Gordon dishes on TFC, Winter

[DangerRed]

I'm currently in Belize, but as i was flying out of Toronto on Saturday morning, I bumped into Alan Gordon. Said I'm a huge fan, asked about his trade. He's a great guy, very cool and very nice and he was VERY candid about his short time at TFC. Take this for what you will, I'm sure some of this is sour grapes, but it's definitely interesting insight.

He said he believes he was traded because he got into a fight with a trainer over being forced to play too much too sun while recovering from injury. He said he was barely supposed to play in the Houston game, for instance.

As far as coaching goes, I said to him that to me, Winter resembles Ruud Gullit. He said: "I've played for both of them. They're the exact same person."

He said the coaches have done a horrible job explaining the "system' to the players and added that many just don't get it. He said they do a lot of passing drills in practice, more than he's ever seen, but when a player asks a question about how the system works beyond just "attacking, possession-oriented football," there are no answers. Players are just running around in confusion.

He said he thinks Winter is completely lost, in way over his head, and that he feels bad for the fans and the supporters because this team is not going to be very successful any time soon.

I wrapped up my chat with him by wishing him good luck, but asking him to take it easy when TFC plays San Jose next.

[zamperina]

If what he saying is true then Winter/De Klerk will be gone by this time next season and Mariner will bring in his guys to coach this team.

[Detroit_TFC]

OY VEY

[Roogsy]

I'm currently in Belize, but as i was flying out of Toronto on Saturday morning, I bumped into Alan Gordon. Said I'm a huge fan, asked about his trade. He's a great guy, very cool and very nice and he was VERY candid about his short time at TFC. Take this for what you will, I'm sure some of this is sour grapes, but it's definitely interesting insight.

He said he believes he was traded because he got into a fight with a trainer over being forced to play too much too sun while recovering from injury. He said he was barely supposed to play in the Houston game, for instance.

As far as coaching goes, I said to him that to me, Winter resembles Ruud Gullit. He said: "I've played for both of them. They're the exact same person."

He said the coaches have done a horrible job explaining the "system' to the players and added that many just don't get it. He said they do a lot of passing drills in practice, more than he's ever seen, but when a player asks a question about how the system works beyond just "attacking, possession-oriented football," there are no answers. Players are just running around in confusion.

He said he thinks Winter is completely lost, in way over his head, and that he feels bad for the fans and the supporters because this team is not going to be very successful any time soon.

I wrapped up my chat with him by wishing him good luck, but asking him to take it easy when TFC plays San Jose next.

Consdering other players (some who are still with TFC, some who are gone) have told me many of the same things, I am inclined to believe that most of this is true. I have made the Gullit comparison before, I think it's a risk that many TFC fans are simply ignoring because it's not a pleasant thought.

We have lots of new players, some with excellent quality. But until the coaching issue is addressed, I think we will underperform. I doubt we will continue to be bottom of the league, but I think poor coaching will keep us simply as an average team (with one of the highest payrolls in the league) as opposed to a contending team.

[Detroit_TFC]

...I think it's a risk that many TFC fans are simply ignoring because it's not a pleasant thought.
...

True. It's crossed my mind, but its a dead end because what can you do? I disagree about them only lasting a year, though, unless they give up and leave on their own. Ruud was forced out because Leiwicke's hand was forced, by Beckham's people, the league, etc etc etc (see the Wahl book). No such forces like that are in play here.

[ag futbol]

man, this really is a broken record with these guys leaving.

I'm not going to even bother typing anything negative, just hope for the best because if this is a bad as they make it out to be: we're fucked.

[Alonso]

Consdering other players (some who are still with TFC, some who are gone) have told me many of the same things, I am inclined to believe that most of this is true. I have made the Gullit comparison before, I think it's a risk that many TFC fans are simply ignoring because it's not a pleasant thought.

We have lots of new players, some with excellent quality. But until the coaching issue is addressed, I think we will underperform. I doubt we will continue to be bottom of the league, but I think poor coaching will keep us simply as an average team (with one of the highest payrolls in the league) as opposed to a contending team.

This MAY, be true, but what recourse does TFC really have? Surely we have to let him play out his tenure, if for no other reason than if TFC cut Winter we will look like asses who can't see a plan through because when times are tough we start pointing fingers.

FO is in a tough spot if this is true.

[Whoop]

Goes further back...

Has any former TFC player ever said anything positive about TFC upon leaving?

[menefreghista]

Goes further back...

Has any former TFC player ever said anything positive about TFC upon leaving?

Just to add to that, Petersen recently tweeted something about it being nice to be treated like an adult again.

Danger Red's story isn't shocking.

The one thing the recent moves have done is give the management team a bit more slack for the next few weeks. But I do think if this team doesn't improve its play and win some games down the stretch there is a threat that Winter will just give up.

[MFG1]

Goes further back...

Has any former TFC player ever said anything positive about TFC upon leaving?

has there been any reason to be positive for ANY of these players other than they got out?

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I too think that they're pretty safe for now. Considering what it took Anselmi to fire MoJo, I doubt anyone's job is in danger anytime soon. Doesn't mean fans are going to get the results we deserve.

yeah i dont see them firing him til at least midway next season, which seems fair enough. Lack of results is definitely not going to endear the club/mlse anymore than it already is.

has there been any reason to be positive for ANY of these players other than they got out?

HAHAHA nope

[backbeat]

Aron Winter had been at one team (Ajax) for 6 years coaching - if he was so poor at coaching i really don't think he would have lasted that long - i think this is way over-blown by players getting moved out and fans who liked the players leaving - either way with voices like Frings, if this has any merit, we'll hear about it pretty soon as he surely wouldn't put up with it.

[Pigfynn]

Aron Winter had been at one team (Ajax) for 6 years coaching - if he was so poor at coaching i really don't think he would have lasted that long - i think this is way over-blown by players getting moved out and fans who liked the players leaving - either way with voices like Frings, if this has any merit, we'll hear about it pretty soon as he surely wouldn't put up with it.

No way man, Ajax hires inept coaches to run their world famous youth teams all the time and then keep them on for years on end.

^sarcasm

It could never be that lazy, unskilled American players just don't/can't get it. It's because the dutch guys are all the same, everyone of them underestimates our powerhouse league and suddenly forget how to tell eleven guys how to play a system they've played since they were 3yrs old.

^ more sarcasm

[Roogsy]

Aron Winter had been at one team (Ajax) for 6 years coaching - if he was so poor at coaching i really don't think he would have lasted that long - i think this is way over-blown by players getting moved out and fans who liked the players leaving - either way with voices like Frings, if this has any merit, we'll hear about it pretty soon as he surely wouldn't put up with it.

It depends what the purpose of the Ajax academy was. Players in the system coming up through the various levels would already be familiar with the "system" and thus he had no need to teach it, simply to apply it and identify players that would excel.

That is a far different task from the one he was brought here to do. It is a leap of faith to suggest that running the junior squad at Ajax would translate well into running a senior squad in MLS. A different set of skills would be required. If someone would identify instances in his position at Ajax where he showed tactical acumen, player development and team education, and getting the most out of working with less, I could understand. But we haven't seen anything of the sort, and yet everyone points to his job at Ajax as being impressive but nobody explains how his job at Ajax translates into benefits for us in MLS.

If I am building a house, I don't want the contractor that built the CN Tower, I want a home builder that knows the intricacies and stylings of building something like a home. Right people for the the job. That's fundamentally my problem with Winter and been the achilles heel of MLSE and TFC since this team got off the ground. We still haven't learned that lesson.

[ExiledRed]

Aron Winter had been at one team (Ajax) for 6 years coaching -if he was so poor at coaching i really don't think he would have lasted that long -

He wasnt coaching the first team, sorry but that's huge. Ajax released him and he was unemployed for 18 months. If he was so brilliant, maybe he wouldn't have been released, and maybe he would have been headhunted straight away.

i think this is way over-blown by players getting moved out and fans who liked the players leaving - either way with voices like Frings, if this has any merit, we'll hear about it pretty soon as he surely wouldn't put up with it.

Frings will have no problem with the system, and he probably has more in common with winter than with anybody on the squad. Dont expect a thing to change with regard to how winter treats players he seems to look down on.

[brad]

Goes further back...

Has any former TFC player ever said anything positive about TFC upon leaving?

I know that Dunivant loved it here and didn't want to leave.

[Roogsy]

It's a classic trick of deception. Entertain us with these signings so that fans are distracted from the fundamental problems of this team.

[Empirical]

It's a classic trick of deception. Entertain us with these signings so that fans are distracted from the fundamental problems of this team.

Sounds incredibly expensive. I doubt they are secretly keeping the team poor by not "Fundamentaly" improving it, not in their best interest.

[menefreghista]

Sounds incredibly expensive. I doubt they are secretly keeping the team poor by not "Fundamentaly" improving it, not in their best interest.

I have no doubt in my mind they want to win. They just don't know how. And the early evidence is that they fucked it up, again.

Personally I think the recent DP signings are more about protecting the season ticket renewal numbers. Its a risk they had to take because despite the patience on this forum most of the fan base wouldn't mind watching the occasional win. And the early results look promising for them. TFC was dominated by Dallas (look at the shot stats) yet there is still a lot of positive energy surrounding the club due to the turnover. The big question is whether they can turn this into real results. If not than the money spent on the new DPs will most likely be a waste.

[Oldtimer]

Personally I think the recent DP signings are more about protecting the season ticket renewal numbers.

Personally, I don't. Mariner said early on that given the right people being available, they would pick up DP signings.

I'm sure the number-crunchers at ML$E hope that the DP signings help, but even they have to realize that a winning team would do a lot more for those tickets (and what they don't seem to realize is that charging Premier-league prices for MLS is out of line, but I digress).

[Ossington Mental Youth]

uhhhh
well the prob is if it is the main problem its going to surface again so i dont know that its really that big an illusion.

The players that left arent exactly quality guys in fairness. Regardless if the 'system' doesnt work, it doesnt work and itll be found out.

[Roogsy]

I too think that they're pretty safe for now. Considering what it took Anselmi to fire MoJo, I doubt anyone's job is in danger anytime soon. Doesn't mean fans are going to get the results we deserve.

[Oldtimer]

Time will tell if Gordon's assessment is correct.

Being burned by Gullitt may have coloured his perspective somewhat. Anyway, we'll see by next year.

If there is a problem, I doubt Tom A. will wait 4 years again.

[Blazer]

This team has looked more disoriented than ever before and they’ve been this way all season. Much of Gordon’s account with you would make sense at least, sour grapes or otherwise.

Save for a few individual performances that Winter really had no control over and can’t take credit for, his team has been the laughing stalk of MLS.

This organization is in shambles right now and if we chose to believe that the players are as confused as Gordon suggested above, you would also have no problem believing this current regime has no immediate or foreseeable solution.

Drop season ticket prices TFC. You’ve lost fan loyalty and soon you’ll be losing many more STHers alike.

[Roogsy]

I've likened the arrival of Koevermans and Frings to splashing on cologne instead of taking a shower. Sure you don't smell like you did before, but it doesn't mean it's because you're clean.

TFC may not "stink" like it did before, but I wouldn't want to look at what the shirt collars look like.

[rocker]

It's not surprising that MLS players wouldn't get the system. After reading that ESPN article that was posted the other day, clearly MLS players don't understand the basics and don't have those skills. That's clearly why they've brought in so many foreigners. When you've got even a handful of MLSers who don't get it intuitively, then you have weak links. Changing the culture of the team takes time, and that's why they've said they want to have that culture imbedded in the academy. This is the classic dilemma in MLS -- do you go with the longball, bruising, talentless style and win games, or do you try something more dynamic and wait a few years for success?

How did NYRB get that system working so fast? Bring in a bunch of experienced foreigners, and don't depend upon kids or MLSers (Solli, Rodgers, Henry, Marquez, Taino, Rost, Lindpere are neither young nor MLSers).

RSL and Dallas did something similar and it took a longer time for them. I'm sure if you ask players in Kreis and Hyndman's first years, you'd hear negative opinions.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

It's not surprising that MLS players wouldn't get the system. After reading that ESPN article that was posted the other day, clearly MLS players don't understand the basics and don't have those skills. That's clearly why they've brought in so many foreigners. When you've got even a handful of MLSers who don't get it intuitively, then you have weak links. Changing the culture of the team takes time, and that's why they've said they want to have that culture imbedded in the academy.

essentially what i meant by look at the players that went out but way more articulate

[rocker]

essentially what i meant by look at the players that went out but way more articulate

ya, and that's why I think Peterson tweeted that "child" comment.

Peterson is not skilled enough or cerebral enough to play in such a system. So they probably were trying to explain things he's never heard of (it'd be like trying to teach a 25 year old algebra for the first time). Maybe that comes across as condescending to an MLSer who grew up in a completely different system.

Beyond this controversy, I've noticed something.... Backe said he's trying to do a proper style from Europe but that it's hard when playing against MLS teams that don't do that. Tom Soehn fired Tatot Tots because Tator wasn't doing that style -- Soehn wants to keep it on the ground and play the right way.... yet Vancouver has a shit record like TFC. I think there's a major clash of soccer culture going on right now in MLS.

[Oldtimer]

It's not surprising that MLS players wouldn't get the system. After reading that ESPN article that was posted the other day, clearly MLS players don't understand the basics and don't have those skills. That's clearly why they've brought in so many foreigners. When you've got even a handful of MLSers who don't get it intuitively, then you have weak links. Changing the culture of the team takes time, and that's why they've said they want to have that culture imbedded in the academy. This is the classic dilemma in MLS -- do you go with the longball, bruising, talentless style and win games, or do you try something more dynamic and wait a few years for success?

How did NYRB get that system working so fast? Bring in a bunch of experienced foreigners, and don't depend upon kids or MLSers (Solli, Rodgers, Henry, Marquez, Taino, Rost, Lindpere are neither young nor MLSers).

RSL and Dallas did something similar and it took a longer time for them. I'm sure if you ask players in Kreis and Hyndman's first years, you'd hear negative opinions.

The voice of reason.

[Strikers]

It's not surprising that MLS players wouldn't get the system. After reading that ESPN article that was posted the other day, clearly MLS players don't understand the basics and don't have those skills. That's clearly why they've brought in so many foreigners. When you've got even a handful of MLSers who don't get it intuitively, then you have weak links. Changing the culture of the team takes time, and that's why they've said they want to have that culture imbedded in the academy. This is the classic dilemma in MLS -- do you go with the longball, bruising, talentless style and win games, or do you try something more dynamic and wait a few years for success?

How did NYRB get that system working so fast? Bring in a bunch of experienced foreigners, and don't depend upon kids or MLSers (Solli, Rodgers, Henry, Marquez, Taino, Rost, Lindpere are neither young nor MLSers).

RSL and Dallas did something similar and it took a longer time for them. I'm sure if you ask players in Kreis and Hyndman's first years, you'd hear negative opinions.

I agree with this statement, can't teach an old dog new tricks. The Acadmey will be huge in the future and that's why I think Winter was brought in. Ajax is arguably the best academy in the world.