Gordon dishes on TFC, Winter

[Couchy81]

The skeptics are still waiting for the pro-Winter posters to provide compelling signs or reasons why they think Winter is doing a good job. Meanwhile evidence mounts that he's out of his depth.

At this point it's all discussion for the sake of discussion. I don't think the "pro-Winter" posters think he's a good coach. I think that is yet to be seen, the only argument being made is that it takes time and results cannot be fully analyzed in 6 months. Our record is clear indication of one of three things: poor players, poor coaching, a combination of the two. We can essentially wipe the first and third options from that list now that the team is mostly Winter's, so results going forward will be a better indication of his abilities.

[Heathen]

True enough.

Its funny. When you ask plain and simple questions...minus sarcasm and anything inflammatory you get no responses.

That goes all ways and has nothing to do with which side of the fence you happen to be on

[ManUtd4ever]

Nothing.

I expect our manager, any manager, to show some class and say what he needs to say in private.

Winter did not direct his comments at any particular individual, it was a general reference to the character of the locker room he inherited. Obviously, it was an indirect reference to one or more of the players that have been traded, but he didn't single anyone out, and perhaps there is some truth to his comments.

In any event, expectations regarding class and decorum should apply to both management and players alike. In my opinion, taking parting shots at a former employer is a serious indictment of one's character.

[TFCRegina]

Winter did not direct his comments at any particular individual, it was a general reference to the character of the locker room he inherited. Obviously, it was an indirect reference to one or more of the players that have been traded, but he didn't single anyone out, and perhaps there is some truth to his comments.

In any event, expectations regarding class and decorum should apply to both management and players alike. In my opinion, taking parting shots at a former employer is a serious indictment of one's character.

So it's ok when a coach does this, but when a player does it, it's sour grapes and classless?

[ManUtd4ever]

At this point it's all discussion for the sake of discussion. I don't think the "pro-Winter" posters think he's a good coach. I think that is yet to be seen, the only argument being made is that it takes time and results cannot be fully analyzed in 6 months. Our record is clear indication of one of three things: poor players, poor coaching, a combination of the two. We can essentially wipe the first and third options from that list now that the team is mostly Winter's, so results going forward will be a better indication of his abilities.

Bingo.

[Oldtimer]

At this point it's all discussion for the sake of discussion. I don't think the "pro-Winter" posters think he's a good coach. I think that is yet to be seen, the only argument being made is that it takes time and results cannot be fully analyzed in 6 months. Our record is clear indication of one of three things: poor players, poor coaching, a combination of the two. We can essentially wipe the first and third options from that list now that the team is mostly Winter's, so results going forward will be a better indication of his abilities.

... but it will take time for the team to meld.

Next year's results are what we can judge. And judge them we shall.

[PopePouri]

The skeptics are still waiting for the pro-Winter posters to provide compelling signs or reasons why they think Winter is doing a good job.

For us Winter-worshippers, there's not enough evidence to make a final judgement.

Winter (peace be upon Him) can probably be assessed after this transfer window and what results we're getting.

Meanwhile evidence mounts that he's out of his depth.

The evidence is relative to you and other skeptics.

[ManUtd4ever]

So it's ok when a coach does this, but when a player does it, it's sour grapes and classless?

No, I said it should apply both ways. Again, Winter didn't villify any specific individuals with his comments, he commented on the overall character in the locker room, as other coaches have in the past.

[backbeat]

... but it will take time for the team to meld.

Next year's results are what we can judge. And judge them we shall.

With this I completely agree and have said as much since the new management was announced. This year was rebuild and next year I too will look for results.

I am not into dumping the management team/coach every 6 months, they need some time to implement their style, which is this WHOLE year.

[backbeat]

I have had a lot of conversations with players that are with the club at the moment and many that are no longer here. I can honestly say that there is quite a difference between the European trained players and the North Amaerican based players. From they way they interact with fans to the basic knowledge of tatics and formations.

I can completely understand Winter's lack of patiences with the NA players. The majority of them have no clue what it takes to be a professional and how tatics are effective. A lot of them are athletes that weren't good enough for other sports and this is there fall back. They don't have a soccer IQ when talking tatics and a lot of them aren't willing to put in the time after practice to make themselves better players.

Winter and DeKlerk are very old school in their mentality and they expect a certain level of professionalism that these players lack. The whole we pass to much at practice is a fucking bullshit comment. Have the team still doesn't know how and if you been to practices in Europe this is a comon thing. Maybe not to the extent they do here are the majority of the players still can't grasp the basics of soccer how are they going to understand a highly technical formation and responsibilities?

With respect to throwing people under the bus. Maybe if the players who were acted like professionals and took what they did seriously Winter wouldn't make these comments. Preki took shots at players after he left, carver took shots while in charge and if I remeber correctly so did Cummins. So instead of always blaming the coach why can't it be the players with the ones that are the problem.

Rome wasn't built in a day, this club has flounder for 4 1/2 years. If we contstantly want to change the coach we will never have reach the goal we all want. This is now Winter's team and IMO we will see a dramatic difference the last half of the season. Do I like that we blew threw half a year no but in the winter transfer market it is alot harder to get players as they are probably with teams till June. So now it is Winter's time shine here is hoping for the best.

Also, I want to thank all the players that have left, for their contribution or lack there of for the most part and all if they back handed shots they take after they leave IMO just shows that lack of professionalism

^this

[ManUtd4ever]

... but it will take time for the team to meld.

Next year's results are what we can judge. And judge them we shall.

Agreed, but there are enough games left in the regular season as well as the CCL qualifier to gauge if the club is improving. Given the level of talent on the roster, if the team does not have a respectable record from this point forward, then there will be just cause for skepticism.

[Section 117]

What blows mind is that the moment a player says something derogatory against the coaching staff it is as if it is the truth and there is no way that they are wrong. A lot people hop on it and harp that it is all managements fault and give no possibility that the players are the ones that are useless. Why is that???


To people who want proof that Winter is a good coach. There isnt much at the moment, but when you are stuck with at best a roster filled with MLS rejects what do you expect unless you want Preki ball 11 guys defending all game. We need to judge Winter on th remaining games as it is now his team.

[backbeat]

Agreed, but there are enough games left in the regular season as well as the CCL qualifier to gauge if the club is improving. Given the level of talent on the roster, if the team does not have a respectable record from this point forward, then there will be just cause for skepticism.

As much as i agree that we should, and i think will, see better results the 2nd half I am still giving them the whole year. This team needs time to gel and there is still a lot of work to do on the back line. To me next year is where I believe the judgement of the work starts.

[Beach_Red]

What blows mind is that the moment a player says something derogatory against the coaching staff it is as if it is the truth and there is no way that they are wrong. A lot people hop on it and harp that it is all managements fault and give no possibility that the players are the ones that are useless. Why is that???

Because management is in charge, it's their game to control. In this case all that happened was a player who got traded said the team wasn't responding well to the coaches. That's all really. There isn't much point in calling them "MLS rejects," or "dumb north Americans" or the many other things they've been called in this thread. It's likely they're doing the best they can but they aren't in charge.

[kaos197O]

What blows mind is that the moment a player says something derogatory against the coaching staff it is as if it is the truth and there is no way that they are wrong. A lot people hop on it and harp that it is all managements fault and give no possibility that the players are the ones that are useless. Why is that???


To people who want proof that Winter is a good coach. There isnt much at the moment, but when you are stuck with at best a roster filled with MLS rejects what do you expect unless you want Preki ball 11 guys defending all game. We need to judge Winter on th remaining games as it is now his team.

What blows my mind is that such a high level of professionalism is expected of players making $40-$80 k's a year. I mean really. Many simple factory positions that require a grade 10 education are making that kind of money and I assure you that they have NO IDEA what being professional entails.

I get that Winter/Deklerk might want their players to have a "Football is Life" mentality and be absolute professionals at the same time, but at those wages and with little room for wage increases in a salary capped league, it's asking an awful lot. Especially when Winter throws them under the bus, publicly, once or twice, as he's done in the past with some of our players.

You reap what you sew and some of it has come back full circle now. Big deal. Hopefully Winter will learn from his mistakes and all of this will be a non issue next year. If he continues to what he has done, he will continue to get what he's gotten. It's simple.

I didn't read this entire thread and am not sure if Gordon has publicly stated anything like what's in the initial post, but I honestly don't see the big deal in him telling a fan the truth about how he felt about his time here and his thoughts of our coach. Bitter or not, he should be able to have a life and be able to speak freely about his feelings on a situation. What's the big deal?

[Section 117]

I'm sorry whether you make $17,000 or $200,000 or whatever. It doesn't give the players to act unprofessionaly. It is their bloody job, they don't like it they can go fuck off amd find a new career. And yes I stand by the MLS reject comment. How many players on our roster would start for any other team in this league not any other league this league.

Beach you didn't answer the question just by stating they are management. The moral high ground some people hold the FO to should apply to the players as well. I

[pekduck]

I'm sorry whether you make $17,000 or $200,000 or whatever. It doesn't give the players to act unprofessionaly. It is their bloody job, they don't like it they can go fuck off amd find a new career. And yes I stand by the MLS reject comment. How many players on our roster would start for any other team in this league not any other league this league.

Beach you didn't answer the question just by stating they are management. The moral high ground some people hold the FO to should apply to the players as well. I

totally agree

if someone at workplace gives the excuse of low pay as a reason of not delivering quality, i'd fire that person on the spot

[ensco]

117, What's interesting is that so many of our ex players do it. That makes it noteworthy. Also, I believe Gordon because we look confused out there.

Maybe when Winter has beaten more the one nonexpansion team, I'll listen more.

Also your premise is wrong. The posts are running 5 to 1 for Winter anyway. Enjoy.

[Beach_Red]

I'm sorry whether you make $17,000 or $200,000 or whatever. It doesn't give the players to act unprofessionaly. It is their bloody job, they don't like it they can go fuck off amd find a new career. And yes I stand by the MLS reject comment. How many players on our roster would start for any other team in this league not any other league this league.

Beach you didn't answer the question just by stating they are management. The moral high ground some people hold the FO to should apply to the players as well. I

It's not a question of morality, it's about building a winning team. This thread started because someone bumped into a former player and had a conversation. My take was that it was pleasant and the player was explaining why he thought the team was having trouble - there were communications issues between the players and the coaches. And I feel if that's the case it's up to the coaches to work on it and help this team win. They are in charge.

The receiving end of the communication can't make it clearer.

[Brooker]

What blows my mind is that such a high level of professionalism is expected of players making $40-$80 k's a year.

So when does one have to start acting professional? When they make 200k? 500k? 1 million? 5 million?

I had no idea acting professional was only expected if you're rich.

[kaos197O]

I'm sorry whether you make $17,000 or $200,000 or whatever. It doesn't give the players to act unprofessionaly. It is their bloody job, they don't like it they can go fuck off amd find a new career. And yes I stand by the MLS reject comment. How many players on our roster would start for any other team in this league not any other league this league.

Beach you didn't answer the question just by stating they are management. The moral high ground some people hold the FO to should apply to the players as well. I

Just because you are unprofessional doesn't mean that you need to get a new job. We just took on 2 players that the Columbus FO were having a great deal of trouble with. some could say the are/were unprofessional. Now they have a clean slate. Should we not have signed them?

As for Winter, he says some of his players are not good enough, publicly.....some players say that Winter is not good enough, publicly.......so if the players are unprofessional, so too must be Winter. NO?

There is a saying that change needs to happen at the top and then trickle down......lead by example.....that's how you earn the respect of your staff. Not sure that's really happening here yet.

BTW.....I have met some very productive and effective employees that are completely unprofessional. While it is taxing to manage them, they are a great asset if one can manage them effectively.

[Pookie]

117, What's interesting is that so many of our ex players do it.

Many had specific comments about Mo. He's gone.

As for the departed under Winter, DeRo... yeah, not putting much stock in that fellow's comments. His baggage is well known through the league.

We have a couple of others, one in a contract dispute and one who made some comments to a guy in an airport which may or may not be taken out of context.

[kaos197O]

So when does one have to start acting professional? When they make 200k? 500k? 1 million? 5 million?

I had no idea acting professional was only expected if you're rich.

okay....you got me there . I don't know why, but I do have higher expectations of those who make more and have more power than the rest. I guess, since we live in a world that's all about equality, I should hold every single person to the same high standards that I would hold the PM to.

[Pookie]

The skeptics are still waiting for the pro-Winter posters to provide compelling signs or reasons why they think Winter is doing a good job.

... Skeptical Hippo is skeptical that the skeptics are really true skeptics

[BFin]

This thread is the last straw...

[v00d00daddy]

That goes all ways and has nothing to do with which side of the fence you happen to be on

Absolutely.

[v00d00daddy]

Because management is in charge, it's their game to control. In this case all that happened was a player who got traded said the team wasn't responding well to the coaches. That's all really. There isn't much point in calling them "MLS rejects," or "dumb north Americans" or the many other things they've been called in this thread. It's likely they're doing the best they can but they aren't in charge.

Actually...I think its more accurate to say that it was suggested that "some" of the team weren't responding well to the coaches.

[Beach_Red]

Actually...I think its more accurate to say that it was suggested that "some" of the team weren't responding well to the coaches.

Yes, that's more accurate.

[v00d00daddy]

It's not a question of morality, it's about building a winning team. This thread started because someone bumped into a former player and had a conversation. My take was that it was pleasant and the player was explaining why he thought the team was having trouble - there were communications issues between the players and the coaches. And I feel if that's the case it's up to the coaches to work on it and help this team win. They are in charge.

The receiving end of the communication can't make it clearer.

And some might suggest that (some of) the receiving end are incapable of comprehension.

Plainly put. There were, and continue to be, players on this team that simply don't have the football brains to learn what Winter and de Klerk are trying to teach them. Add to that the fact that some don't have the technical ability to apply what they've learned, even if they understand it and you get a bunch of players shipped out in favour of other players who can hopefully succeed.

Unfortunately the players shipped out are nice guys and CMNT players and so we feel the need to defend them...but at the end of the day they're not up to snuff. Maybe some, like Gordon, are up to snuff but there is just no room for them. It happens.

The jury is still out on whether or not Winter has it tactically or if he can impart his knowledge on to other players but I don't think its a stretch to say he knows when he sees a player with talent and he knows when fundamentals are lacking.

Fuck...I can see it from watching one open practice.

[Beach_Red]

^ Yes, this is why I think they've changed course, a little. The long-range plan is likely still in place but the reality that 22 places on an MLS roster must be filled by domestic players has kicked in and is being dealt with.