Gordon dishes on TFC, Winter

[__wowza]

It is ridiculous not to believe gordon, because the evidence for what hes saying is staring you in the face and has been for the whole season.

its ridiculous to suggest he concocted this story out of bitterness and decided to impart it to some random guy at a train station, and the real reason the team play awkward, below their abilities and look confused has nothing to do with winter, but more to do with alan gordon's attitude.

Given that Gordon definitely wasnt the problem in the team, and doesnt have any excuses to make for himself, I think its more than ridiculous to doubt him.

its not a matter of the story being a bitter one, its just a persons opinion. what one person says isnt necessarily what everyone else hears. the best proof i have, as to why we needed better players came from this:

"He said they do a lot of passing drills in practice, more than he's ever seen"

if you focus on passing so much, how come the same plays so consistently give the ball away? is that the coaches fault? or is he understanding that we routinely give the ball away and trying to fix it? if he is trying to fix it, why do the same players commit the same mistakes?

[Ageroo]

1. Who's worshipping Winter?

2. What's wrong with saying you don't like a players character?

[Pookie]

Because I don't think they have any replacements lined up.

And so once again we'd be waiting for months for some consultant to find a suitable replacement.

What's waiting a few months when one guy can turn things around overnight? Overnight turnarounds are the baseline standard after all.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Well, the way I see it Winter and De Klerk were brought in the run the senior team and the develop academy, with the help of Mariner to work the ins and outs of MLS.

I hardly see the point of Winter developing an academy under one system but for the players to graduate to a senior side playing another. It's all happening at the same time under the same supervisor out of necessity.

Ultimately I'd agree - that the academy will be managed by someone other than the senior team's manager, but it would still all have to be under the watchful eye of a director.

it has been suggested for a bit that De Klerk is really the head coach and has been for a bit

[menefreghista]

What's waiting a few months when one guy can turn things around overnight? Overnight turnarounds are the baseline standard after all.

I wasn't expecting TFC to win the MLS Cup this season. But I also wasn't expecting TFC to be worse than its season 1 team.

[Beach_Red]

No MLS player should ever utter a statement about the quality of someone else.

Maybe if players in MLS weren't such a bunch of hacks, they'd be able execute the system better. Maybe Winter is giving these guys too much credit and doesn't realize they're too dumb to play the system.

Hey come on, just because they couldn't make the basketball team or the baseball team or the football team or the track team or even the hockey team and had to end up on the soccer team in America is no reason to call them dumb. They've been humiliated enough .

[jloome]

At this point in time, it's illogical to come to any conclusions one way or another.

I haven't read a single post declaring Winter as the savior of this franchise, yet you and a few others are already certain that his long term vision and short term plan are destined to fail. If 90 minutes of of football is all you require to evaluate the rebuilt roster, I envy your sense of intuitiveness.

I genuinely respect your opinion, but I don't understand the incessant need to convince everyone else that patience is not required, or the notion that it is irrational to have faith in a plan that hasn't even been given a fair chance to come to fruition.

Inevitably, you may be right, but can we observe the new roster for a few games first?

Well said. The aggressive lobbying is incessant and irritating to the extreme. The only people lowering the bar to the immediate are the same four or five naysayers, a couple of whom started seeding doubt the day he got here.

My instinct says they may well be right. But it's brutally unfair to draw the conclusion at this point that the man has failed because he couldn't, essentially, bleed North American soccer out of an MLS team in a few months.

[jloome]

My doubts about Winter at this point mainly relate to tactical decisions, and I don't really have an issue with MLS lifers who don't get what Winter is teaching (i.e. I fall into theory #2, the players are crap). The Dutch have a reputation of being stubborn, and while not wanting to typecast, Winter largely fits the stereotype: you're going to play football his way, he's not going to change, or you're gone.

I actually don't have a problem with that as far as the players go. The players at this club have been coddled too much, to the point that (as one article put it) they treat it more like a pastime than a job. Preki was supposed to change all that, but he was forced out by a conspiracy of the usual suspects among the players (the same bunch that got rid of Dale Mitchell as CMNT coach) and some assistant coaches who wanted his job. The culture didn't change. Ship 'em all out, if you have to, I say.

Where I have a problem with Winter's stubborness is that he will always play the same Ajax formation, even when an amateur coach like myself can see that a different formation would work better. Now (as one person put it) Winter has forgotten more about football than all of this board knows put together, but his stubborness keeps him from some sensible changes. Whether this will keep him from forming a winning team (in practice, only about 20% of a team's performance is due to the coach, according to Paul James, the rest is squad quality) remains to be seen.

From what we know of those involved, this seems the most realistic scenario. He may also not be able to motivate; even if you get players smart enough to play the system there are days when they need a push, although Bob De Klerk seems pretty positive at that end.

[Whoop]

I have yet to see "cult worship" status here, just people willing to give him some rope. You want to use the rope to hang him already, that's just the difference.

As far as time unemployed, let's just take at random Portsmouth's coach, Stuart Gray. Not a big name like a Sir Alex, so that is the appropriate level to compare with MLS.

He was unemployed for nearly a year between being sacked at Southampton, and taking over at Aston Villa in a caretaker role in 2002. Then he filled in with other assistant coaching and temporary positions and didn't return to first team coaching until 2007.

But he was never out of work for more than a few months.

Most coaches when the lose a job, especially at the lower ranks, will accept an assistant coach's position in order to "stay in the game" and to wait for another opportunity at a head coaching position.

Happens in every sport at every level. The longer you stay out of the game the easier you are forgotten.

I guarantee you'll see more desperation from Winter especially in the off-season if things don't go well down the stretch. Why? He's going to need results next season in order to keep his job because if he doesn't odds of him getting a 1st division coaching job are slim.

[Pookie]

^ re: oldtimer and the players being coddled too much

A player who is no longer here commented to me at the end of last season that one of the reasons for their disappointing seasons was that "a number of the guys enjoyed living the Toronto nightlife a little too much." He was hoping that with changes (players and coaches) that this issue would be addressed.

I wish this particular player all the best and thank him for speaking directly with my son regarding his own soccer development.

[jloome]

I also think that some fans have so much faith invested in Winter to turn this team around that they can't fathom he might have been a mistake.

And you base this on what? No one here is defending the job he's done so far, they're just saying it's premature to fire him.

[Whoop]

I don't think anyone is advocating firing him.

But it will be interesting to see next season if he stays the course or starts to make changes to save his bacon.

[menefreghista]

And you base this on what? No one here is defending the job he's done so far, they're just saying it's premature to fire him.

Based on comments on this forum.

I'm not cataloging them for you. But there are a lot of people who over-rate Winter's resume. Check the early part of this thread if you want.

[menefreghista]

But it will be interesting to see next season if he stays the course or starts to make changes to save his bacon.

As Beach Red has mentioned, I think they already have changed the course.

[jloome]

Based on comments on this forum.

I'm not cataloging them for you. But there are a lot of people who over-rate Winter's resume. Check the early part of this thread if you want.

Ad hominems are easy but also valueless. Didn't you just say you felt you had the right to criticize Winter's performance?

What does his resume at Ajax or fans' opinions of him, which you've basically misstated anyway, have to do with his performance?

[rocker]

And you base this on what? No one here is defending the job he's done so far, they're just saying it's premature to fire him.

Exactly!

Winter may turn out to be an abject failure. He may turn out to be a great success. I would never say right now, after he's had 6 months on the job, that either one of these will come true. I hold the position that we must wait to see the truth of either statement.

I also argue that some of the coaches that get a lot of praise did not get the job done in 6 months. Arena didn't in LA (and Arena failed in NY). Hyndman didn't in Dallas. Kreis didn't in RSL. Schmidt didn't in Columbus. But those coaches didn't have the rabid fanbase of TFC watching every move and the baggage that goes with it.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I dont see evidence of them 'changing the course'
I see they brought in new players.
I dont see how JK would have wanted them to keep the old players or would have put 'his vision' for Winter to follow. Wouldnt make sense IMO.

JK was hired as a consultant to find a coach (or coaches) to supplement a certain style. He did that and he helped bring in a player (Frings) as well, outside of that theres nothing saying that he had a blueprint they needed to follow and they have just broken from his blue print.

[Pookie]

^ re: defending the job he's done

I'd go on record as saying that given the talent level of the team up until the transfer window, he has done an ok job relative to expectations.

Specifically, he had a bottom table team that got hammered by the top clubs, took some points away from the mid table teams and had a 2-1-3 record against bottom table teams. About what you'd expect given the talent level.

Now, as of July 15th, we look to have improved our roster and have appeared to move into the mid-table with respect to talent. I would therefore expect our record against lower and mid-table teams to be improved and for us to compete for wins/draws against top table teams.

I do think it is way too early to pull the plug. Part of his job, along with Mariner is player development and acquisition. He seems to have done well at transforming the roster to this point. Now, the results need to come over time to match what he's done on paper.

[BFin]

1. Who's worshipping Winter?

2. What's wrong with saying you don't like a players character?

You know better than to expect a response about a legitimate question.

[TFCin110]

I dunno. I just don't know of any team on this planet that judges their head coach of the senior team by the results or talent produced by the Academy and I don't see why we should be the first.

As for time...I have never disagreed that time is necessary to get to the ultimate results, whether it be the MLS Cup or Supporter's Shield or other type of notable success. But that is the fallacy in the accusation against those of us on this side of the opinion. None of us are asking for that in this first year, not even in the 2nd year. Our argument is quite simply that regardless of the rebuild, any team that plays this poorly, that gets outscored this much, that has this much trouble scoring, that has this much drama and contract squabbling...that a team like that isn't in the shape it is in because of the rebuild. That is a sign of poor management and no team in MLS that has been rebuilt properly went through this kind of incompetence for this long a period of time.

7 months after his hiring, this team got beat 5-0 and 2-0 in consecutive weeks. It got beat 6-2 the month before. Those results may...MAY have been understandable in the first few weeks of his regime, but not after 2.5 months of preseason, an entire NCC tournament and 21 weeks of regular season. On most professional clubs, the manager would have been sacked by now. The case is even more condemning when you factor in issues like parity, cap space and a practically full stadium.

Now given these facts...for me to have faith and give Winter "time" I'd need something to balance the scales. It has been a fruitless endeavour to get someone to give us something to grasp and hold on to in order to believe in the newly minted saviour. All we get is this argument of "time". You could give me 10 years and I won't get this club to where it needs to be. What makes Winter deserving of any time other than Anselmi's decision to hire him?

I don't know of another club in the worl who's first team manager was hired based on his insistence that resultswould be predicated on the ability to establish a system within then academy. This is a unique situation and my comment was based on our situation rather than a blanket statement about academies throughout the world. But surely you can see how the manager is the one calling the shots regading how the academy is to be brought up. So indirectly, the first manager is responsible for the academy. One of Alex Ferguson's biggest complaints was the non-existence of an academy under Ron Atkinson. He didn't put in the time to recruit the talent and give the academy any sort of direction.

[Beach_Red]

I dont see evidence of them 'changing the course'
I see they brought in new players.
I dont see how JK would have wanted them to keep the old players or would have put 'his vision' for Winter to follow. Wouldnt make sense IMO.

JK was hired as a consultant to find a coach (or coaches) to supplement a certain style. He did that and he helped bring in a player (Frings) as well, outside of that theres nothing saying that he had a blueprint they needed to follow and they have just broken from his blue print.

I'm basing it a little on the history of TFC and MLSE and on Winter's statement tjat now he was goimg to start trading players. Between the time the last coach and GM were fired and these ones were hired were guys negotiating conracts and making trades who are still here. And there's a guy running the team (Anselmi) who has no idea about the sport and brought in a consultant and then the coach they hired was inexperienced and the team started the season playing very poorly. It just seemed like a bad situation with no one really stepping up and being in charge until Winter a couple weeks ago. Which, again, given the situation, was natural he'd have to wait until he really had a feel for the place. Office politics are tough and MLSE has always seemed to have more than its share of divided loyalties, internal strife and power struggles. It just doesn't seem a straightforward place.

And, frankly, in many ways it reminds of the office politics of the TV shows and movie sets I've worked on where sometimes the producer is in charge, sometimes the director and sometimes the star really runs things. Never straightforward, but what ego-filled organization full of power struggles wheree people get fired all the time ever is?

[Oldtimer]

I

At the same time I do think MLSE/TFC should be making a list of possible replacements in the background. You never know when a team is this bad.

You have to look no further than Mariner. That is the genius of this set-up. Klinsmann hedged the bets.

[Oldtimer]

^ You know Beach Red might possibly be onto something with the "who's in charge?"
I'm starting to be convinced.

[Oldtimer]

Exactly!

Winter may turn out to be an abject failure. He may turn out to be a great success. I would never say right now, after he's had 6 months on the job, that either one of these will come true. I hold the position that we must wait to see the truth of either statement.

I also argue that some of the coaches that get a lot of praise did not get the job done in 6 months. Arena didn't in LA (and Arena failed in NY). Hyndman didn't in Dallas. Kreis didn't in RSL. Schmidt didn't in Columbus. But those coaches didn't have the rabid fanbase of TFC watching every move and the baggage that goes with it.

Agreed, well put.

[Section 117]

I have had a lot of conversations with players that are with the club at the moment and many that are no longer here. I can honestly say that there is quite a difference between the European trained players and the North Amaerican based players. From they way they interact with fans to the basic knowledge of tatics and formations.

I can completely understand Winter's lack of patiences with the NA players. The majority of them have no clue what it takes to be a professional and how tatics are effective. A lot of them are athletes that weren't good enough for other sports and this is there fall back. They don't have a soccer IQ when talking tatics and a lot of them aren't willing to put in the time after practice to make themselves better players.

Winter and DeKlerk are very old school in their mentality and they expect a certain level of professionalism that these players lack. The whole we pass to much at practice is a fucking bullshit comment. Have the team still doesn't know how and if you been to practices in Europe this is a comon thing. Maybe not to the extent they do here are the majority of the players still can't grasp the basics of soccer how are they going to understand a highly technical formation and responsibilities?

With respect to throwing people under the bus. Maybe if the players who were acted like professionals and took what they did seriously Winter wouldn't make these comments. Preki took shots at players after he left, carver took shots while in charge and if I remeber correctly so did Cummins. So instead of always blaming the coach why can't it be the players with the ones that are the problem.

Rome wasn't built in a day, this club has flounder for 4 1/2 years. If we contstantly want to change the coach we will never have reach the goal we all want. This is now Winter's team and IMO we will see a dramatic difference the last half of the season. Do I like that we blew threw half a year no but in the winter transfer market it is alot harder to get players as they are probably with teams till June. So now it is Winter's time shine here is hoping for the best.

Also, I want to thank all the players that have left, for their contribution or lack there of for the most part and all if they back handed shots they take after they leave IMO just shows that lack of professionalism

[pekduck]

I have had a lot of conversations with players that are with the club at the moment and many that are no longer here. I can honestly say that there is quite a difference between the European trained players and the North Amaerican based players. From they way they interact with fans to the basic knowledge of tatics and formations.

I can completely understand Winter's lack of patiences with the NA players. The majority of them have no clue what it takes to be a professional and how tatics are effective. A lot of them are athletes that weren't good enough for other sports and this is there fall back. They don't have a soccer IQ when talking tatics and a lot of them aren't willing to put in the time after practice to make themselves better players.

Winter and DeKlerk are very old school in their mentality and they expect a certain level of professionalism that these players lack. The whole we pass to much at practice is a fucking bullshit comment. Have the team still doesn't know how and if you been to practices in Europe this is a comon thing. Maybe not to the extent they do here are the majority of the players still can't grasp the basics of soccer how are they going to understand a highly technical formation and responsibilities?

With respect to throwing people under the bus. Maybe if the players who were acted like professionals and took what they did seriously Winter wouldn't make these comments. Preki took shots at players after he left, carver took shots while in charge and if I remeber correctly so did Cummins. So instead of always blaming the coach why can't it be the players with the ones that are the problem.

Rome wasn't built in a day, this club has flounder for 4 1/2 years. If we contstantly want to change the coach we will never have reach the goal we all want. This is now Winter's team and IMO we will see a dramatic difference the last half of the season. Do I like that we blew threw half a year no but in the winter transfer market it is alot harder to get players as they are probably with teams till June. So now it is Winter's time shine here is hoping for the best.

Also, I want to thank all the players that have left, for their contribution or lack there of for the most part and all if they back handed shots they take after they leave IMO just shows that lack of professionalism

finally a post i agree with

[v00d00daddy]

You know better than to expect a response about a legitimate question.

True enough.

Its funny. When you ask plain and simple questions...minus sarcasm and anything inflammatory you get no responses.

[ensco]

True enough.

Its funny. When you ask plain and simple questions...minus sarcasm and anything inflammatory you get no responses.

Or people could just be busy for a couple of hours.

[ensco]

2. What's wrong with saying you don't like a players character?

Nothing.

I expect our manager, any manager, to show some class and say what he needs to say in private.

[menefreghista]

True enough.

Its funny. When you ask plain and simple questions...minus sarcasm and anything inflammatory you get no responses.

I answered the first question and your second didn't concern me.

The skeptics are still waiting for the pro-Winter posters to provide compelling signs or reasons why they think Winter is doing a good job. Meanwhile evidence mounts that he's out of his depth.