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  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Menelaos View Post
    I'll agree with some of what you said.

    I have never put too much stock into something said by someone traded away. Lets be honest, there has to be a feeling of being unwanted and nobody likes that. So, is it possible they will say stuff to get back at someone? Of course.

    As for status points, while there are so many experts and insiders on these boards, anyone with 1/2 a brain can tell the morons from the ones who might actually know a thing or two. Just do what the rest of us do, ignore those who you think are full of it.
    Not saying that the type of individuals I'm describing above are necessarily "full of it," as far as their info. is concerned (they are probably correct in whatever they're saying and even a broken clock is right, twice a day).. just that their intentions/priorities, with respect to the club's best interests, are suspect.

    Not saying to remain silent all season.. but I just feel that certain inside information, at the wrong times, does more harm than good (my opinion, anyway).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Lots of commentary related to Winter focusing on basic technical skills.

    Why is it so hard to believe that a coach, in a DEVELOPEMENTAL league would want to work on these skills? If I am a young guy with transfer aspirations, this is what I need, technical skill.

    If I am Gordon, if I had technical skill, I probably wouldn't be here. My game can only improve.

    As for the hockey stuff a few pages back, pros work on the basics all the time. Including skating, passing, shooting and puck handling.
    As I said, I'm more comfortable with hockey analogies and I apologize for that, but I just wanted to say, sure pros work on the basics AND a game plan.

    But what this situation really reminds me of in the New Jersey Devils when Gretzky called them a Mickey Mouse organization. He was right and they set about changing their team. But they didn't try to play the Oilers fast-paced, high-skilled game because they knew they couldn't get the players for that. They got grinders, played the trap, built the defence and won a few Stanley Cups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roogsy View Post
    It's a classic trick of deception. Entertain us with these signings so that fans are distracted from the fundamental problems of this team.
    Sounds incredibly expensive. I doubt they are secretly keeping the team poor by not "Fundamentaly" improving it, not in their best interest.

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    Personally I hope the 'insiders' continue to post the info that they have. That's what makes this place so great, imo.

    Its not like the media is doing a good job of breaking interesting TFC stories.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Empirical View Post
    Sounds incredibly expensive. I doubt they are secretly keeping the team poor by not "Fundamentaly" improving it, not in their best interest.
    I have no doubt in my mind they want to win. They just don't know how. And the early evidence is that they fucked it up, again.

    Personally I think the recent DP signings are more about protecting the season ticket renewal numbers. Its a risk they had to take because despite the patience on this forum most of the fan base wouldn't mind watching the occasional win. And the early results look promising for them. TFC was dominated by Dallas (look at the shot stats) yet there is still a lot of positive energy surrounding the club due to the turnover. The big question is whether they can turn this into real results. If not than the money spent on the new DPs will most likely be a waste.
    Last edited by menefreghista; 07-22-2011 at 07:37 AM.

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    It's entirely possible that Winter/De Klerk have trouble explaining their system simply because they've never dealt with players who needed it explaining to them.

    I still firmly believe that the root of the team's problem (players not getting what their coaches are asking of them) is a cultural divide.

    The Dutch, in particular, don't need to be told how to think laterally, how to creatively use space, because the country they live in demands, and has always demanded, they intuitively learn to do so at a very young age. North America, with its vast expanses, doesn't make the same demand of its population.

    What this boils down to is a bad philosophical fit. I don't believe that Winter & De Klerk are incapable, I just think they're in the wrong league.

    Just an opinion though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by koryo View Post

    The Dutch, in particular, don't need to be told how to think laterally, how to creatively use space, because the country they live in demands, and has always demanded, they intuitively learn to do so at a very young age. North America, with its vast expanses, doesn't make the same demand of its population.

    What this boils down to is a bad philosophical fit. I don't believe that Winter & De Klerk are incapable, I just think they're in the wrong league.

    Just an opinion though.
    Nice theory. I'll offer a different opinion, though. Spain also has vast expanses, and a Dutch-influenced system has worked wonders over there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    What will hurt this team is taking a "win now" perspective like New York. Despite going through coaches like toilet paper, and now hiring a proven Euro coach, and despite thrashing us 5-0, an MLS Cup, or any trophy, really, seems as hopeless as ever.
    You need to understand a little about New York's MLS history. MLS had done everything it could in the early years to try and make sure that New York was successful, and it just didn't work. New York is a marquee city and from a league perspective, it is vitally important to have a high quality, winning team there. Despite this belief, New York has changed coaches frequently and with that comes changes in how each coach wants the team to play.

    New York is more "Win" than "Win now" and right now they appear to be in the most stable place they've been since MLS was formed. They are looking for the right supplemental peices to make sure that their playoff run doesn't finish the same way as last year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by menefreghista View Post
    Personally I think the recent DP signings are more about protecting the season ticket renewal numbers.
    Personally, I don't. Mariner said early on that given the right people being available, they would pick up DP signings.

    I'm sure the number-crunchers at ML$E hope that the DP signings help, but even they have to realize that a winning team would do a lot more for those tickets (and what they don't seem to realize is that charging Premier-league prices for MLS is out of line, but I digress).
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    Quote Originally Posted by menefreghista View Post
    Personally I hope the 'insiders' continue to post the info that they have. That's what makes this place so great, imo.

    Its not like the media is doing a good job of breaking interesting TFC stories.

    I can understand where the OP is coming from, however, I'm glad there are people who pass along information here when they come across it. I guess the people posting need to decide when it's the right and wrong time to share the information and how to present it on here without a bias of opinion.

    It's also up to us people reading the information to understand most of what is posted is third-hand information. Internet boards are probably the worst form the the game "Telephone" there is.

    The only time I get annoyed is when someone posts something like - I've got some inside info that would change everyone's opinion but I'm not going to post it for whatever reason. In those cases I think people should just not post anything at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Nice theory. I'll offer a different opinion, though. Spain also has vast expanses, and a Dutch-influenced system has worked wonders over there.
    But Spain doesn't have a piss-poor developmental infrastructure either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by koryo View Post
    But Spain doesn't have a piss-poor developmental infrastructure either.
    That has nothing to do with "vast expanses." You're changing the topic.

    Anyways, I'm not sure that Winter is a brilliant coach, at least at this stage of his career. But even a mediocre coach will get us into the playoffs if we just keep the course, MLS is set up that way. The only reasons TFC never made it was that we changed coaches and philosophies all the time, and MoJo horribly mis-managed the cap.

    I'm much more pleased with Mariner. He'll help TFC a lot in the years to come.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    If I am Gordon, if I had technical skill, I probably wouldn't be here. My game can only improve.
    Gordon has been a fringe player as long as he has been in MLS. Never a "sure thing" starter in LA - a steady MLS caliber player. Supplemented his income in LA by coaching kids teams as documented in "The Beckham Experiment". He comes to Toronto and, much like Dichio before him, the fans make him a favorite. He has more success in fewer playing minutes than pretty much anyone has ever had here in Toronto, but if you were starting a team, you would hardly choose Alan Gordon as the key piece that you build around.

    From day one my biggest complaint about MLS players is their lack of quality first touch. Supplement that with the lack of footballing IQ in most players (they have to think about what they are doing, as opposed to just doing iut because of thousands of hours on the pitch as youngsters doing it). We've had only a handful of players with a true high quality first touch since this team was formed. And not all have been successful. Vitti was as good at it as anyone. Danny D's touch is good, JDG always has been good with control of an incoming ball, and DeRo was better than average at it.

    We have more players with that capability today than we've ever had in the lineup at one time. Santos is good, as is Plata and Eckersley on this team. And you see that from Frings based upon his first game, and Danny K looks to have it too.

    Back to topic. My opinion on Gordon's comments? I liked Gordon as a person in the few times I spoke with him, and as a player when he was healthy. He was a catalyst on a team that had few. But I think some of his comments originate with his having more success here (and the shot at "star" status) than he's ever had anywhere else. His injuries here only compound that frustration. Winter's comments about Gordon in post game pressers was generally good, but that doesn't speak to the relationship the two had with each other. So if it wasn't great, well, that's what it was. Gordon's comments may be fair in that regard.

    But I believe TFC moved a fringe player, not a cornerstone.

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    Oh man, I love it here -- another big MASH of a 20 - 30-something page thread, all in one.

    I was hoping to start a unique conversation about the moral responsibility of those "in the know," but instead it will be forever lost in a random ex-player's comment/complaint thread -- super!

    Oh and since this now makes it look like I was directing my comments at anyone in particular: I wasn't; whilst it's possible that the thread you've merged my topic with may have inspired the conversation I was attempting, I was never singling it out.. because it's not a unique instance.

    Buh.
    Last edited by JuliquE; 07-22-2011 at 08:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    That has nothing to do with "vast expanses." You're changing the topic.

    Anyways, I'm not sure that Winter is a brilliant coach, at least at this stage of his career. But even a mediocre coach will get us into the playoffs if we just keep the course, MLS is set up that way. The only reasons TFC never made it was that we changed coaches and philosophies all the time, and MoJo horribly mis-managed the cap.

    I'm much more pleased with Mariner. He'll help TFC a lot in the years to come.
    No, but putting the two together = players who can't grasp a system like this. Anywho, I'm only thinking out loud. The rest of you, and rightly so, can dismiss it as the ramblings of a diseased mind

    Agreed on all other points though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuliquE View Post
    Oh man, I love it here -- another big MASH of a 20 - 30-something page thread, all in one.
    But the other sub-forum is so full of clutter from all the topics!

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    This thread is really the DeRo thread version 4.0, with the same arguments being re-hashed over and over again... by largely the same people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    This thread is really the DeRo thread version 4.0, with the same arguments being re-hashed over and over again... by largely the same people.
    How so? This is the questioning Winter's ability thread.

    What does it have to do with De Ro?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Globetrotter View Post
    people on boards like these love to hear themselves speak, and think very highly of themselves. the chance to be the king in a world of serfdom.
    LOL! I regard your comments with suspicion.


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    Was Winter brought in to put a team on the field for us now / today ? Or was he brought in to develop the culture and, to that end, the academy (and thus building a squad for the future) ?

    He's hard-pressed to put a winning side on the pitch with the players that are available to him, using the system that is being taught at academy level. But this is what he has to do, so when players are brought up to the senior team they are playing the system that they have always been taught.

    Winter is not to be judged by the performance of this team on the field now, or for the next few seasons. Winter is to be judged by the success of the academy and the senior team as it exists when much of the squad has graduated from there.

    For now he's trying to teach old dogs new tricks at senor level, and not getting very far. But believe me, it's the academy that is the true focus.
    Last edited by TOBOR !; 07-22-2011 at 08:27 AM.
    a ha ha heh he hoo.. ha

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    My doubts about Winter at this point mainly relate to tactical decisions, and I don't really have an issue with MLS lifers who don't get what Winter is teaching (i.e. I fall into theory #2, the players are crap). The Dutch have a reputation of being stubborn, and while not wanting to typecast, Winter largely fits the stereotype: you're going to play football his way, he's not going to change, or you're gone.

    I actually don't have a problem with that as far as the players go. The players at this club have been coddled too much, to the point that (as one article put it) they treat it more like a pastime than a job. Preki was supposed to change all that, but he was forced out by a conspiracy of the usual suspects among the players (the same bunch that got rid of Dale Mitchell as CMNT coach) and some assistant coaches who wanted his job. The culture didn't change. Ship 'em all out, if you have to, I say.

    Where I have a problem with Winter's stubborness is that he will always play the same Ajax formation, even when an amateur coach like myself can see that a different formation would work better. Now (as one person put it) Winter has forgotten more about football than all of this board knows put together, but his stubborness keeps him from some sensible changes. Whether this will keep him from forming a winning team (in practice, only about 20% of a team's performance is due to the coach, according to Paul James, the rest is squad quality) remains to be seen.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 07-22-2011 at 08:28 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    That has nothing to do with "vast expanses." You're changing the topic.

    Anyways, I'm not sure that Winter is a brilliant coach, at least at this stage of his career. But even a mediocre coach will get us into the playoffs if we just keep the course, MLS is set up that way. The only reasons TFC never made it was that we changed coaches and philosophies all the time, and MoJo horribly mis-managed the cap.

    I'm much more pleased with Mariner. He'll help TFC a lot in the years to come.
    The set-up of MLS is important in planning team building. You're right, the way it's set up even a mediocre coach can get a team into the playoffs, but the set-up also means that a team is unlikely to stay near the top of the league for extended periods - their best young players will move to higher leagues and the best players coming out of NCAA (and there are some, like the guy who scored against us last game) will go to teams that finished at the bottom of the league.

    So, MLS isn't really set-up for long-term, player development, build from within. It's set up as "win now" league, or at least a win within 2-3 years and then start over league.

    That's the way parity leagues work, that way fans never feel more than 2-3 years away from being competitive. That's the NFL. Now, of course, some teams are never more than 2-3 years from being competitive (Steelers) and never far out of it and some seem to always be near the bottom (Bengals) but even they have a chance. It comes down to management and the right plan for the league set-up.

    I think what we saw here was Mariner and Winter leaving behind the Klinsmann pre-season plan and starting to put together a team that can be competitive in MLS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    This thread is really the DeRo thread version 4.0, with the same arguments being re-hashed over and over again... by largely the same people.
    in a nutshell..

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachGT View Post
    Gordon has been a fringe player as long as he has been in MLS. Never a "sure thing" starter in LA - a steady MLS caliber player. Supplemented his income in LA by coaching kids teams as documented in "The Beckham Experiment". He comes to Toronto and, much like Dichio before him, the fans make him a favorite. He has more success in fewer playing minutes than pretty much anyone has ever had here in Toronto, but if you were starting a team, you would hardly choose Alan Gordon as the key piece that you build around.

    From day one my biggest complaint about MLS players is their lack of quality first touch. Supplement that with the lack of footballing IQ in most players (they have to think about what they are doing, as opposed to just doing iut because of thousands of hours on the pitch as youngsters doing it). We've had only a handful of players with a true high quality first touch since this team was formed. And not all have been successful. Vitti was as good at it as anyone. Danny D's touch is good, JDG always has been good with control of an incoming ball, and DeRo was better than average at it.

    We have more players with that capability today than we've ever had in the lineup at one time. Santos is good, as is Plata and Eckersley on this team. And you see that from Frings based upon his first game, and Danny K looks to have it too.

    Back to topic. My opinion on Gordon's comments? I liked Gordon as a person in the few times I spoke with him, and as a player when he was healthy. He was a catalyst on a team that had few. But I think some of his comments originate with his having more success here (and the shot at "star" status) than he's ever had anywhere else. His injuries here only compound that frustration. Winter's comments about Gordon in post game pressers was generally good, but that doesn't speak to the relationship the two had with each other. So if it wasn't great, well, that's what it was. Gordon's comments may be fair in that regard.

    But I believe TFC moved a fringe player, not a cornerstone.
    To add to what I consider a bang on post, movement off the ball and lack of vision and focus are other challenges the MLS players have. All can be corrected but time is the key.

    Anyone who did not see change on Wednesday night need to stop sniffing the Zamboni fumes.

    As for Gordon, who cares what he thinks TFC is the only place he was relevent and that only happened because of a lack of depth!

    Good luck on the bench Alan!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    I think what we saw here was Mariner and Winter leaving behind the Klinsmann pre-season plan and starting to put together a team that can be competitive in MLS.
    I actually have no problem with how they are proceeding to build this team, and for the record, I would have gotten rid of DeRo too (although I would have tried to make it work for him overseas, like he wanted, Earl really mis-treated him there).

    It makes sense that they would take some time for Winter to learn the league before doing the drastic restructuring. Now he knows what is needed to build a winner in this league. How well he'll do coaching it remains to be seen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beach_Red View Post
    As I said, I'm more comfortable with hockey analogies and I apologize for that, but I just wanted to say, sure pros work on the basics AND a game plan.

    But what this situation really reminds me of in the New Jersey Devils when Gretzky called them a Mickey Mouse organization. He was right and they set about changing their team. But they didn't try to play the Oilers fast-paced, high-skilled game because they knew they couldn't get the players for that. They got grinders, played the trap, built the defence and won a few Stanley Cups.
    Fair enough.

    However, in practice Brodeur still worked on his angles, controlling rebounds, his reaction time, stick handling and puck control. The same basics, performed at a higher level of course, that a youngster learns with his coach/goaltending school.

    Defensemen worked on zone coverage, passing, shooting (for that odd moment when they counterattacked or had a Powerplay) etc. Forwards on cycling, shooting, etc. All would have had time dedicated to basic skating and conditioning.

    And of course, they would have learned a system. For some, a defensive trap system would have been easy to pick up. For others, like offensive minded Scott Neidermayer, it would have been outside their comfort zone.

    I just think that the concept that soccer players are incapable of learning a different system is silly when professional athletes all over the world have adapted their styles to fit a new coach, a new team or simply a new role.

    Further, the concept that professional athletes, particularly those in a developmental league, are wasting their time on the basics seems absurd when a focus on the basics is what got athletes to the highest levels... and keeps them there.

    Much like when Beckham suggested running "Crossing clinics" for players in this league. Not many disagreed that the quality of this "basic" technique was and is lacking in this league.

    http://www.soccer-training-info.com/...ing_clinic.asp

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    'Disgruntled former employee doesn't like former boss.'

    Consider me shocked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I actually have no problem with how they are proceeding to build this team, and for the record, I would have gotten rid of DeRo too (although I would have tried to make it work for him overseas, like he wanted, Earl really mis-treated him there).

    It makes sense that they would take some time for Winter to learn the league before doing the drastic restructuring. Now he knows what is needed to build a winner in this league. How well he'll do coaching it remains to be seen.
    Yes, I have no problem with the way they're building the team now. I think here were probably some real behind the scenes office politics that needed to get worked out and when Winter came out and said HE was going to start making trades I think it marked a change in the way the team is being run. I think that was really the first time there was any sense that this is going to be Winter's team - not the team leftover from the old regime and not Klinsmann's team, but Winter's.

    So yes, it remains to be seen how good a job he can do with it, but I think the "Mariner-Winter" era of TFC has really just started, and started pretty well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post

    And of course, they would have learned a system. For some, a defensive trap system would have been easy to pick up. For others, like offensive minded Scott Neidermayer, it would have been outside their comfort zone.

    I just think that the concept that soccer players are incapable of learning a different system is silly when professional athletes all over the world have adapted their styles to fit a new coach, a new team or simply a new role.

    Further, the concept that professional athletes, particularly those in a developmental league, are wasting their time on the basics seems absurd when a focus on the basics is what got athletes to the highest levels... and keeps them there.
    Well, yes, it would have been tough to get offensive players to "buy in" to the system, that's where the skill of the coaches comes in. Interestingly with the Devils, the coach that convinced the players to use that style never played it himself.

    And sure, every player works on basics for their entire career, but a good coach takes those basics and makes them part of a cohesive whole.

    But also, not all players can play any system. Sports would be boring if that
    was the case, the players mere robots.

    I think what we're really talking about isn't teaching a system, but which system at which point? I think TFC have, as Whoop said, changed gears. The long-term goal is the same but they've realized there are more (or different) interim steps involved.

    And they need to win more games right now, or at least be more competitive, that's just human nature for coaches and athletes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DOMIN8R View Post
    So let's say, for the sake of argument, MLSE and the fans loose faith in Klinsman's (and his view that we need to invest in the long-term to see sustainable results) recommendation and sack WMD and we start over every six months until we see a playoff run, would you be satisfied? Or should we sack management until we hear that traded players leave happy and have warm and fuzzy feelings about TFC? Or we sack management until Anselmi looses his job or the team is sold - whichever comes first?

    I don't get it. Should we just call BMO field the firing range and stop masquerading that it's a football pitch? Because that will get the "best" coaches and players to want to come here?

    I'm sorry but I don't see this as reasonable. But perhaps I'm missing something. Help me understand how this makes sense.

    OR

    Admit that this is not logical and we are compelled to follow the present course and hope that it is the right one.
    I admit this. But "following the present course and hoping" is not logical either. I've completely lost faith that Winter will get it done.

    I don't have a solution, other than cutting the amount of money I spend on TFC tickets, which I plan to do.
    “What the world needs is more geniuses with humility; there are so few of us left.”

 

 

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