Gordon dishes on TFC, Winter

[los sonadores]

Gordon played very well in Winter's system for a guy who allegedly didn't understand it.

Winter's an old school-like Dutch coach though; he's not a talkative feel good sort of guy. And he has only coached in a place where most everyone knows, on a basic level, from the age of 7 or whatever, exactly what they're supposed to be doing. His English is truly poor as well - a Dutch friend of mine heard him speak English and called it Dunglish.

Anyway, there is a learning curve, and we have to climb it as well. There is no other sane choice at this point.

[Roogsy]

There's now too much evidence to the contrary. Much of it is just using your own eyes and ears, what else is there to say? Winter has lost the room and isn't teaching and/or can't teach. It's not "arrogant" if it's obvious. If you don't think it's obvious, it's a free country.

One player saying it is little evidence. Many players saying it should be more worrisome. But it seems that people are more willing to take all the evidence out there and bundle it all completely as "coincidence" and some sort of "North American entitlement". Well, other teams do just fine with these same entitled "North Americans". If Winter came here to bemoan the talent level in North America, maybe he shouldn't be coaching North American players? Maybe that's what he wants? To fill the roster full of non-North Americans. That will be great. We will get the drudges of Europe while at the same time failing to develop Canadian talent. Marvelous.

[Roogsy]

Given that Gordon definitely wasnt the problem in the team, and doesnt have any excuses to make for himself, I think its more than ridiculous to doubt him.

I fully expect at some point to hear something about Gordon being entitled, lazy or just an outright cancer. That's the M.O. around here.

[Beach_Red]

One player saying it is little evidence. Many players saying it should be more worrisome. But it seems that people are more willing to take all the evidence out there and bundle it all completely as "coincidence" and some sort of "North American entitlement". Well, other teams do just fine with these same entitled "North Americans". If Winter came here to bemoan the talent level in North America, maybe he shouldn't be coaching North American players? Maybe that's what he wants? To fill the roster full of non-North Americans. That will be great. We will get the drudges of Europe while at the same time failing to develop Canadian talent. Marvelous.

We'll have to trade all our young prospects for international roster spots .

[TFCRegina]

Just sayin', Roogs

Just saying what? They're two completely different examples.

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

This is how I see it. The players that have been traded (Gordon, Attakora, Peterson, Tchani) were all "injured" very often this season thus far. To the point of playing one game and becoming "injured" again, but they never actually pulled up limp on the field or anything during gameplay. They were just all of a sudden back on the injured list.

Except that Gordon did pull up injured and wincing in pain in a couple of games and definitely took knocks. Tchani almost had his ankle snapped on a red-card worthy tackle by Beckham. And, IIRC, Attakora was subbed out injured with 10 minutes left in a game.

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

Just saying what? They're two completely different examples.

Roogsy criticized someone for saying that because Preki was shit for us that proves that MLS coaches are shit. Then Thrillos said Gordon was shit. Then Roogsy ascribed Thrillos' comments to "this board", as though Thrillos speaks for everyone.

How is that two completely different examples?

[Roogsy]

Generalizations are a funny beast Vox. Would it be fair to say that this board is pro-Winter? Not all generalizations are fair are but some are pretty safe.

However picking out on bad coach in a sea of good coaches in an effort to prove a point is indeed selective is it not?

As for Gordon, my impression of Gordon's appreciation is based on spending a pretty stupid amount of time on this board. Now if you could find me extensive criticism of Gordon that would be evidence of the inaccuracy of my statement. Is there any?

[ag futbol]

I am somewhat confused with all this negativity towards "North American" players. Guess what, this is the MLS, that's what we are going to have. Do we really think we're going to fill the roster with top European on a budget of two and a half million?

This mentality is like Taco Bell saying they're going to run a business without serving meals to the obese. Good luck!

The attitude really strikes me as “we’re going to do it our way because these people don’t know any better”. I think that’s a story that’s been written with MLS coaches before. Maybe for our sake we can re-write the ending?

[DOMIN8R]

1) Whether Gordon speaks the truth;
2) We should loose confidence in Winter and he should be let go;
3) We should loose confidence in Winter and still support the team and management;
4) We should protest;
5) We should stop doing something like "reduce our spending" (i.e.: not renew our tickets???);
6) Gordon is not a reliable source...as he is on his way out;
7) Those on this board should stop changing their minds (how dare they?); 8) Those who are posting today represent all those who have posted in the past and should be held responsible for all those who have posted before today; or
9) Some of the above....all of the above...none of the above?

Somebody throw me a bone over here.

[VoxPopuliCosmicum]

Generalizations are a funny beast Vox. Would it be fair to say that this board is pro-Winter? Not all generalizations are fair are but some are pretty safe.

However picking out on bad coach in a sea of good coaches in an effort to prove a point is indeed selective is it not?

As for Gordon, my impression of Gordon's appreciation is based on spending a pretty stupid amount of time on this board. Now if you could find me extensive criticism of Gordon that would be evidence of the inaccuracy of my statement. Is there any?

I never said your statement was inaccurate. In fact, I said the opposite. I was just noting what seemed to me like an ironic instance of selective argument.

[backbeat]

geez

a sniff of negative and there's an F'n feeding frenzy around here.....

[ensco]

geez

a sniff of negative and there's an F'n feeding frenzy around here.....

A sniff or two a week, pretty soon you've got a stench.

Never mind, that takes two years.

[ensco]

1) Whether Gordon speaks the truth;
2) We should loose confidence in Winter and he should be let go;
3) We should loose confidence in Winter and still support the team and management;
4) We should protest;
5) We should stop doing something like "reduce our spending" (i.e.: not renew our tickets???);
6) Gordon is not a reliable source...as he is on his way out;
7) Those on this board should stop changing their minds (how dare they?); 8) Those who are posting today represent all those who have posted in the past and should be held responsible for all those who have posted before today; or
9) Some of the above....all of the above...none of the above?

Somebody throw me a bone over here.

I hate to say it but, as awful as it is for us and our team, I think it's about whether Winter is done. Everything flows from that.

[v00d00daddy]

I am somewhat confused with all this negativity towards "North American" players. Guess what, this is the MLS, that's what we are going to have. Do we really think we're going to fill the roster with top European on a budget of two and a half million?

There are some here who say ridiculous things like "if you don't like what you see then get out"...well if you don't like the level of North American talent, maybe MLS isn't for you and you should go back to following the EPL? Because Winter arriving isnt' going to change the talent level of North American soccer. All he's going to do is frustrate himself for 1 or 2 years that he isn't working with soccer prodigies that have the talent to play in the top leagues in the world. You'd think he wouldn't have realized this fact before he took on the job. Meanwhile, the competent coaches in this league are squeezing the best they can out of the athletic but technically lacking players that North America produces and get the results they can. Meanwhile we try to turn Harden into Heitinga.

Here is where I can agree wholeheartedly.

If TFC go back to playing "athletic, technically lacking" football I'm out. Wins or no wins I'll be gone because it's a road to oblivion.

If this team and this league doesnt aspire to play a technically proficient league to rival those in south America and Europe then what's the point?

Moreover...I see the need to get away from "athletic, technically lacking" football if we're ever going to see canada and Canadian kids compete on the world stage.

So..in short...if TFC decide to revert to 80's football for the sake of short term results I'll gladly walk away from my st. And if the canadian footballing mentality remains the same, I'll stop supporting the cmnt too.

I'll happily be a euro/south American football snob because there will be nothing to look forward to here.

This is my main reason for supporting winter and de Klerk.

Not because I love them, or because I think they're brilliant but because I want them to succeed in their plans. I want the plans to succeed because I think it would be good for football in general in this city and in this country and that's what I want more than anything.

[ensco]

So..in short...if TFC decide to revert to 80's football for the sake of short term results I'll gladly walk away from my st.

Serious question, not sarcastic. If this is how you feel, how have you held on to date? Do you not think this is all TFC have ever done?

[prizby]

fyi in their last game RSL started:

7 dumb Americans
2 dumb Canadian
1 Colombian
1 Costa Rican

no DP's. beat Dallas 2-0.

They managed to get their dumb North American players to play good stuff so it is possible.

who is the 2nd canadian???

[DOMIN8R]

I hate to say it but, as awful as it is for us and our team, I think it's about whether Winter is done. Everything flows from that.

So let's say, for the sake of argument, MLSE and the fans loose faith in Klinsman's (and his view that we need to invest in the long-term to see sustainable results) recommendation and sack WMD and we start over every six months until we see a playoff run, would you be satisfied? Or should we sack management until we hear that traded players leave happy and have warm and fuzzy feelings about TFC? Or we sack management until Anselmi looses his job or the team is sold - whichever comes first?

I don't get it. Should we just call BMO field the firing range and stop masquerading that it's a football pitch? Because that will get the "best" coaches and players to want to come here?

I'm sorry but I don't see this as reasonable. But perhaps I'm missing something. Help me understand how this makes sense.

OR

Admit that this is not logical and we are compelled to follow the present course and hope that it is the right one.

[v00d00daddy]

Serious question, not sarcastic. If this is how you feel, how have you held on to date? Do you not think this is all TFC have ever done?

It is all they've ever done...but it's only been 4 seasons.

I know that sounds crazy but I always hoped we'd one day want to build a club that aspires to something better than we've ever had in Canada. A club that would serve as the benchmark for canadian kids to reach in an attempt to produce world class players.

When I heard that TFC wanted to implement a system to build a club in the mold of Ajax I was happy. Very happy.

Now all I've got left to do is wait and see if it's attainable.

If it is...great.

If it isnt and the alternative is the utter shit I watched in the first couple of years (or a more productive version of that garbage brand of football) then my interest in club football in Toronto will once again be gone.

If TFC pull the plug on what some call an "experiment" for the sake of results and bring back garbage soccer, I'm done.

[123 elite]

This is a great thread. Lots of interesting stuff on here and nice to read the passion that we all have for TFC.
The Gordon thing is intriguing. I agreee with Roogsey though that thee has barely been a bad word on here about him till now. In fact after the LA game he was like god and the solution to every problem upfront we had.
i actually saw a lot of improvement last night and only time will tell how it will pan out. It needs about 6 more games in my opinion to make any judgement, My feeling though is that Winter is on the out. He is in way over his head. Too much importance is placed on the Ajax system in his support. As much as i like Ajax from the 70s there really hasn't been much to get excited about from Ajax over the last 25 years. Not to piss on Ajax or anything because i think what they try to do is the way forward but they have been surpassed in youth development by many european clubs. And the 'dutch system' on display at the world cup was the opposite of the Dutch of 74 and 78 so lets not get to thrilled with the Dutch. We are a long way from VB, Guillit and Cruyff now.
Frings looked good but evryone else last night that was new has much to prove.
I've been really critical of the team this year but i think we have to get off their backs now for a while

[Heathen]

Here is where I can agree wholeheartedly.

If TFC go back to playing "athletic, technically lacking" football I'm out. Wins or no wins I'll be gone because it's a road to oblivion.

If this team and this league doesnt aspire to play a technically proficient league to rival those in south America and Europe then what's the point?

Moreover...I see the need to get away from "athletic, technically lacking" football if we're ever going to see canada and Canadian kids compete on the world stage.

So..in short...if TFC decide to revert to 80's football for the sake of short term results I'll gladly walk away from my st. And if the canadian footballing mentality remains the same, I'll stop supporting the cmnt too.

I'll happily be a euro/south American football snob because there will be nothing to look forward to here.

This is my main reason for supporting winter and de Klerk.

Not because I love them, or because I think they're brilliant but because I want them to succeed in their plans. I want the plans to succeed because I think it would be good for football in general in this city and in this country and that's what I want more than anything.

I think its ridiculous to claim that without Winter and De Klerk TFC will automatically become Wimbledon circa 1988. I think its also insulting to ignore the fact that there are teams in the MLS who play attractive football, we lost to one last night

[DangerRed]

Hey everyone, just back inbetween beers here for a quick comment: I may have said up top that some of Gordon's commentary was probably/likely sour grapes, but that was really a throw-away line. Nothing about what he said sounded genuinely bitter or sour. He was just genuinely sad for the team and sad for the fans. At least that was my read. Take it or leave it.

Also, if I'm right like I think I am, and Winter is very similar to Gullit, we're fucked for the foreseeable future. Be ready to expect West Ham-like results.

Back to drinking with the missus. G'night.

[Stryker]

1) Whether Gordon speaks the truth;
2) We should loose confidence in Winter and he should be let go;
3) We should loose confidence in Winter and still support the team and management;
4) We should protest;
5) We should stop doing something like "reduce our spending" (i.e.: not renew our tickets???);
6) Gordon is not a reliable source...as he is on his way out;
7) Those on this board should stop changing their minds (how dare they?); 8) Those who are posting today represent all those who have posted in the past and should be held responsible for all those who have posted before today; or
9) Some of the above....all of the above...none of the above?

Somebody throw me a bone over here.

Beats me man. I'm just here cause I heard they were having free sandwiches.

[ManUtd4ever]

There's now too much evidence to the contrary. Much of it is just using your own eyes and ears, what else is there to say? Winter has lost the room and isn't teaching and/or can't teach. His problems run deeper than that, the team's chemistry on the field is not good enough, and he lacks the most basic leadership/people skills (this week's example was insulting Nana after the trade in public).

Winter has lost the room? Considering that the majority of players in the locker room are now his acquisitions, and 7 of those players arrived within the last 2 weeks, I submit that your assertion is highly unlikely, and mere conjecture at this point.

Once again, Gordon's comments aren't a revelation. It was already apparent that some players weren't grasping his tactical approach. As a result, roster transactions have taken place to acquire players that Winter feels are condusive to his desired style of play.

If Winter is to be judged accordingly, it should be within the appropriate timeframe, with his players. The clock started ticking yesterday.

[DOMIN8R]

It is all they've ever done...but it's only been 4 seasons.

I know that sounds crazy but I always hoped we'd one day want to build a club that aspires to something better than we've ever had in Canada. A club that would serve as the benchmark for canadian kids to reach in an attempt to produce world class players.

When I heard that TFC wanted to implement a system to build a club in the mold of Ajax I was happy. Very happy.

Now all I've got left to do is wait and see if it's attainable.

....

If TFC pull the plug on what some call an "experiment" for the sake of results and bring back garbage soccer, I'm done.

I have to agree. I'm betting all my emotional currency on this one. For this reason - I'm willing to see it out. It will take 2-3 years. I've waited almost 5. I can wait a couple more. I think WMD aren't done. More will be traded and others brought in before the year is through. I believe in the system. I acknowledge and respect that others don't.

Eugene, you know that I think that Anselmi has to be held responsible. If he fucked this one up, I will print 100s of Anselmi must go T-Shirts and hand them up out street corners.

But first, I need to see that this run it's course. It hasn't yet. It's too soon. This is football - not skeet shooting.

Good night.

[profit89]

Re Gordon, sour grapes that's all

Re the new signings, for the first time in a long time i see potential of a good team, frings and koevermans are clearly superior in technical ability to anything we've had thus far.

[ExiledRed]

Here is where I can agree wholeheartedly.

If TFC go back to playing "athletic, technically lacking" football I'm out. Wins or no wins I'll be gone because it's a road to oblivion.

Thats ok, because if TFC dont stop playing confused, awkward football and practically bending over in front of the opposition, you'll be the only one left in the stadium. Glad you enjoy watching this parody of 'attractive posession based, dutch style football'

its not the real deal, its like fake snow during an australian christmas.

If this team and this league doesnt aspire to play a technically proficient league to rival those in south America and Europe then what's the point?

Hey, I aspire to be wealthy one day, I wont get there by dressing up in an armani suit, pretending im already succesful and hoping people believe it enough to give me money.

Moreover...I see the need to get away from "athletic, technically lacking" football if we're ever going to see canada and Canadian kids compete on the world stage.

By substituting it with inept, heartless and substandard football? I just dont get your point. We know what you want, it would be nice, but if you think thats what you're getting from this coach you're not seeing with your eyes.

By the way, this is TFC not the CMNT. Have you seen how this coach handles candian players?

So..in short...if TFC decide to revert to 80's football for the sake of short term results I'll gladly walk away from my st. And if the canadian footballing mentality remains the same, I'll stop supporting the cmnt too.

80's football? like the dutch style this is all supposed to be built upon?
again see my first point, the team will lose a lot more revenue than yours if they keep pretending dogshit is belgian chocolate.

I'll happily be a euro/south American football snob because there will be nothing to look forward to here.

...

I still dont get it, you'll stick it out only if this team continues to fail at a dutch based 4-3-3 system?

This is my main reason for supporting winter and de Klerk.

Not because I love them, or because I think they're brilliant but because I want them to succeed in their plans. I want the plans to succeed because I think it would be good for football in general in this city and in this country and that's what I want more than anything.

Like I said, Winter isnt going to give you what you want anytime soon and theres nothing....NOTHING to suggest he can give you what you want ten years from now. You may as well come back in five years and watch him failing to coach whichever collection of north american players have just arrived on his lap through the pawning system and drafts. Im sure we'll all be ready to nuke holland by then.

[nickio]

It is all they've ever done...but it's only been 4 seasons.

I know that sounds crazy but I always hoped we'd one day want to build a club that aspires to something better than we've ever had in Canada. A club that would serve as the benchmark for canadian kids to reach in an attempt to produce world class players.

When I heard that TFC wanted to implement a system to build a club in the mold of Ajax I was happy. Very happy.

Now all I've got left to do is wait and see if it's attainable.

If it is...great.

If it isnt and the alternative is the utter shit I watched in the first couple of years (or a more productive version of that garbage brand of football) then my interest in club football in Toronto will once again be gone.

If TFC pull the plug on what some call an "experiment" for the sake of results and bring back garbage soccer, I'm done.

I couldn't agree more. I feel the same, if MLSE even remotely goes back to garbage soccer that focuses on physics instead of technique, I don't have any desire to follow that.

Ajax wasn't built overnight, why should TFC all the sudden become a good team in a matter of months- Considering where we are coming from?!

I mean what did people expect? Start playing an efficient 4-3-3 with a squad that was built for track and field?

Anyone watch Mike Holmes? 80% of his work is destruction to get to the bottom of the problem. If anyone was to walk in when he is 1/3 finished and judge his performance- he would be fired everytime. Let Aron Winter build his house ground up, the right way:

One thing we have never tried in 4.5 years is keep a coach, maybe that would work?!

Gordon and his comments.. He is like a person passing by judging Mike Holmes halfway through his project.

[nickio]

ExileRed- What exactly did you expect from TFC to justify Aron's plan to you?

-A stellar season?

-A few more wins? (which we would've had if it wasn't for some bad luck and shitty reffing)

No one knows what to expect, therefore judgment is to be reserved until his contract is up, or very close to it.

Just like in any work place, if you're confused, you don't get it and and if you're incompetent- there is the door. Do you think a well respected player like Frings finds Winter's expectations confusing? I don't think any world class player with proper upbringing would!

[v00d00daddy]

I think its ridiculous to claim that without Winter and De Klerk TFC will automatically become Wimbledon circa 1988. I think its also insulting to ignore the fact that there are teams in the MLS who play attractive football, we lost to one last night

I agree. That's why I didn't claim that anything like that would happen. If we built towards fielding a team like Dallas or rsl I'd be happy.

And I'm not saying that winter or de klerk are the saviours.

I just wanna see if their plans will work.

If the club is not willing to do that and, instead, decide to hire someone who is going to promote long ball, kick and chase, long throws into the box at every opportunity, altheticism over skill (ie: the coaches we've had up to now) then I'm out.

If they fire winter and hire some guy who will have us playing attractive soccer AND getting results...then I'm in. I just don't think it's time to pull the plug on the current guys and what they're trying to do.