more valid.

Blind spot with regards to what? If there was evidence that people are "waiting and seeing" then where is it? Because an approval rating of 70% and the player bashing that goes on here in the face of the results with Winter getting a pass doesn't say that. That doesn't sound balanced at all. If people are pinning our results on the players, then they have indeed made a decision and they can claim "wait and see" all they like, the evidence is already there that judgement has been made. It also proves why people are so willing to write off the first 2/3 of the season because in their eyes, Winter did a good job but the players didn't. Otherwise, the evidnece you would see is people criticizing both player AND coach. Unless that has actually happened and I didn't see it (in which case I would indeed be guilty of having a blind spot) then the opposite must be the case.

You still did not answer his main question.Give as an option instead of critics.What can we do? Please don't reply with don't buy merch,beer etc.What you think we can do to make a difference,do you really think they give a fuck about this board and our opinions?

I would really like to know what is the BIG thing we should do,if it makes any sense I'll be the first one to join and support you.

And tiberius don't get personal,this is the RPB board afterall.

[tiberius]

It's not sad, it's fact. You have no right to tell me to shut up just because you don't like what I have to say. And the paid membership only makes that more valid.

Perhaps you are right, that I have no right to tell you to be quiet on a subject because you are so negative.... I dunno... Are you saying that if I pay $20 I can freely and without prejudice tell you the shut the fuck up? If so, I would have to say "membership has its privileges!"

That aside, I don't know how else to get your attention...

If your plan is to ride out the season with Winter, like the rest of us, then I think it is fair to say that most don't want to hear from you a play by play, minute by minute, day by day deconstruction and destruction of the coaching staff. I do believe that that this is just too depressing, un helpful, and non-functional for most of us.

I think what you need to do is to come out of the closet - just move your self to the "get rid of Winter now" camp. We can see the wolf inside the sheeps clothing anyway...

[Roogsy]

You still did not answer his main question.Give as an option instead of critics.What can we do? Please don't reply with don't buy merch,beer etc.What you think we can do to make a difference,do you really think they give a fuck about this board and our opinions?

I would really like to know what is the BIG thing we should do,if it makes any sense I'll be the first one to join and support you.

And tiberius don't get personal,this is the RPB board afterall.

It's not one big thing, it's many things that can and should be done.

Putting pressure on the team is not somethign that should blow up when patience finally runs out. It should be something that grows incrementally before it gets to that point. THAT has been the supporters main problem from the very beginning, on every issue that arises between supporters and the FO. We are always in crisis mode. We are always reacting, not being proactive. Putting out fires instead of putting in place deterrents.

The very first thing I think supporters should have done and can still do is to get a concrete and inequivocal promise from Toronto FC that we will make the playoffs next year. Period. No wavering. No qualifications. If we don't make the playoffs, major heads should roll. 2 full seasons in charge should produce at least this much, unless of course we're already preparing excuses as to why we can't make 10th out of 18 teams? We speak about it here about it being a minimum result, but why don't we have a promise from the FO? There is no way to hold them accountable to that unless we get that promise out of them.

If we can't even get this assurance from the team, then what's the point of doing anything else? A clear and unquestionable performance measure is an expected and logical demand of any high performance position. And yet we dance and skirt around this issue like we are going to hurt someone's feelings?

Why don't we have this already?

[tiberius]

...

And tiberius don't get personal,this is the RPB board afterall.

I will try to stick to the issues as best I can, but sometimes the issues seem to be stuck on certain individuals... I will do my best!

[Roogsy]

Perhaps you are right, that I have no right to tell you to be quiet on a subject because you are so negative.... I dunno... Are you saying that if I pay $20 I can freely and without prejudice tell you the shut the fuck up? If so, I would have to say "membership has its privileges!"

That aside, I don't know how else to get your attention...

If your plan is to ride out the season with Winter, like the rest of us, then I think it is fair to say that most don't want to hear from you a play by play, minute by minute, day by day deconstruction and destruction of the coaching staff. I do believe that that this is just too depressing, un helpful, and non-functional for most of us.

I think what you need to do is to come out of the closet - just move your self to the "get rid of Winter now" camp. We can see the wolf inside the sheeps clothing anyway...

I do not hide behind platitudes. If you're asking me directly if I would prefer Winter gone now I would say without hestitation yes. But I know the damage it would cause the organization and I know people need so much evidence that it's coming out of their ears before they stumble on to the right decision, so I am willing to wait until that happens.

But don't sit there and make it sound like I am being vague or politically correct. Those are not things people have ever been able to accuse me of.

To put it clearly for the umpteenth time, I feel we have to ride out the season with Winter because we have to, not because I want us to. But that doesn't mean that I am not firmly in the camp that thinks Winter is the wrong guy for TFC. I am already there.

[Shakes McQueen]

Haha, I'm glad I took a couple of days away from here.

- Scott

[tiberius]

The very first thing I think supporters should have done and can still do is to get a concrete and inequivocal promise from Toronto FC that we will make the playoffs next year. Period. No wavering. No qualifications. If we don't make the playoffs, major heads should roll.... why don't we have a promise from the FO? There is no way to hold them accountable to that unless we get that promise out of them.

^^this^^ 110% -> if things are not looking reasonable by early May of 2012, it should be "off with their heads!" If they can't make the 2012 playoffs then take the whole mariner/declerke/winter team and add them to the nincompoop pile. No excuses. No wavering. I would go so far as to say they go up on the wall of shame beside MO.

[ManUtd4ever]

Haha, I'm glad I took a couple of days away from here.

- Scott

It was actually an interesting thread at one point.

[Roogsy]

^^this^^ 110% -> if things are not looking reasonable by early May of 2012, it should be "off with their heads!" If they can't make the 2012 playoffs then take the whole mariner/declerke/winter team and add them to the nincompoop pile. No excuses. No wavering. I would go so far as to say they go up on the wall of shame beside MO.

But it hasn't happened, and I believe it won't happen. All of us that have been paying attention to this team since 2006 have come to realize that everyone in that organization covers their ass and "hedges their bets".

Shoot...even when they made direct promises, they didn't keep them. But it gave them headaches. So they stopped making promises altogether.

So we won't get any I am sure.

So if TFC does not make the playoffs next year, what do you think would happen? From the limp-wrist approach supporters have taken with the FO, not much I am afraid. And that is what frustrates me and what feeds my posts. We've become that which we fought so hard not to become, cheerleaders with absolutely no power to hold this team accountable. We spent our one bullet last year in the protest but instead of building on that, we decided to waste the effort by going back to the "way things were".

Like Ensco, I can't do that. In my opinion, TFC betrayed their fans. And they have not honestly earned back any sort of loyalty and yet we are giving it to them freely. It actually makes me sad because I was actually proud of the supporters at the end of last year as hard as it was to get people off their asses. We accomplished something and then turned around and let it go to waste.

And in the process, made ourselves impotent.

That's why I am angry. It has nothing to do with DeRo (that's a red herring) and everything to do with the approach we have taken this year towards the team. Strategically, we've lost the advantage.

[Roogsy]

If Bruce Arena was coaching this team, would we suck this badly?

Nope. We'd show much more heart and have squeezed out better results. And to me this is why I think Winter was a poor choice. We needed someone who could take care of this team long term but also generate confidence in the short-term. I am not sure Winter can do the former and he obviously can't do the latter.

[Whoop]

You need wins to get some confidence.

Don't underestimate that.

These guys once they give up a goal just tend to give up.

[tfcocd]

explain RSL then. Their lineup is full of CHEAP and apparently DUMB Americans.

Yes, RSL is a great example of north american players playing with technical ability and tactical awareness. I have to believe that the US national program and leading college programs employ sophisticated training that emphasize both technical skill and tactical knowledge. The best colleges that employ full time coaching staff surely model themselves after succesful training programs and integrate themselves with community clubs to recruit players that fit into there system.

[Roogsy]

You need wins to get some confidence.

Don't underestimate that.

These guys once they give up a goal just tend to give up.

When you've been told repeatedly you're not good enough, how can anyone expect confidence not to suffer?

Great management style.

And I suspect that is the sort of thing that Gordon was pointing to. In the end, we either accept that this is not a positive management style or we blame the players and accept the style as being ultimately beneficial.

If we each apply it to our own workplace, I wonder how many would react positively to such a style and whether it would motivate us to produce our best work?

Maybe then we can answer the Gordon question.

[Whoop]

Coaching involves a little coddling and a little prodding. You have to know how to use both.

Knowing when to coddle and when to prod comes with experience.

[tiberius]

...To put it clearly for the umpteenth time, I feel we have to ride out the season with Winter because we have to, not because I want us to. But that doesn't mean that I am not firmly in the camp that thinks Winter is the wrong guy for TFC. I am already there.

We are not very far apart on the above.

The issue is: If we want Winter to succeed do we:
a) publicly ride his ass day after day, month after month
or do we:
b) suck it up, set the objectives of much better play + playoffs in 2012 and stop riding his ass, give him room and see what happens?

I just don't see how riding his ass daily does anything positive at this point, and in fact it probably has a negative effect if we actually want him to succeed... There are times to kick ass and take names and there are times to back off and see what happens...

As far as criticizing the players go, I try not to go down that road too often - my point was that it is a little rich if Yourass gives away the ball, and then Frings misses a tackle and Shea makes a spendid strike and then we want to dump it all on Winter. Sure, Winter is part of the accountability mix but... sometimes being a coach just sucks, even when you manage to get someone like Frings to come and play for you...

[tiberius]

But it hasn't happened, and I believe it won't happen. All of us that have been paying attention to this team since 2006 have come to realize that everyone in that organization covers their ass and "hedges their bets".

Shoot...even when they made direct promises, they didn't keep them. But it gave them headaches. So they stopped making promises altogether.

So we won't get any I am sure.

Like Ensco, I can't do that. In my opinion, TFC betrayed their fans. And they have not honestly earned back any sort of loyalty and yet we are giving it to them freely. It actually makes me sad because I was actually proud of the supporters at the end of last year as hard as it was to get people off their asses. We accomplished something and then turned around and let it go to waste.

And in the process, made ourselves impotent.

That's why I am angry. It has nothing to do with DeRo (that's a red herring) and everything to do with the approach we have taken this year towards the team. Strategically, we've lost the advantage.

Sigh... Truer words have not been spoken - especially about the betrayal - we are all in the same damn boat.

So if TFC does not make the playoffs next year, what do you think would happen? From the limp-wrist approach supporters have taken with the FO, not much I am afraid. And that is what frustrates me and what feeds my posts. We've become that which we fought so hard not to become, cheerleaders with absolutely no power to hold this team accountable. We spent our one bullet last year in the protest but instead of building on that, we decided to waste the effort by going back to the "way things were".

I am not sure what would happen with a missed playoffs next year, but I doubt the response will be "limp wristed". I actually think that the team would experience a drought unlike anything MLSE has ever seen or experienced before. They will also reap the whirlwind of fan/supporter anger. It won't be quite "Marlie ville" in the stands because there are probably a group of 8-10,000 fairly hardcore TFC fans to pull from, but I think we will be talking 6-8K a game...

But that is doomsday - Even a blind pig can find a playoff spot in 6 years - can't he? You have to admit things looked a little better last game!

[bman27]

The Problem right now was mentioned a couple of posts back, It truly is impossible to look at this black and white. It feels like we are quick to polarize just for the sake of creating opposing sides. If someone is saying I don't think we should pass judgement on a couple of months, look at the roster situation, the side drama etc... They are labeled "pro- Winter" naive, blind and everything else.

The Same can be said about people on the other side of the Spectrum. labels being thrown out as impatient and typical north american sports fan arn't helping the dicussian either. as for my opinion here are a couple things a think we need to seriously need to consider when looking at the job Winter has done so far.

The Timing and Injuries so far:
I seriously believe that the January start date for the Season puts the whole league at a disadvantage when it comes to player movement. Winter has mentioned the challenges that have come with the 4-3-3 system, particularly the North Americans. The concept seemed to be to try to bring in players who were familiar with this type of system. The problem is what level of players are you expecting to bring in who are out of contract mid way through the European Season? your not going to build quality from scraps and journeymen, Hopefully the signings of guys like Frings and Koov are just the start of signing players for an impact, not just to fill space.

I don't think anyone can deny the obvious impact injuries have played so far , especially in our back line. We all know guys like Gargan and Harden should not be starting games in this league plain and simple. If we had a back four of Eckersley Williams Cann and Yourassowsky or something similar for most of the games so far this season, Would we see the NY or philly game end up the way they were? When was the last time we had what would be considered our best possible line up at that time on the pitch? What about the impact of a completely healthy De Guzman so far this year? Both Santos and Gordon have flirted with injuries all season as well, with them both playing up to the level they both had showed at times and most games, Our goal difference might not be the utter shit it is now..

but all of that is besides the point, these are the cards we have been dealt so far.

One point I want to make however is the attitude that some posters seem to have when it comes to the players and management. I understand completely all of the Frustration that has come with dealing with the mismanagement of team the past four years, on the pitch and off. However I feel many supporters are letting their feeling about the owners cloud their judgement on how well this management is doing. When there is no news about signings its "we are so shit we can't find players who will play for us" or "it is too quiet, typical, we arn't doing anything" just because it doesn't seem like the media knows who's coming to the team before Mariner does, unlike a certain Ginger.......

My biggest pet peeve however is that some posters have seemed to completely absolve the players of any responsibility for their actions on the field. This team definitely has had a "heart" issue this year, missing any spark and aggressiveness, but instead of talking about how our captain many times is the laziest player on the pitch and needs to lead by example, we dissect every little thing about our system and our managers instead, I'm all for accountability, but it needs to be for both sides.

I have a Background as a classical Musician, and lots of my personal experience can relate to the situation we have here. you can have a good Conductor or bad conductor (like a manager) You can practice the same symphony for hours and hours, going through it note by note, but it wont make a world of difference how good your conductor is if the attention isn't spent by the musician. The Relationship is two ways, the Conductor does their job by expressing how they want the piece to be performed, but it is up to the orchestra to perform it, and all it takes is one wrong note by one musician (kind of like yourassowsky on wednesday night) and a piece can be ruined. it is a fine balancing act between both.

anyways end rant/ comments are more then welcome, I know there will definitely be differing opinions then mine, and that just makes for great entertainment

[tiberius]

...
One point I want to make however is the attitude that some posters seem to have when it comes to the players and management. I understand completely all of the Frustration that has come with dealing with the mismanagement of team the past four years, on the pitch and off. However I feel many supporters are letting their feeling about the owners cloud their judgement on how well this management is doing.
...
My biggest pet peeve however is that some posters have seemed to completely absolve the players of any responsibility for their actions on the field. This team definitely has had a "heart" issue this year, missing any spark and aggressiveness, but instead of talking about how our captain many times is the laziest player on the pitch and needs to lead by example, we dissect every little thing about our system and our managers instead, I'm all for accountability, but it needs to be for both sides.

Some excellent points - sometimes a great coach like Vince Lombardi can take a bunch of farm boy, ragtag, bad news bears and turn them into winners like the Charlestown Chiefs. However, who made the Edmonton Oilers great? Gretzky, Messier and the boys or was it Glen Sather? Sather probably knew just enough to get the hell out of the way. Talented players, a bit of team chemistry and a so-so coach who stays out of the way can do well.... You don't always need Merlin the Magician as a coach... the players can make it happen too...

[los sonadores]

It's not one big thing, it's many things that can and should be done.

The very first thing I think supporters should have done and can still do is to get a concrete and inequivocal promise from Toronto FC that we will make the playoffs next year. Period. No wavering. No qualifications. If we don't make the playoffs, major heads should roll. 2 full seasons in charge should produce at least this much, unless of course we're already preparing excuses as to why we can't make 10th out of 18 teams? We speak about it here about it being a minimum result, but why don't we have a promise from the FO? There is no way to hold them accountable to that unless we get that promise out of them.

First of all, it's sport, right? So no one knows whose making the playoffs next year, we don't even know what will happen in the game on Saturday. Presumably that is why we watch football - because we don't know what will happen. And frankly blowing up the team again under Tom clueless Ansemi would be a severe form of punishment. So I don't want any promises of the kind, thank you.

[menefreghista]

So if TFC does not make the playoffs next year, what do you think would happen?

My guess is very little.

Either one of two things:

1. Mariner steps in

2. TFC finally poaches one of MLS' big names (Sigi, Arena, etc.)

The worst part of all of this is I can't stop feeling like Anselmi is our Peddie (particularly during the Babcock years).

[Oldtimer]

There is no wait and see. It's "let's excuse Winter's continued incompetence". Wait and see would at least acknowledge the good and the bad, but all I see are good and "let's not judge yet".

I already said what I thought was Winter's weak spots, and why I have some doubts about him (stubbornness related to tactics, if you'll recall). My doubts don't happen to coincide with DeRo being traded, but come from my own coaching experience.

However, what you are doing with trying to judge each and every little thing ignores the big picture, and that's a mistake.

I did the same thing with Kreis. I thought he was crap. He traded away the league MVP for an injured player (Esky, many here said that Mo really took advantage of that "lousy" coach). His team set new records in futility. There was no cohesion and the locker-room was dispirited and not with the coach. All this for a coach with no experience whatsoever with coaching. I ridiculed him endlessly on this very board the first two seasons.

I was wrong, and I learned from that experience.

What I missed was that Kreis was putting into place a culture in his club. It took time. Coincidentally, that is what was always missing here in Toronto. We always had a mish-mash of players, many of them with bad attitudes, who didn't stick together and didn't meld. There were divides in the dressing room between the players, who ended up in certain camps. You know that this is true.

Now, what I see that's positive about Winter is that he is actually building a culture here at TFC. That's the big picture. Look beyond the individual trades (Kreis made some boners along the way). Look beyond the individual games and the short-term record. If you stop looking at individual trees and look at the forest, the squad is going in the right direction. Not only do we have some very talented people (and Frings is the general that we never had, Koevs looks like he'll be great once fit, and for once the DP slots are being properly used), but it looks like we are starting to get some cohesion for once.

Preki tried to do this, but he never had the support of the higher-ups (he tried to get rid of DeRo too, BTW). It looks like Winter has just been given permission to do what he wants, and I like what I see in squad building. So...

negatives
tactical stubbornness
poor communication
old-school hard-nosed treatment of players (can turn them off)

positives
old-school hard-nosed treatment of players (doesn't coddle them)
building squad cohesion
a good DP strategy

So what do i see here? That there are both positive and negative elements (note that I am not including short-term results here).

Almost every coach in the MLS has shortcomings, just like almost every player. If they were perfect in every way, they wouldn't be here. The trick is to have someone whose positives outweigh their negatives. I don't believe that we should make the same mistake that I made with Kreis and focus on individual moves. We'll only know if his positives outweigh his negatives by the middle to the end of next year, by next year's record. At that time, those of us who are giving things some time will either say "yay" or "nay."

[ensco]

The way your excuses shaft our players by default makes me puke.

This board has come to be dominated by people who refelxively side with management over the players. Even simple facts get twisted out of recognition in support of management (ie Winter's slagging of Nana - note to anyone who wants to rehash that - don't bother.)

It did not used to be this way. It's sad.

[v00d00daddy]

The events stated as inarguable actually happened, thats a lot of excuses you got there.

The way your excuses shaft our players by default makes me puke.

'nuff

What a joke. You and your fucking biased "facts" are hilarious.

What "actually happened" and your spin/viewpoint on what happened are two completely different things. Can't you see that?

I shaft the players just like I shaft the coaching staff, and just like I shaft the FO. When I'm pissed at them I say it. If you sat next to me at BMO you'd know how I feel about the players and coaches.

Your arrogance and inability to acknowledge that people can see things differently than you is down right staggering.

You...ensco and Roogsy all have this fucking superiorty complex and it's a fucking joke.

You three alone have made several threads surrounding this team completely toxic and have turned me off the boards so many times.

The day has finally come to ignore all three of you because the alternative is to avoid this board all together. And I would miss it too much because there a lot of people here that I enjoy reading. Both negative and positive surrounding the team. I don't agree with everyone here but I respect their opinions because all they're doing is sharing them....not pontificating OPINION and eloquently/arrogantly sellling them as FACTS/TRUTH/REALITY

Enjoy the game tonight and I look forward to not having to read anything you have to say from this day forward.

[tiberius]

This board has come to be dominated by people who refelxively side with management over the players. Even simple facts get twisted out of recognition in support of management (ie Winter's slagging of Nana - note to anyone who wants to rehash that - don't bother.)

It did not used to be this way. It's sad.

You may be correct regarding the "pro-management" slant - I have not followed every thread, but I don't feel that vibe. Unless you are equating "on the fence about Winter" as reflex support of management...? I certainly think the majority are "reflexivly angry, sad, frustrated and totally fed up" If that is true, it is kinda hard for those same folk to come down on the side of management... As Roogsey pointed out a couple posts ago -It appears that the circumstances since 2006 have led us to the point today of us being powerless to do much of anything right now. We don't want to harp too much on the players, its a little early to make a judgement and axe the coaching team and we have posted ourselves to death about our general dislike for the FO. I am totally stumped as to what action to take in the short term to make it better...

[canadian_bhoy]

Getting rid of Gordon was a good thing. Yes, he scored goals, but he was too injury prone.

Look at who we've brought in this week. Look at the class of Frings compared to what we're used to seeing at BMO. Kovermans is a giant beast, he will tear MLS up.

And best of all, these guys are actual pros who don't need to be spoon fed instructions by their manager.

When I hear MLS players complain about running around and passing around too much in practice, I understand why our MLS players are so static and don't make off the ball runs.

Remember the all star game?
MLS = stand still, get ball, run, shoot/pass.
West Ham = constantly running to create space and open up opportunities to get the ball.

At the end of the day,
1) MLS players are pretty crap, so I don't really take their tactical criticisms very seriously.
2) TFC have made some serious additions to the club and we are in a much better position moving forward. If you can't get behind the team now, when can you?

We should have a special day on this board where no one is allowed to complain about anything. Total posts for the day would = 3

[Parkdale]

The day has finally come to ignore all three of you....

and that is why we have an ignore feature

I have a felling many people only see half of the posts in these threads.

[Beach_Red]

What I missed was that Kreis was putting into place a culture in his club. It took time. Coincidentally, that is what was always missing here in Toronto. We always had a mish-mash of players, many of them with bad attitudes, who didn't stick together and didn't meld. There were divides in the dressing room between the players, who ended up in certain camps. You know that this is true.

Now, what I see that's positive about Winter is that he is actually building a culture here at TFC. That's the big picture.

You may he right, but there are some big differences. Kreiss had a lot of experience with MLS and RSL, so did Lagerway and Checketts picked them personally. They're building a culture, yes, but it's RSL culture.

What we have here is a corporate-bought, pre-fab, foreign culture being imposed by mercenaries. It may work, we live in a corporate world, but it's only superficially what RSL is doing.

Until TFC have someone at the very top who actually runs the team - without input from the league or consultants or anyone else, the middle- management will always be on shaky ground.

[ManUtd4ever]

This board has come to be dominated by people who refelxively side with management over the players. Even simple facts get twisted out of recognition in support of management (ie Winter's slagging of Nana - note to anyone who wants to rehash that - don't bother.)

It did not used to be this way. It's sad.

What I find particularly sad is the incessant need to assign blame or choose sides in the first place, thus creating an adversarial tone to a thread that had contained objective and thoughtful analysis.

The one constant in this industry is player turnover. Circumstances frequently lead to personnel changes that don't necessarily villify management or players. In the majority of cases, it's simply a matter of things not working out, and both parties move on. I recognize that roster turnover has been dramatic throughout the existence of this franchise, but this year, it was necessary in light of the roster that Winter and Mariner inherited. In the process, a high profile player has made derogatory comments that were primarily directed at the previous regime, and one player made a comment off the record indicating that certain players were having diffculties grasping Winter's tactical approach in training, which was hardly a revelation.

As for Winter's comments regarding character, he made that statement after the multi player trade with San Jose and the acquisition of Dunfield. The comment could have been directed at any one of Nana, Gordon, Peterson, or the group of departed players in general for that matter. If you think it was unprofessional on his part, you're entitled to your opinion, but don't patronize the rest of us with condescending comments.

Quite frankly, (if we're being forced to choose sides) the majority of people on this forum were understandably critical of the team's lacklustre performance and lack of leadership on several occasions this season, and Winter's reference to the character of the club was justified.

[algieb]

remember winter was a youth coach at ajax producing players to go to next level,this maybe as far as he can go coaching wise,managing a first team is more than coaching , geting the best out off players (mediocre) motivating players playing to there ego,taking points with different tactics, afew off these he is verry lacking ,only time will tell next season is atrue test for his team hopefully we come out all guns firing