Gordon dishes on TFC, Winter

[mightydrm]

I have read several well articulated posts regarding the modus operandi of the current regime that are rational as well as objective.

It seems like the majority support the long term implications of the organizational infrastructure that Winter and Co. are trying to implement, and acknowledge that the recent roster acquistions were an attempt to achieve a modicum of success in the short term.

As for the grandiose statements declaring Winter and his current regime an abject failure, it's encouraging to note that the majority are taking those opinions with a grain of salt.

I concur with the majority, and I will observe the club's performance over the next several weeks before making any bold proclamations.

completely agree with this.

[ensco]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall Winter making derogatory comments about Nana after the trade. I recall him stating that Nana had asked for a trade following Cann's injury, but nothing inflammatory. In fact, I don't recall Winter saying anything derogatory about any of the players that have departed.

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/20...s-tfc-will-win

That had not been the case and led to the departures of former captain Dwayne De Rosario and, more recently, his close friend and Day One Red, Nana Attakora, who Winter said had asked to be dealt.

“The character was not the kind I wanted,” Winter said.

[Toronto_Bhoy]

Winter was never the number 2 for the senior Ajax squad. He was the assistant to the top youth team (Ajax A1) and later the head coach of the second youth team (Ajax A2).

And just so it doesn't get lost again. He was unemployed for about 18 months before TFC hired him.

Thanks for clarifying and reinforcing my point on Winters resume, menefreghista

No. Its a totally different job.

One is developing talent, trying to get them into the first team. The other is trying to win games in a professional league.

Exactly. European academies are also sources of revenue, many are puppy mills. If you have ManU, Barca or AC Malin on your CV your value increases. Transfer fees and knock ons are big business.

[UltraFootyKWC]

I, just like most people here want results, but we knew this was going to take some time. It's only been 4 or 5 months. Give the guy some time to do his job. Don't get me wrong, I'm just as frustrated with the way our team looks on the pitch most nights, but Winter is still putting the pieces together. The last thing we need is yet another coaching change. We just need to find the players with the right skill sets that can actually play.

Also, see below V V V, if you haven't signed up for the summer tournament get on a team and get registered and start raising some money for a great cause. Let's turn our frustrations with this team in to something positive for the community.

Feel free to PM me, or see the thread link below for a list of team captains.

[menefreghista]

The last thing we need is yet another coaching change.

The results have been so bad that we have to be prepared for the fact that he may just leave on his own.

[ManUtd4ever]

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/20...s-tfc-will-win

That had not been the case and led to the departures of former captain Dwayne De Rosario and, more recently, his close friend and Day One Red, Nana Attakora, who Winter said had asked to be dealt.

“The character was not the kind I wanted,” Winter said.

In fairness, that statement is open to interpretation. Obviously, Winter thought highly enough of Nana to offer him a contract extension earlier in the season. Perhaps Nana's refusal to commit to the organization is what led Winter to make those comments.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

^ Beach Red (or Beechy as he liked to be called... copyright Simpsons)

I'm not sold on the concept that they have changed gears but I'm not sure that they haven't either.

I have to go with the idea that Winter is sticking to a plan. The plan that was likely developed/advised by JK and the plan that he was hired to implement.

- the academy kids are learning it (system and technical)
- the first team is working on it
- players that couldn't grasp it have been moved out in favour of players they say can grasp it

The only real change in variables vs the start of the season seems to be the age of the players brought in. Our DPs are over 30. The others are all over 26.

It could be that the DPs are being used partly to assist with the technical and system learnings (which apparently wasn't going so well, according to Gordon) and partly to improve the competitiveness of the team now.

But they haven't parted with really young players like Plata, Henry, Cordon, etc which doesn't fit with the idea of "win now damn the future."

To be practical though. They have 2 1/2 years on a contract. Clearly, they need results before that contract expires. It would be unfair of us not to assume that isn't a factor.

very well said.

[UltraFootyKWC]

The results have been so bad that we have to be prepared for the fact that he may just leave on his own.

Fair enough. That's the only way I could see it going down though.

[menefreghista]

Thanks for clarifying and reinforcing my point on Winters resume, menefreghista

There is quite a bit of myth making about Winter. I bet some people believe he quit his job at Ajax to come here. They probably have no idea he went 18 months unemployed.

I also think that some fans have so much faith invested in Winter to turn this team around that they can't fathom he might have been a mistake.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/20...s-tfc-will-win

That had not been the case and led to the departures of former captain Dwayne De Rosario and, more recently, his close friend and Day One Red, Nana Attakora, who Winter said had asked to be dealt.

“The character was not the kind I wanted,” Winter said.

He doesnt want someone to stay who wants to be traded?
Thats derogatory?

[menefreghista]

Fair enough. That's the only way I could see it going down though.

I think the only thing keeping him here up to now is that he has no other prospects for work.

But its not uncommon in this sport for coaches to 'mutually agree' to leave a club with results as bad as TFC's.

[ensco]

In fairness, that statement is open to interpretation. Obviously, Winter thought highly enough of Nana to offer him a contract extension earlier in the season. Perhaps Nana's refusal to commit to the organization is what led Winter to make those comments.

In fairness, no it isn't. That's about as far from "We were trying to work something out but couldn't, we thank him for all his contributions to TFC and wish him well" as you can get.

[TOBOR !]

...
I concur with the majority, and I will observe the club's performance over the next several weeks before making any bold proclamations.

Several weeks ?

I don't think Winter can be rated on the performance of the senior team until such a time when we see the fruition of the academy program.

Hopefully his employers see the bigger picture and realise that for the time being any change made to the senior squad is but a band-aid solution until the cure is ready (in the form of a fully-formed and thriving academy).

The problem is that the senior level side is the one that people are paying to see, the one that is dysfuntional, and the one that Winter is being judged on by the masses (including his own squad - but they can't see the forest for the trees).

[GeorgeBest]

In fairness, that statement is open to interpretation. Obviously, Winter thought highly enough of Nana to offer him a contract extension earlier in the season. Perhaps Nana's refusal to commit to the organization is what led Winter to make those comments.

The two sides could not reach commercial terms on a contract, not sure that justifies it.

[Wooster_TFC]

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/07/20...s-tfc-will-win

That had not been the case and led to the departures of former captain Dwayne De Rosario and, more recently, his close friend and Day One Red, Nana Attakora, who Winter said had asked to be dealt.

“The character was not the kind I wanted,” Winter said.

Where in that article does it state that Winter actually said that in relation to DeRo and Nana though? For all we know due to the paraphrasing and past mis-quotes in the media, that was in reference to ALL the trades he's made over the last little while.

He says "the character" which, in my opinion, implies the group, not a specific individual.

[ensco]

Where in that article does it state that Winter actually said that in relation to DeRo and Nana though? For all we know due to the paraphrasing and past mis-quotes in the media, that was in reference to ALL the trades he's made over the last little while.

He says "the character" which, in my opinion, implies the group, not a specific individual.

You have seriously got to be kidding.

What has Winter done to deserve this kind of protection from people?

[Beach_Red]

Several weeks ?

I don't think Winter can be rated on the performance of the senior team until such a time when we see the fruition of the academy program.

Hopefully his employers see the bigger picture and realise that for the time being any change made to the senior squad is but a band-aid solution until the cure is ready (in the form of a fully-formed and thriving academy).

The problem is that the senior level side is the one that people are paying to see, the one that is dysfuntional, and the one that Winter is being judged on by the masses (including his own squad - but they can't see the forest for the trees).

How many academy players do you expect will be playing for TFC in five years? And how many years do you expect the best ones will stay in MLS?

And why put the same guy (one with so little experience, frankly) in charge of both building the academy and the senior team? That's the tree we see. If Winter had been brought in (even 18 months removed) from Ajax academy to organize and operate the TFC academy and someone else (Dichio? Carl Robinson?) put in charge of the senior team and was trying to win some games now, in the meantime as it were, people would likely have been thrilled.

[Oldtimer]

I think the only thing keeping him here up to now is that he has no other prospects for work.

Yeah, he's an unemployed bum who couldn't find a job at McD's, so he came here. You have no basis whatever for saying that. I'm sure he could coach somewhere in the Netherlands, although not necessarily a first league first team.

It's not at all unusual in the coaching world for coaches to be out of work for a year or more at a time. It's no reflection at all on their ability. That's why you usually give them a contract for longer than their actual trial period. That extra money forms their severance. You also renew the contract when there is actually a year or more left on the old one.

You are making it out to be much more significant than it actually is.

[menefreghista]

You are making it out to be much more significant than it actually is.

The fact the guy was unemployed for 18 months before TFC hired him is pretty significant. Especially considering the cult worship status that some are giving him.

That is actually a long time to be unemployed as a coach in this sport.

[Oldtimer]

The fact the guy was unemployed for 18 months before TFC hired him is pretty significant. Especially considering the cult worship status that some are giving him.

That is actually a long time to be unemployed as a coach in this sport.

I have yet to see "cult worship" status here, just people willing to give him some rope. You want to use the rope to hang him already, that's just the difference.

As far as time unemployed, let's just take at random Portsmouth's coach, Stuart Gray. Not a big name like a Sir Alex, so that is the appropriate level to compare with MLS.

He was unemployed for nearly a year between being sacked at Southampton, and taking over at Aston Villa in a caretaker role in 2002. Then he filled in with other assistant coaching and temporary positions and didn't return to first team coaching until 2007.

[TOBOR !]

How many academy players do you expect will be playing for TFC in five years? And how many years do you expect the best ones will stay in MLS?

And why put the same guy (one with so little experience, frankly) in charge of both building the academy and the senior team? That's the tree we see. If Winter had been brought in (even 18 months removed) from Ajax academy to organize and operate the TFC academy and someone else (Dichio? Carl Robinson?) put in charge of the senior team and was trying to win some games now, in the meantime as it were, people would likely have been thrilled.

Well, the way I see it Winter and De Klerk were brought in the run the senior team and the develop academy, with the help of Mariner to work the ins and outs of MLS.

I hardly see the point of Winter developing an academy under one system but for the players to graduate to a senior side playing another. It's all happening at the same time under the same supervisor out of necessity.

Ultimately I'd agree - that the academy will be managed by someone other than the senior team's manager, but it would still all have to be under the watchful eye of a director.

[Wooster_TFC]

You have seriously got to be kidding.

What has Winter done to deserve this kind of protection from people?

And what has the Sun done to deserve the kind of utter acceptance from you? Unless those comments were directly in a quote about Nana, or were lead into with "When asked about Attakora", I tend to take them with a grain of salt, especially when they come from a smut newspaper like the Sun.

Sure, he could have been referring to Nana and Dero, but when a newspaper doesn't directly quote that, you can't believe that the speaker is referring to one person.

[menefreghista]

I have yet to see "cult worship" status here, just people willing to give him some rope. You want to use the rope to hang him already, that's just the difference.

I'm more worried that he's going to hang himself at this point.

I've learned to live with the fact that we are stuck with him for the foreseeable future. That doesn't mean I can't criticize his performance. I would love to see the signs of hope that others see.

At the same time I do think MLSE/TFC should be making a list of possible replacements in the background. You never know when a team is this bad. Just look at what happened to the Canadian women today.

[v00d00daddy]

1. Who's worshipping Winter?

2. What's wrong with saying you don't like a players character?

[Pookie]

I'm more worried that he's going to hang himself at this point.

...

At the same time I do think MLSE/TFC should be making a list of possible replacements in the background.

Why would you be worried about an outcome that you are advocating for?

[menefreghista]

Why would you be worried about an outcome that you are advocating for?

Because I don't think they have any replacements lined up.

And so once again we'd be waiting for months for some consultant to find a suitable replacement.

[nickio]

The truth is our wishes, whether to let Winter go or let him stay, are based mostly on emotions and the little mainstream media that comes through. Some of which is not even true, or half-true.

Noone really knows what actually goes on in the team. If he can't get results with a good, synchronized, healthy team- such as expected next year, then we'll know he is not cutting it as the coach. Right now though, the squad is just barely good on paper, they couldn't be anymore unsynchronized, and we're still quiet far from being healthy. You add it all up and 0-1 loss against one of the strongest teams in MLS is not a reason or indication to even THINK of letting Winter go...

[Ageroo]

Because I don't think they have any replacements lined up.

And so once again we'd be waiting for months for some consultant to find a suitable replacement.

As they shouldn't really have any lined up to begin with.......if they are trying to change the culture from the ground up through the youth system....then sacking the people put in place to bring it about will set back the program completely in my opinion. Regardless of results....I don't think Winter and Co. are going anywhere for a while.....unless he up and quits himself.

[Beach_Red]

Well, the way I see it Winter and De Klerk were brought in the run the senior team and the develop academy, with the help of Mariner to work the ins and outs of MLS.

I hardly see the point of Winter developing an academy under one system but for the players to graduate to a senior side playing another. It's all happening at the same time under the same supervisor out of necessity.

Ultimately I'd agree - that the academy will be managed by someone other than the senior team's manager, but it would still all have to be under the watchful eye of a director.

Sure, that makes sense. The thing is, with the domestic quota it's likely that for quite a while MLS teams, TFC included, will have very mixed rosters - the 8 international spots coming from all over the world and the 22 spots made up of a few players they develop themselves and others from other MLS academies and NCAA.

So, sure, higher skill level is always a good idea, but I think what Winter finally realized and started making trades to deal with is the fact that the pool of players he has to draw from is limited and likely will be for quite a while. He's going to need to figure out how to be successful with a very mixed bag, but it does look like this is a good start.

[canadian_bhoy]

No MLS player should ever utter a statement about the quality of someone else.

Maybe if players in MLS weren't such a bunch of hacks, they'd be able execute the system better. Maybe Winter is giving these guys too much credit and doesn't realize they're too dumb to play the system.